I have thought about this for a little while and I’m sure someone must have looked into it but I’m going to ask the question anyway:
If in bodybuilding people are looking for symmetry and proportion, are powerlifters looking for a similar thing except based on strength?
Should there be a basic strength ratio between say the hamstrings and quads (posterior chain) and the quads e.g. if I can press 93kg single leg press should there be a number I should be able to leg curl. Similarly when considering lifts like bench should i be able to bent over row the same/more/less?
I’ve been working on neanderthal no more and am on week 4, but I was thinking that if imbalances are ironed out and strength levels then maintain and improved upon equally there shouldn’t be future issues with imbalances AND performance should improve more consistently?
I’m not sure if there is an ideal strength ratio for body parts because the strength ratio would depend on body type, stance/grip width, movement mechanics, etc. You can see top level lifters in all weight classes using wide, medium and close stance squat; wide, medium and close grip bench; and sumo (wide and close) and conventional deadlift. Each variation will have differing levels of emphasis on each muscle group. People typically choose the variation that they are strongest in based on their body type and leverages. It wouldn’t make sense, at least for me, to choose a variation I suck at just so I can achieve a strength ratio similar to someone else, unless that person was my identical twin and a world record holder.
Don’t worry about that, it’s a waste of time. Unless you’re moving heavy weights and have some type of glaring imbalance that’s putting you at serious risk, there’s no reason to waste your time trying to legcurl 43.2863% of your Legpress 14RM for 5 sets of 12 reps.
I mean on the legs I guess that stands up, if you’re working slight variations of the deadlifts and squat, you should in theory work all the right muscles anyway (and the lagging ones will catch up), and I guess if you work some bent over rows etc. to complement your bench it should all be fine.
I only really started investing serious thought into my training in the last 4-5 months or so and had to see a physio as the shoulder was giving me jip when benching. Anterior pelvic tilt and tight pec minor (and therefore my lats weren’t as strong as they could have been) were the main things he picked up on.
First 6 weeks was a cutting program (yeah I’m also trying to lose some body fat) and now neanderthal no more. Hopefully once that’s done I can add some plates on the big lifts. Currently at 106kg for bench, 164kg for deadlift and 137kg for squat (1rm based on bodybuilding.com’s body space tracker app but its probably not that accurate). Hoping that 5/3/1 can take me up to 240kg for the squat and dead, and 180 for the bench by around about the end of May.
I was wondering about the ratios because of figuring out some assistance work to make sure everything is staying right proportionallyish.
[quote]johned87 wrote:
I mean on the legs I guess that stands up, if you’re working slight variations of the deadlifts and squat, you should in theory work all the right muscles anyway (and the lagging ones will catch up), and I guess if you work some bent over rows etc. to complement your bench it should all be fine.
I only really started investing serious thought into my training in the last 4-5 months or so and had to see a physio as the shoulder was giving me hip when benching, anterior pelvic tilt and tight pec minor (and therefore my lats weren’t as strong as they could have been).
Thanks for the advice though.
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What you do should have purpose. I don’t see a point in doing a lift only if the reason is that it provides balance. Of course you have to experiment with different lifts taking the chance that it could be wasted effort or something that really works. It makes sense to continue doing it if you know it will contribute most to your strength gains, bring up a weakness or prevent an injury that you have been prone to. You have to learn why you lift a certain way, what your strengths and weaknesses are, how the muscles work together and honestly assess yourself if you want to make the fastest progress. Always keep in mind that the body works as a system.
Edit: On a final note, I think there is a strong correlation between strong stabilizer muscles and good form. I don’t see how you can do too much back and core bracing work at this point in your training.
[quote]johned87 wrote:
Currently at 106kg for bench, 164kg for deadlift and 137kg for squat (1rm based on bodybuilding.com’s body space tracker app but its probably not that accurate). Hoping that 5/3/1 can take me up to 240kg for the squat and dead, and 180 for the bench by around about the end of May.
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Hoping is nice, but these are not the most realistic expectations. I seriously doubt you’ll be adding 250kg to your total in 6 months. There’s a big difference between benching 100kg and 180kg. Almost any healthy adult male can achieve a 106kg bench press with proper training. Almost none can achieve 180. The same principle applies to your deadlift and squat goals, although that chasm is not quite as large.
Flipcollar did provide you a harsh truth. The one balance you do need is being both optimistic and realistic. I doubt you will reach the goals you’re hoping for but I would be glad to see you prove us wrong. At this point in your lifting, keep in mind that adding 2.5-5kg per month is huge.
You also need to think long term - adding 2.5-5kg per month for 12 months is better than adding 5-8kg per month for only 3 months out of the year. The point being that you focus on consistent progress long term and not always on huge PRs all the time.
You don’t think any grown man could bench 180 kg raw and drugfree with proper training and a large amount of bodyweight gain? I’m not trying to condescend, just asking for your opinion on the matter.
[quote]johned87 wrote:
Currently at 106kg for bench, 164kg for deadlift and 137kg for squat (1rm based on bodybuilding.com’s body space tracker app but its probably not that accurate). Hoping that 5/3/1 can take me up to 240kg for the squat and dead, and 180 for the bench by around about the end of May.
[/quote]
Hoping is nice, but these are not the most realistic expectations. I seriously doubt you’ll be adding 250kg to your total in 6 months. There’s a big difference between benching 100kg and 180kg. Almost any healthy adult male can achieve a 106kg bench press with proper training. Almost none can achieve 180. The same principle applies to your deadlift and squat goals, although that chasm is not quite as large.[/quote]
I get what you are saying here, but the first time I sat under the and benched (since school) I pushed 100kg for 3 for 3 or 4 sets. 106kg with proper training is reasonable for a healthy adult male, no doubt. I’m pushing it at a caloric deficit and only benching once a week. Maybe 180kg is a lofty goal in that time, not gonna stop me busting my ass to get there though.
[quote]DaneMuscle wrote:
You don’t think any grown man could bench 180 kg raw and drugfree with proper training and a large amount of bodyweight gain? I’m not trying to condescend, just asking for your opinion on the matter.[/quote]
No, I don’t. I believe that a larger percentage of the population would be achieving this if it were possible for everyone. The fact is that a small fraction of 1% of healthy adult males will ever achieve this in their lifetime, and that includes guys that ARE using steroids. If you eliminate the PED users, I’d bet that the number is somewhere in the realm of 1 in 10,000 people who get to a 180kg bench.
In my own experience, I’ve seen way too many people with reasonably good diets and reasonably good training who fell waaaaaaaay short of this. Guys that plateaued around 100kg indefinitely. I don’t believe that if these guys went from reasonably good diet and training to perfect diet and training they would then have the ability to reach 180kg.
AS someone who has been around and working with Elite Athletes for 20 years now, you bring up an excellent point about balance.
Yes, Bodybuilders look for all out symmetry, size and shred. Powerlifters should also look for strength balances between muscle groups i.e. protagonist/ antagonistic muscle groups. This will help to MINIMIZE the potential for additional injury.
One thing I have noticed since first coming to this site in 2007 is just how UnBalanced the average american male is. That was also the year I started working with Olympic runners, some who not only lift but also who use a GHR. Why? Because they understand the value of having balanced muscle groups. The last three years I have been working with Joe Average as a trainer.It is amazing how many of them can barely or just manage to bench more than they weigh, yet you could’nt get them to do a proper bodyweight squat much less bodyweight deadlift ! It goes back i think to the “ooh, chicks dig chest and biceps” so thats all i’ll work on mentality.
I work the Squat, Row and Bench 2x per week with the deadlift being worked only twice per month, both times heavy.
I do my best to keep my body balanced bottom to top and back to front. Luckily in 7 years of harder lifting I have had no injuries.
I wish that for all of those that Lift with Conviction !
I would also have to agree with FlipCollar on the 180kg Bench. A drug free lifter is going to have to put in years and maybe even a solid Decade+ to get to that level. Not saying it is not possible. Saying that in all likelyhood it is very improbable.
Take a look around at places like 24hrFitness, LaFitness et al, and really pay attention to what people are lifting. Are these hardcore like IronSport or SuperTraining, no. Thats the point, these places outnumber the hardcore about 10,000: 1. Those who lift heavy and hard are few and far between…sadly enough.
I have been training benchpress for 7 years and and still can’t press 180kg. I was very close last friday, but still didn’t make it. To put things in perspective, I was able to benchpress 120kg withing my FIRST YEAR of training. The last 60kg took me over 6 years.
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
AS someone who has been around and working with Elite Athletes for 20 years now, you bring up an excellent point about balance.
Yes, Bodybuilders look for all out symmetry, size and shred. Powerlifters should also look for strength balances between muscle groups i.e. protagonist/ antagonistic muscle groups. This will help to MINIMIZE the potential for additional injury.
One thing I have noticed since first coming to this site in 2007 is just how UnBalanced the average american male is. That was also the year I started working with Olympic runners, some who not only lift but also who use a GHR. Why? Because they understand the value of having balanced muscle groups. The last three years I have been working with Joe Average as a trainer.It is amazing how many of them can barely or just manage to bench more than they weigh, yet you could’nt get them to do a proper bodyweight squat much less bodyweight deadlift ! It goes back i think to the “ooh, chicks dig chest and biceps” so thats all i’ll work on mentality.
I work the Squat, Row and Bench 2x per week with the deadlift being worked only twice per month, both times heavy.
I do my best to keep my body balanced bottom to top and back to front. Luckily in 7 years of harder lifting I have had no injuries.
I wish that for all of those that Lift with Conviction ![/quote]
Thanks for this response, this is exactly the kind of thing I had been thinking about. I assume the average Joe has the same kind of issues I have been dealing with (anterior pelvic tilt, forward kyphosis, excessive pronation etc etc). The reason I was thinking about it is both for minimising the risk of injury, but also potential increases in strength.
I get that it is an unlikely goal and thanks for the advice. Perhaps the odds are stacked against me (especially as there aren’t really any “hardcore” gyms in Edinburgh), but it’s not gonna stop me going for it.
But related to that, if the coaches writing on T-Nation are saying that 1.5 times bodyweight is the goal for benching and twice is the goal for deads and squat why shouldn’t it be achievable for me? (honest question).
I’m currently weighing in at 138.4kg at 22% body fat, at 6’4". Which would make my lean mass about 107.5kg, so why shouldn’t it be possible?
Getting from a 106kg to 180kg bench in 6 months isn’t happening unless you have benched a lot more than 106 kg in the past. If it’s a long term goal then it’s possible. If you’re 200+ lbs and have trained smart and have diet and recovery in check, the goal is reasonable. If you’re under 200 lbs and you don’t have great leverages then you better be willing to put on muscle (to get to 200 lbs or whatever it takes) to even consider the goal.
It just depends on what you’re willing to do to reach that goal even without PEDs. Is it extremely rare for a 150 lb person to hit a 400 lb bench? Yes, Tony Conyers has the drug tested world record bench press (full meet) of 402 at 148. For every other lightweight lifter in the world they have to add weight to increase their odds. Is the person willing to pack on 50+ lbs if that were necessary to reach that 400 lb goal? A goal of hitting a ‘400 lb bench at X weight’ is entirely different from hitting a ‘400 lb bench’. Make a goal and figure out a realistic plan to get there if you really want it. That requires moving up in weight class for lightweights.
Edit: OP, I think the goal is achievable for you given your body weight if you train smart and do everything necessary to get there. It just depends how bad you want it. If you keep making bad choices for training and aren’t learning what your body needs then you may need a trainer that has worked with clients achieving that same goal. I have a friend that 2.5 years ago never trained, wasn’t very active and weighed around 270 lbs. After getting into lifting his two goals were to get under 200 lbs and hit a 405 lb bench. He hit both goals and got that 2xBW bench recently.
OP: As I said in my first response, I have serious doubts about you reaching your goal in the timeframe you suggested. I did not say it was impossible. You would have to be quite the outlier to hit this goal in the timeframe you mentioned, but of course outliers do exist. Given a longer timeframe, my response would have been different as well.
I also doubt your lean body mass is as high as you think it is. Most people underestimate their bodyfat. Again, I could be wrong, but if your lean mass is already 107kg, I would expect you to be bench pressing significantly more.
I would suggest that your goals of 1.5x bodyweight bench, and 2x squat and deadlift are much more easily attained at a lower bodyfat percentage. Most good lifters who compete in weight classes below SHW tend to be fairly lean.
lift206: your friend is impressive, and without a doubt a statistical anomaly. Losing 70 lbs and bench pressing 405 in less than 3 years, with no prior training, is a hell of an accomplishment. Do you happen to have before and after pictures of the guy? That would be one of the best before/after transformations I’ve ever seen.
Now that he has accomplished his goal of benching 405 at 200, I suggested that he go for the WA USAPL state record of beating 441 at 198. I have a feeling he’ll take a shot at it. He said he wants to get his squat and DL up as well (probably at 400 for both) so I think he may be interested in competing in the future.
Also, to get to that point he did have a trainer helping him along the way. Having a great trainer significantly reduced the learning curve and allowed him to progress much more quickly.
