Strength Ratios for Bodyparts

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DaneMuscle wrote:
You don’t think any grown man could bench 180 kg raw and drugfree with proper training and a large amount of bodyweight gain? I’m not trying to condescend, just asking for your opinion on the matter.[/quote]

No, I don’t. I believe that a larger percentage of the population would be achieving this if it were possible for everyone. The fact is that a small fraction of 1% of healthy adult males will ever achieve this in their lifetime, and that includes guys that ARE using steroids. If you eliminate the PED users, I’d bet that the number is somewhere in the realm of 1 in 10,000 people who get to a 180kg bench.

In my own experience, I’ve seen way too many people with reasonably good diets and reasonably good training who fell waaaaaaaay short of this. Guys that plateaued around 100kg indefinitely. I don’t believe that if these guys went from reasonably good diet and training to perfect diet and training they would then have the ability to reach 180kg.[/quote]
Plateaued indefinitely at 100 kg? How much did they weigh?

I’d agree that it’s mainly the time frame that is the issue. Adding 75 kilos in a year would be amazing, in six months? I’d say probably not. I benched 295(about 135kg) at my last meet and would be ecstatic to hit 355(160kg) at the same meet a year later.

22

That’s fantastic!

If he wants to make a push for a record, he may want to hold off on adding too much size to his legs. I don’t know how tall he is, but it might be hard to stay under 198 and add 40 lbs to his bench while also increasing his squat and dl.

23

[quote]johned87 wrote:
I have thought about this for a little while and I’m sure someone must have looked into it but I’m going to ask the question anyway:

If in bodybuilding people are looking for symmetry and proportion, are powerlifters looking for a similar thing except based on strength?

Should there be a basic strength ratio between say the hamstrings and quads (posterior chain) and the quads

To answer your question, yes, unilateral strength ratios have been established using an isokinetic device (not what you would use in bb or pl, but, to answer your question). If you’re curious on the data, they are all published in a book by Dr. George Davies.

24

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
That’s fantastic!

If he wants to make a push for a record, he may want to hold off on adding too much size to his legs. I don’t know how tall he is, but it might be hard to stay under 198 and add 40 lbs to his bench while also increasing his squat and dl.[/quote]

Yeah you’re right about that. I’ll relay the message next time I see him. I think he’s around 6’1".

25

[quote]tylerkeen42 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DaneMuscle wrote:
You don’t think any grown man could bench 180 kg raw and drugfree with proper training and a large amount of bodyweight gain? I’m not trying to condescend, just asking for your opinion on the matter.[/quote]

No, I don’t. I believe that a larger percentage of the population would be achieving this if it were possible for everyone. The fact is that a small fraction of 1% of healthy adult males will ever achieve this in their lifetime, and that includes guys that ARE using steroids. If you eliminate the PED users, I’d bet that the number is somewhere in the realm of 1 in 10,000 people who get to a 180kg bench.

In my own experience, I’ve seen way too many people with reasonably good diets and reasonably good training who fell waaaaaaaay short of this. Guys that plateaued around 100kg indefinitely. I don’t believe that if these guys went from reasonably good diet and training to perfect diet and training they would then have the ability to reach 180kg.[/quote]
Plateaued indefinitely at 100 kg? How much did they weigh?

I’d agree that it’s mainly the time frame that is the issue. Adding 75 kilos in a year would be amazing, in six months? I’d say probably not. I benched 295(about 135kg) at my last meet and would be ecstatic to hit 355(160kg) at the same meet a year later. [/quote]

I’ll use a specific example. I had a trainer partner who I lifted with consistently through our first 3 years in college. He weighed around 180-190 I believe… this was 10 years ago so it’s hard to remember for sure. But not a huge guy. He was also soft at that weight. Average height.

Anyway, when we started lifting together, our strength levels were very comparable. We ate about 90% of our meals together, same basic stuff in the school cafeteria, we partied together, basic lived the same lifestyle. 3 years later, I had reached a bench press in the mid 200s (lbs… I’m tired of talking in kilos) and he was still in the 185-200 range. He never bench pressed more than 2 plates for a single, even several years later.

The point is, our conditions were very, very similar, but our results were very different. Not everyone responds well to weight training.

I agree on your expectations for yourself. A jump from 295 to 355 in 1 year would be substantial, but it’s a reasonable goal. I’m pressing 335 right now, and would LOVE to press anything close to 400 in a year, although I doubt I’ll get there at a sub-200 bodyweight.

26

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
That’s fantastic!

If he wants to make a push for a record, he may want to hold off on adding too much size to his legs. I don’t know how tall he is, but it might be hard to stay under 198 and add 40 lbs to his bench while also increasing his squat and dl.[/quote]

Yeah you’re right about that. I’ll relay the message next time I see him. I think he’s around 6’1".[/quote]

oh wow. That’s really tall for the 198 class.

27

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]lift206 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
That’s fantastic!

If he wants to make a push for a record, he may want to hold off on adding too much size to his legs. I don’t know how tall he is, but it might be hard to stay under 198 and add 40 lbs to his bench while also increasing his squat and dl.[/quote]

Yeah you’re right about that. I’ll relay the message next time I see him. I think he’s around 6’1".[/quote]

oh wow. That’s really tall for the 198 class.[/quote]

I took a guess and that was on the high side lol. He’s probably closer to 5’11". I don’t see him that often. We knew of each other during undergrad and now work for the same company.

28

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

I’ll use a specific example. I had a trainer partner who I lifted with consistently through our first 3 years in college. He weighed around 180-190 I believe… this was 10 years ago so it’s hard to remember for sure. But not a huge guy. He was also soft at that weight. Average height.

Anyway, when we started lifting together, our strength levels were very comparable. We ate about 90% of our meals together, same basic stuff in the school cafeteria, we partied together, basic lived the same lifestyle. 3 years later, I had reached a bench press in the mid 200s (lbs… I’m tired of talking in kilos) and he was still in the 185-200 range. He never bench pressed more than 2 plates for a single, even several years later.

The point is, our conditions were very, very similar, but our results were very different. Not everyone responds well to weight training.

I agree on your expectations for yourself. A jump from 295 to 355 in 1 year would be substantial, but it’s a reasonable goal. I’m pressing 335 right now, and would LOVE to press anything close to 400 in a year, although I doubt I’ll get there at a sub-200 bodyweight. [/quote]

Although you two had a similar lifestyle it doesn’t mean he reacted to all the stresses in the same way, similar to people having different perceptions of the same event. You two may have had the same training routine but it may not have been ideal for him. You also have to take into account his bench technique. Did he have full body tension every single rep he executed? Were his reps consistent? Did he always grind through workouts? He probably wasn’t doing something right and if he never figured it out on his own then I bet a strength coach could have helped him out.

IMO, the genetic strength potential for the average athlete is quite high. People just don’t maximize the chance to reach it, which can be attributed to programming, diet, recovery, technique, consistency, patience, self-evaluation, stress management, motivation, mental barriers, etc. People who take what Matt Kroc said in yesterday’s article to heart are likely the ones that get to a high level. It’s understandable if people prioritize other things over getting stronger but it does annoy me when people make excuses for why things aren’t possible. This is not a shot at you, Flipcollar, just how I feel in general. It’s not possible for me to accept that a healthy 180-190 lb male with absolutely no health problems has done absolutely everything right to maximize his bench performance and can only achieve a 225 lb max.

29

lift206. You also have to take a persons leverages into account. I am 6’1" but have a 4" Ape Index. this puts me at a BENCH disadvantage but at an Advantage for the DEADLIFT(455max@185, Squat 385max) but my bench max is a paultry 245. Now also take into account that since age 13 i have been a consistent competitive Cyclist. Upper body mass is NOT recommended !

One must always take into account a persons personal history, family history and body proportions.
I do agree with you that the strength potential is there. Like Winny the Pooh said “Everyone can, its just most Dont”
How many of us here would stick to a 5/3/1 program for our entire High School years if we could go back ?
Instead P.otential is wasted on the young…as is youth.

Anyway.

30

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
lift206. You also have to take a persons leverages into account. I am 6’1" but have a 4" Ape Index. this puts me at a BENCH disadvantage but at an Advantage for the DEADLIFT(455max@185, Squat 385max) but my bench max is a paultry 245. Now also take into account that since age 13 i have been a consistent competitive Cyclist. Upper body mass is NOT recommended !

One must always take into account a persons personal history, family history and body proportions.
I do agree with you that the strength potential is there. Like Winny the Pooh said “Everyone can, its just most Dont”
How many of us here would stick to a 5/3/1 program for our entire High School years if we could go back ?
Instead P.otential is wasted on the young…as is youth.

Anyway. [/quote]

That is true that leverages have to be considered but in the context of maximum potential I would think that your numbers would look much better if you filled out a much higher weight class. It would be much easier for you to have a legitimate shot at 2xBW bench if you were in the 220 or higher weight class. Unless you’re a Usain Bolt, Ed Coan, Michael Phelps, etc. the general trends do apply. If you were to tell me getting a 1.5xBW bench is impossible for you then I wouldn’t believe you because you didn’t do everything possible to achieve it; unless you had some health disorder that prevented you from eating enough to pack on 40 lbs in 5 years. I am assuming you’re in your 20s and age isn’t much of a constraint so I apologize if I’m wrong. But for you cycling and other things are more important than a 1.5+xBW bench so I understand why you won’t pursue it. I’m just arguing that it’s possible.

At my height of 5’8", I would have weak numbers compared to my peers if I stuck to my high school weight at 135. Currently I feel comfortable competing at 165 because I’m right on weight but I know my ideal weight class where I’ll perform best compared to my peers will ultimately be 181. It’s going to be a bitch having to fill out that weight class while being lean to be most competitive (getting to around 187 lbs with less than 10% bodyfat) but I’m still going to do what’s necessary to put myself in a position to reach my potential. Who knows, maybe I’ll be in the 198 class by my 30s. Height and weight proportionality are clues left by lifters that have already gotten there. It’s extremely rare for people to break that trend.

31

[quote]lift206 wrote:
It’s not possible for me to accept that a healthy 180-190 lb male with absolutely no health problems has done absolutely everything right to maximize his bench performance and can only achieve a 225 lb max.[/quote]

Right, I totally agree with this. It’s not the claim I’m making. As I said, he didn’t do everything right. I’m suggesting that I don’t see what he could have done to change his programming so substantially that he could have ended up at a 405 bench press. I’m not suggesting that 225 was his best possible lift given his genetic disposition. I would imagine someone like him would likely have reached something in the low to mid 300’s if given enough time and ideal training and nutrition.

32

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]lift206 wrote:
It’s not possible for me to accept that a healthy 180-190 lb male with absolutely no health problems has done absolutely everything right to maximize his bench performance and can only achieve a 225 lb max.[/quote]

Right, I totally agree with this. It’s not the claim I’m making. As I said, he didn’t do everything right. I’m suggesting that I don’t see what he could have done to change his programming so substantially that he could have ended up at a 405 bench press. I’m not suggesting that 225 was his best possible lift given his genetic disposition. I would imagine someone like him would likely have reached something in the low to mid 300’s if given enough time and ideal training and nutrition.[/quote]

I guess I misunderstood you. That makes a lot more sense.

33

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I also doubt your lean body mass is as high as you think it is. Most people underestimate their bodyfat. Again, I could be wrong, but if your lean mass is already 107kg, I would expect you to be bench pressing significantly more.

I would suggest that your goals of 1.5x bodyweight bench, and 2x squat and deadlift are much more easily attained at a lower bodyfat percentage. Most good lifters who compete in weight classes below SHW tend to be fairly lean.[/quote]

I get where you’re coming from, perhaps the timeframe was a little out of whack, and that probably comes mostly from naivety when it comes to the strength game. Experience begets experience and I can only come so far training on my own (without a partner or someone to coach me along) which is pretty much why I’m on here in the first place. I do have the ability to assimilate the knowledge but perhaps I overestimated my ability to get there.

In reference to the lean mass calculations the BF measurements were done using accumeasure callipers (which aren’t going to be 100% accurate) and I check sizes of other body parts regularly. For reference each of my thighs is about 29" around (buying trousers is a b****) but I don’t have that much mass on my chest.

34

[quote]Discobolus wrote:

Charles Poliquin addresses strength ratios in this article. [/quote]

Thanks for that, this is pretty much what I was looking for.

35

[quote]lift206 wrote:
Edit: OP, I think the goal is achievable for you given your body weight if you train smart and do everything necessary to get there. It just depends how bad you want it. If you keep making bad choices for training and aren’t learning what your body needs then you may need a trainer that has worked with clients achieving that same goal. I have a friend that 2.5 years ago never trained, wasn’t very active and weighed around 270 lbs. After getting into lifting his two goals were to get under 200 lbs and hit a 405 lb bench. He hit both goals and got that 2xBW bench recently.[/quote]

I’d be interested to know how he achieved both at the same time, considering it is what I’m trying to do.

36

[quote]johned87 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I also doubt your lean body mass is as high as you think it is. Most people underestimate their bodyfat. Again, I could be wrong, but if your lean mass is already 107kg, I would expect you to be bench pressing significantly more.

I would suggest that your goals of 1.5x bodyweight bench, and 2x squat and deadlift are much more easily attained at a lower bodyfat percentage. Most good lifters who compete in weight classes below SHW tend to be fairly lean.[/quote]

I get where you’re coming from, perhaps the timeframe was a little out of whack, and that probably comes mostly from naivety when it comes to the strength game. Experience begets experience and I can only come so far training on my own (without a partner or someone to coach me along) which is pretty much why I’m on here in the first place. I do have the ability to assimilate the knowledge but perhaps I overestimated my ability to get there.

In reference to the lean mass calculations the BF measurements were done using accumeasure callipers (which aren’t going to be 100% accurate) and I check sizes of other body parts regularly. For reference each of my thighs is about 29" around (buying trousers is a b****) but I don’t have that much mass on my chest.[/quote]
Skin calipers can be fairly inaccurate, especially about about 15% or so. I highly doubt you are only 22% at over 300 lbs. You should post some pics ( but make sure to include your shoe). As to your goals, I think they are reasonable long term goals, but if you think you will hit them by May, you will be sorely disappointed. Whatever your gains have been in the last few months, expect your rate of increase to slow as you get stronger. It takes far less effort to go from 100kg to 120 kg bench than from 120 to 140, and so on. Also, a double BW bench is much more common in the lower weight classes, not in the higher classes.

37

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]johned87 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I also doubt your lean body mass is as high as you think it is. Most people underestimate their bodyfat. Again, I could be wrong, but if your lean mass is already 107kg, I would expect you to be bench pressing significantly more.

I would suggest that your goals of 1.5x bodyweight bench, and 2x squat and deadlift are much more easily attained at a lower bodyfat percentage. Most good lifters who compete in weight classes below SHW tend to be fairly lean.[/quote]

I get where you’re coming from, perhaps the timeframe was a little out of whack, and that probably comes mostly from naivety when it comes to the strength game. Experience begets experience and I can only come so far training on my own (without a partner or someone to coach me along) which is pretty much why I’m on here in the first place. I do have the ability to assimilate the knowledge but perhaps I overestimated my ability to get there.

In reference to the lean mass calculations the BF measurements were done using accumeasure callipers (which aren’t going to be 100% accurate) and I check sizes of other body parts regularly. For reference each of my thighs is about 29" around (buying trousers is a b****) but I don’t have that much mass on my chest.[/quote]
Skin calipers can be fairly inaccurate, especially about about 15% or so. I highly doubt you are only 22% at over 300 lbs. You should post some pics ( but make sure to include your shoe). As to your goals, I think they are reasonable long term goals, but if you think you will hit them by May, you will be sorely disappointed. Whatever your gains have been in the last few months, expect your rate of increase to slow as you get stronger. It takes far less effort to go from 100kg to 120 kg bench than from 120 to 140, and so on. Also, a double BW bench is much more common in the lower weight classes, not in the higher classes. [/quote]

22%? Oh boy. Yeah, it’s going to be significantly higher, probably more like 40%. Even that would put him at 180LBM, which is being generous, given the lifting numbers (Unless he’s like 6’5).

I guess it doesn’t matter though. If you lose weight while lifting, then BF will go down. The actual % isn’t really useful to know.

And OP, you need to make weekly/bi-weekly goals. Lose 1-4lbs. Put 5lbs on your bench. Whatever. Those “mini goals” add up. Worrying about a double bodyweight press at this time isn’t reasonable. And understand that getting lean is going to take a long time.

38

[quote]goochadamg wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]johned87 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I also doubt your lean body mass is as high as you think it is. Most people underestimate their bodyfat. Again, I could be wrong, but if your lean mass is already 107kg, I would expect you to be bench pressing significantly more.

I would suggest that your goals of 1.5x bodyweight bench, and 2x squat and deadlift are much more easily attained at a lower bodyfat percentage. Most good lifters who compete in weight classes below SHW tend to be fairly lean.[/quote]

I get where you’re coming from, perhaps the timeframe was a little out of whack, and that probably comes mostly from naivety when it comes to the strength game. Experience begets experience and I can only come so far training on my own (without a partner or someone to coach me along) which is pretty much why I’m on here in the first place. I do have the ability to assimilate the knowledge but perhaps I overestimated my ability to get there.

In reference to the lean mass calculations the BF measurements were done using accumeasure callipers (which aren’t going to be 100% accurate) and I check sizes of other body parts regularly. For reference each of my thighs is about 29" around (buying trousers is a b****) but I don’t have that much mass on my chest.[/quote]
Skin calipers can be fairly inaccurate, especially about about 15% or so. I highly doubt you are only 22% at over 300 lbs. You should post some pics ( but make sure to include your shoe). As to your goals, I think they are reasonable long term goals, but if you think you will hit them by May, you will be sorely disappointed. Whatever your gains have been in the last few months, expect your rate of increase to slow as you get stronger. It takes far less effort to go from 100kg to 120 kg bench than from 120 to 140, and so on. Also, a double BW bench is much more common in the lower weight classes, not in the higher classes. [/quote]

22%? Oh boy. Yeah, it’s going to be significantly higher, probably more like 40%. Even that would put him at 180LBM, which is being generous, given the lifting numbers (Unless he’s like 6’5).

I guess it doesn’t matter though. If you lose weight while lifting, then BF will go down. The actual % isn’t really useful to know.

And OP, you need to make weekly/bi-weekly goals. Lose 1-4lbs. Put 5lbs on your bench. Whatever. Those “mini goals” add up. Worrying about a double bodyweight press at this time isn’t reasonable. And understand that getting lean is going to take a long time. [/quote]

I am 6’4", and I know calipers aren’t that accurate, but they aren’t off by 18%.

39

[quote]johned87 wrote:

I am 6’4", and I know calipers aren’t that accurate, but they aren’t off by 18%.
[/quote]
Probably by 8-12%.

40

[quote]johned87 wrote:

I am 6’4", and I know calipers aren’t that accurate, but they aren’t off by 18%.
[/quote]
Probably off by 8-12%