Straight/Cross: Pushing Off the Leg vs Turning Hip Over

Was happy the other day that I reached a new point in my technique, but it also brought some questions with it.

I’ve always gotten great power out of my right hand, and I’ve always been pleased with how fast I can throw it. But my technique used to be that I’d not only turn the hip over, but also explode/push off the rear leg as well. The thinking being that I thought this would get more power. However as I started facing more experienced fighters I started to notice by the time I was firing the right, they were bouncing out of the way and pushing off the leg left me in a position where I was flat footed and made chasing an opponent feel awkward.

Recently I’ve changed to focusing on just turning the hip over and moving fowards on the balls of my feet rather then trying to generate power off the leg. I’ve felt much better and can’t say I’ve noticed much difference in power. It’s also meant I’ve been able to get out of the way of return punches quicker.

Just wondering how everyone else likes to use their cross/straight?

The straight right and the cross are more of pivots than trying to clean and jerk, it seems like you’ve already sorted that out though. Anyway, I change the power of my cross as a fight progresses. I start it off light for three reasons: it’s easier to time someone, easier to parry a shot/feel them out, and they’ll usually think you’ve a weak right hand and will disregard it after a few punches. Then when you put something behind the cross you can usually catch them off-guard.

Are you talking about leading with the right, or as a follow up strike to a jab?

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Are you talking about leading with the right, or as a follow up strike to a jab?[/quote]

Either or.

When I hit mits I’m putting power into it, turning the hip, planting the foot, and blasting away. When sparring I’m not really trying to put much power into it so I just throw it quick and don’t really plant and push from the rear foot. I can see the use in both. I think it’s like your jab, sometimes it’s just putting it out there, and sometimes it’s to f someone up.

I’m going to go against beershoes on this one. I don’t have really quick feet, so when I put the big right out there it’s always to do damage. I set it up in several different ways, but ideally they don’t know it’s coming until my glove is on their face.

What I do change up is the setup. I’ll lead with one jab, two jabs, a jab and pause, feint the left hook, or even just two standalone rights in a row. Anything to change up the tempo and not fall into predictable combos. I’ve had particular success once I connect two or three left hooks in driving into the right cross from a left hook feint. You catch a guy starting to flinch back from the left, then the next one isn’t real and he leans right into the cross while trying to avoid the hook. I like controlling the center of the ring and making him rotate around me, and the hook feint to cross can drive him straight back into a corner if you smell blood and want to drive in for the kill. Obviously, you have to be controlling the tempo and have the other guy respecting your punches to make this work.

I know my was isn’t the common way to use it, and I certainly wouldn’t call it the “correct” way, but it works for me so far. Maybe I’ll change my mind if I start fighting at a higher level, but the way I fight I don’t see much value in committing to a straight right or right cross without putting enough behind it to end the fight.

I don’t like my left cross for one reason, and that’s because it’s the shoulder that pops out. So if I was in a confrontation (don’t really spar much anymore), I would REALLY hesitate to throw it.

That being said, I never used it in sparring as a light punch- if I’m throwing the left, all my weight is going to be behind it because even though I’m that open for a counter, I want to try to end the damn fight right there. And I know that my left HURTS.

But, I was always much more of a hooker- my right is by far my strongest punch.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I was always much more of a hooker- [/quote]

You son of a bitch … =D

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Are you talking about leading with the right, or as a follow up strike to a jab?[/quote]

Either or.[/quote]

Ok, well first understand that the rear leg is acting as a brace or “drive leg” during a straight right/cross. It’s main purpose is to allow you to generate a forward force without being knocked backwards by the equal and opposite force which you encounter when you hit a solid target (Newton’s 3rd law).

You want to be up on the ball of that foot so as to engage the maximum lower body musculature possible when you land the punch and your hip does “turn over” as you assume this position. Don’t over rotate though.

If you want maximum power out of the rear hand you must get your body mass moving into the target and in order to do so, you must push off of your rear foot to propel yourself forwards into the target (as you step into it). You also want rotation and inclination. The degree to which you maximize power though is dependent upon the situation. You would never want to throw a maximum power rear hand against pretty much anything other than someone who is “out on their feet” or seriously hurt and really not any danger of counterattacking you.

If you are leading with the rear hand, then you’ve pretty much gotta be taking a step forward with your lead foot, and thus pushing off the rear leg (you may or may not be utilizing much rotation or inclination though). If you are following up a jab, then you may not wind up taking a step (again depending on the scenario and the amount of power you want to generate) and instead just turn the hip over.

Hope that makes sense LOL. It’s late.

the above post is spot on. Strikes are about kinetic linkage. There are many techniques within a technique itself if that makes sense. For example a punch is comprised of many smaller techniques. Really analyzing those (with videotape) helped me correct alot of flaws.

You want your body weight going forward into the strike. This is the princepal behind alot of Jack dempsey’s power (he wrote about it) and was later adopted be bruce lee. Modern day competition taekwondo also utilizes this to increase kicking power and speed. Moving your body weight into the strike is done by properly pushing off the rear foot

For me, it seems like “flicking” my rear heel out is what initiates the hip rotation, leading to the power…I stay on the balls of my feet and when I throw the cross my rear foot rotates about 60 degrees away from my body, in sync with the punch.

I tried consciously pushing off my back foot but didn’t like it…it felt too much like I was leaping into my punch. I suppose if I was throwing a haymaker cross it could come in handy, but it seems like it would take to long to recover from if I missed.

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
For me, it seems like “flicking” my rear heel out is what initiates the hip rotation, leading to the power…I stay on the balls of my feet and when I throw the cross my rear foot rotates about 60 degrees away from my body, in sync with the punch.

I tried consciously pushing off my back foot but didn’t like it…it felt too much like I was leaping into my punch. I suppose if I was throwing a haymaker cross it could come in handy, but it seems like it would take to long to recover from if I missed.[/quote]

I was going to reply, but the outrageous awesomeness of your avatar made me forget what I was thinking.

[quote]666Rich wrote:
the above post is spot on. Strikes are about kinetic linkage. There are many techniques within a technique itself if that makes sense. For example a punch is comprised of many smaller techniques. Really analyzing those (with videotape) helped me correct alot of flaws.

You want your body weight going forward into the strike. This is the princepal behind alot of Jack dempsey’s power (he wrote about it) and was later adopted be bruce lee. Modern day competition taekwondo also utilizes this to increase kicking power and speed. Moving your body weight into the strike is done by properly pushing off the rear foot[/quote]

I agree with most of what you write- you’re like the only dude on the forums I can say that about haha.

More people should read Dempsey’s book. It’s truly a forgotten treatise on punching even though I can never quite understand the “fall step” he describes when throwing his stiff jab.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
For me, it seems like “flicking” my rear heel out is what initiates the hip rotation, leading to the power…I stay on the balls of my feet and when I throw the cross my rear foot rotates about 60 degrees away from my body, in sync with the punch.

I tried consciously pushing off my back foot but didn’t like it…it felt too much like I was leaping into my punch. I suppose if I was throwing a haymaker cross it could come in handy, but it seems like it would take to long to recover from if I missed.[/quote]

I was going to reply, but the outrageous awesomeness of your avatar made me forget what I was thinking.[/quote]

Lol, yeah it is hypnotic…anyway, am I off base in how I throw my punch? Do you guys keep your rear foot planted or stay on the balls of the foot?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
More people should read Dempsey’s book. It’s truly a forgotten treatise on punching even though I can never quite understand the “fall step” he describes when throwing his stiff jab.[/quote]

Could you elaborate on that? The lead/rear jolt thing confused me as well, as I’ve never seen anyone punch that way. I’ve experimented a bit with the punch and while it seems to be a strong punch, I think it needs some preparation (shifting your BW to your lead foot before throwing) which doesn’t seem to go well with brisk footwork. It also seems to throw you off balance if you miss because you’re literally letting yourself “fall” forward. I’m just talking out of my ass though, as all I know about that punch is what I read in the book and I’ve never attempted to use it in sparring. Your thoughts on that technique would be welcome, since you obviously know a lot about punching.

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
Lol, yeah it is hypnotic…anyway, am I off base in how I throw my punch? Do you guys keep your rear foot planted or stay on the balls of the foot?[/quote]

Nah man, I throw it the same way. Keeping your rear foot planted while going with a cross is like keepin it planted when you’re swinging a baseball bat- takes your body out of the equation and drops your power severely.

[quote]Enjoy The Pain wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
More people should read Dempsey’s book. It’s truly a forgotten treatise on punching even though I can never quite understand the “fall step” he describes when throwing his stiff jab.[/quote]

Could you elaborate on that? The lead/rear jolt thing confused me as well, as I’ve never seen anyone punch that way. I’ve experimented a bit with the punch and while it seems to be a strong punch, I think it needs some preparation (shifting your BW to your lead foot before throwing) which doesn’t seem to go well with brisk footwork. It also seems to throw you off balance if you miss because you’re literally letting yourself “fall” forward. I’m just talking out of my ass though, as all I know about that punch is what I read in the book and I’ve never attempted to use it in sparring. Your thoughts on that technique would be welcome, since you obviously know a lot about punching.[/quote]

I’ve fucked around with it before but I just don’t understand it myself. Dempsey was a very powerful puncher, but this way of punching may be something that you can’t learn through a book. Maybe someone else can explain it better?

I’ve never been able to pick up much technique from written material unless I had some video of that person (or someone coached by that person for long enough to fight the same). Reading a description of what someone does just isn’t the same as going frame by frame and seeing things like feet turning and hips lining up. Often I’m pretty sure that the fighters themselves couldn’t tell you everything they do, just the part they’re focusing on.

I have similar frustrations with people asking for help on this forum. When someone says they stay planted, most of us take that to mean feet flat on the mat. However, that person may be up on the balls of their feet and pivoting, but not bouncing and keeping their weight centered and low. To them it feels planted because they’re stable and on balance, so they say “planted,” but that’s not what comes across to those of us trying to help. What takes us days to hash out here would have taken less than 5 minutes to see and comment on in a gym.

On that note: sparring partners and coaches are much better resources than we are, just because they actually get to see you fight (and in the case of a partner, feel the effects). They’re in a much better position to tell you things like “I’m slipping your cross because you telegraph it, not because your hands are slow.” That’s just one example of a hole in your technique that you wouldn’t even know about, and that we therefore can’t help you with because you’ll never relay it to us. I’m not saying don’t ask questions here, we get some interesting discussions out of them, but we are not a substitute for a coach.

the “fall” can be split into two ot three subtechniques, at least in my opinion.
It’s not that hard to grasp, but if Dempsey’s work didn’t work for you, it’s perhaps not suited for you.

For me, the “main punches” use at least a dozen principles, some of which go against each other and I’m not even speaking about tactical implementation.

Even champions don’t use all or even break some principles; bottom line - like a modern rifle, you have to carefully assemble your weapons, piece by piece.

IMO the strongest punch will have a finished position with your drive foot pointing in the same direction as your punch is being thrown, weight on the ball of your foot, and full extension in that ankle, knee, hip, and elbow.

Some people respond well to the analogy of stomping a bug with your heel, and putting a cigarette out with your other foot (twisting on the ball).

As far as the “falling” step on the jab, think of foot motion somewhere between a push press and a push jerk; that’s how I understand it anyway. Another reason why I like this jab is that it changes the vertical angle to one that is moving upward, which jacks with some people.