What about with facepulls should you retract?
No. Why would you retract on facepulls?
The article above hits on everything I wrote above but used some different terms, which I happened to like. Mainly, the scapula and humerus work IN CONCERT. Together! You don’t lock one down and then try to move the other. That’s a great way to create joint instability, shitty motor patterns, and get injured.
Guys…don’t do it.
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Ty for sharing this info.
This was how I wrongly learned about them hear.
- Have a partner (optional) place their fingers along your spine at about the mid-back height. This helps remind you not to use the low back to move the weight.
- Retract the scapulae (squeeze your partner’s finger with your shoulder blades) and pull the center of the rope slightly up towards the face. A good cue is to think about pulling the ends of the rope apart, not just pulling back.
- As you near your face, externally rotate so your knuckles are facing the ceiling.
- Hold for one second at the top position and slowly lower.
And that’s wrong.
Again, when both the scap and humerus are moving, they should move together. In synergy.
A LOT of coaches learned this wrong. So it’s not like they are intentionally being bad coaches. It was bad cues for a long time.
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When I started training, almost every press hurt my shoulders as it “rolled forward” during the movement, and could never feel my chest working. Eventually, “raising my ribcage” and squeezing the scaps together before chest movement ( though just bringing “back”; “back and down” never felt okay) resolved most of the issues. Recently I discovered that doing the cable crossover in the “crab pose” produced way greater pump and contraction, effectively proving your point.
My question is, could you give some cue ideas for presses that would keep the scaps engaged but not locked? Thanks in advance
You don’t want to lay down flat backed. You still need some retraction and tension around the scapula. You just don’t want to hold it there as you press. You don’t go into protraction. You allow the scapula to rotate around so that the pecs can fully shorten.
Again, I feel like I covered all of that in the first post.
my experience with bench is literally exactly like yours. I had pain benching weights that are warm up weights now. Learned the powerlifting bench set up and no issues with bench.
I think a couple other things to consider is that we’re talking about chest development not moving max weights. Try lowering the load, feeling the muscle more and slowing the movement down a little. I know that I’d lower the load if I don’t hold scapula in locked position but it’s the triceps and delts doing the bulk of the movement .
Not Paul just my 2 cents 
The powerlifting version of benching is the one that’s going to create the greatest amount if impingement.
And you’re basically trading off some temporary pain relief for more problems down the road. Does powerlifting seem like the bastion for great shoulder health?
It’s the opposite of what you wrote. If you’re allowing the scap to move naturally, which means not in retraction and then they move around the rib cage, they fully allow the pecs to shorten.
ANYONE who gets this right will absolutely feel a stronger pec contraction. Not in their delts and triceps.
I don’t know if I should post it here or the Meadows thread but watching that, and also the pic of the cable flye posted something clicked and man, I think I never felt my pecs working this hard. Thanks Paul 
What I did’t understood was the difference between letting the scap come forward vs protraction. What helped was starting by pulling the shoulders “back” (just back not down) and the chest “up” at the start than just letting it move and shorten the pec while keeping the chest up. I don’t know id I’m doing it right from a shoulder mechanic standpoint (hope so ) but contraction wise, it feels like it.
I dont know id I can phase my next question correctly So, Regarding biasing the upper pec. In the video you say a 45 degree angle should be kept. From there should I still try to “flare” the elbow at the bottom and press in (kinda like how John does in the video) or try keep the angle throught by tucking the elbow and pressing “straight up” (kind of like pressing in a smith machine and keeping the elbow under the bar the whole time). Whats the best biasing the upper pec? Hope the question makes sense. 
thanks in advance 
So long as you’re maintaining that 45 degree angle of the humerus to the torso you should be fine. I do recommend a slight tuck to the arms as if you start to flare you tend to lose that angle a bit.
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I just came across Dr. Rusin’s article about shoulder packing, You guys should really do some roundtable about this or smtng
I talked with two physical therapeutists lately and they do confirm what You’re saying about scapula-humerus conflict but also stating that’s a bigger deal with vertical movements than horizontal, at least in terms of shoulder health
I’m going to do a long video with Kas within the next week or two to talk about this.
Shoulder packing during any movement where the humeri and scapula are moving should not have the shoulders “packed” and held there. Period.
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I would love to see you do a long video with someone who offers an opposing view, so we can hear both sides of the equation.
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I can get behind not locking scapula for lateral raises, normal scapulohumeral rhythm is 1 degree of upward rotation for every 2 degrees of abduction. If the scapula stay locked down you could get some impingement at end range.
Not sure of the ratio for other movements but it’s probably safe to say that the scapula and shoulder should work together rather than separately
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There isn’t “two sides”. There’s the way that your body operates efficiently due to the way it is built.
And that is, the humerus and scapula work in concert together. I literally had a call this morning with a bio mechanics guy and this same issue drives him nuts. It’s been repeated throughout the physical therapy and lifting community so long that it’s known as some “truth” when it in fact goes against the way the body is designed to move.
I’m not sure how anyone can talk about creating better shoulder stability when you have one muscular force trying to shorten, and pull the humerus forwards, while the other muscles are trying to hold it back.
That’s literally dysfunctional.
“But muh shoulders stopped hurting when I did this!”
Because as noted, SOME retraction should happen naturally. That’s where the stability is. But you don’t HOLD IT THERE as the pressing muscles are trying to shorten and move the humerus forwards. That literally makes ZERO sense from an anatomical standpoint.
BINGO!!!
I wish more people understood this.
Informative response, but there are physios and strength coaches who promote the opposite. It would be a cool conversation, unless you prescribe to the my way is right and everyone is wrong approach. You don’t strike me as that kind of guy.
There are people who teach the Earth is flat but it doesn’t make it so.
I used to be in the camp of “locking the scapula down” until I learned better and got better at bio mechanics.
which is also why we will be making a long and informative video covering this. I don’t have the time to get on podcasts and debate this issue with people all day. You give the information and people decide what they want to do with it.
But I’m telling you from an anatomical standpoint, the humerus and scapula are designed to move in concert with one another. And when that’s not happening there is dysfunction at the shoulder joint occurring.
What’s funny is you bring up strength coaches - right…powerlifting. The bastion of shoulder health right?
The fact that powerlifting is so full of shoulder and pec injuries should be a hint that doing this probably isn’t ideal.
What’s the shoulder and pec injury rate in bodybuilding?
“The injury rate is low compared to other weightlifting disciplines such as powerlifting, Olympic weightlifting or strongman competition. In comparison to team or contact sports the injury rate is minimal.”
Anything else or just more arguing for the sake of it?