Steroids: Why or Why Not?

Smashingweights · May 10, 2013, 11:58pm

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Audio,
How long have you been training?
What are your current lifting statistics?[/quote]

I think ive been training since summer of '09. I dont ever max and im more of a volume guy, so lifting stats are tough to give without more specific requests than that.

At the moment im on the tail end of a 5 month cut too so im favoring volume over weight more than ever.

Why?[/quote]

Because 8 true lbs past the first 2 years of lifting is pretty damn hard to do as natty. Or something along those lines. Stu or brick would know better [/quote]
Basically what Ryan said.
I was more talking about your height and weight when I said stats.
If you’ve been doing things right for te past almost 3 years you should be expecting to make significantly less gains.
Of course quality gains can still be made naturally but nothing comparable to your first 1-3 years.

optheta · May 11, 2013, 12:30am

[quote]willden wrote:
So there’s a the trick to control excessive horniness?[/quote]

Get a lady friend, but I can see how a person such as yourself would have problems with that.

willden · May 11, 2013, 12:55am

omg amazing lolz

audiogarden1 · May 11, 2013, 1:05am

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Audio,
How long have you been training?
What are your current lifting statistics?[/quote]

I think ive been training since summer of '09. I dont ever max and im more of a volume guy, so lifting stats are tough to give without more specific requests than that.

At the moment im on the tail end of a 5 month cut too so im favoring volume over weight more than ever.

Why?[/quote]

Because 8 true lbs past the first 2 years of lifting is pretty damn hard to do as natty. Or something along those lines. Stu or brick would know better [/quote]
Basically what Ryan said.
I was more talking about your height and weight when I said stats.
If you’ve been doing things right for te past almost 3 years you should be expecting to make significantly less gains.
Of course quality gains can still be made naturally but nothing comparable to your first 1-3 years.[/quote]

6’3 240 right now. Ive been as high as 290 and was holding significantly more muscle than i am now. Started at 165 at only slightly less bodyfat than im currently sitting at. same height.

I definitely believe 8 lbs is doable in a year even after your first few years of lifting especially at my age.

ryanbCXG · May 11, 2013, 1:36am

So almost 80lbs in 4 years huh. Wow

audiogarden1 · May 11, 2013, 2:31am

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So almost 80lbs in 4 years huh. Wow[/quote]

80 lbs of muscle? no. lol I wish.

But as i said, during my intial bulk, which spanned several years, i went from 165 at 6’3 to over 290. I was eating a ton of carbs every day so i know i held a significant amount of water-weight, and i was significantly softer than i am now (probably about the same bf % as in my profile pic, but i was actually only about 260 in that picture)

Now im down to 240, dont quite have that full 6 pack i did during my first year or so lifting, but visible abs. I know i lost a lot of muscle on this cut though, i fucked up for like a month and it hurt me bad. Since i really dialed everything in the last 6 weeks i havent lost any strength or (good) mass at all.

Either way, im very confident that ive gained more than 32lbs of lean mass in my 4 years of hitting the weights hard. Do i expect this to sustain for years to come? not really, but i think ive still got a couple years in me of making similar gains if i keep my diet right and hi it like i have been.

Smashingweights · May 11, 2013, 3:07am

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So almost 80lbs in 4 years huh. Wow[/quote]

80 lbs of muscle? no. lol I wish.

But as i said, during my intial bulk, which spanned several years, i went from 165 at 6’3 to over 290. I was eating a ton of carbs every day so i know i held a significant amount of water-weight, and i was significantly softer than i am now (probably about the same bf % as in my profile pic, but i was actually only about 260 in that picture)

Now im down to 240, dont quite have that full 6 pack i did during my first year or so lifting, but visible abs. I know i lost a lot of muscle on this cut though, i fucked up for like a month and it hurt me bad. Since i really dialed everything in the last 6 weeks i havent lost any strength or (good) mass at all.

Either way, im very confident that ive gained more than 32lbs of lean mass in my 4 years of hitting the weights hard. Do i expect this to sustain for years to come? not really, but i think ive still got a couple years in me of making similar gains if i keep my diet right and hi it like i have been. [/quote]

If you lost a “significant amount of muscle” by messing up your cut then you can gain it back relatively quickly.
You would be re gaining muscle. You know, muscle memory and all that.
Good job on your gains so far!

Gettnitdone · May 11, 2013, 4:02am

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Why compare the gains of a sub par user half adding it and a natty genetic freak?[/quote]

did you just call me sub par?

sob[/quote]
Lol, not you RDS.
The scenario I was referring to was someone going through all the trouble of cycling in order to gain a few pounds more than a natural lifter who gets their anyway. (Strangely worded comment after I re read it)

Someone who has their sh** together, gym/diet/cycle, will make significant gains
Compared to a natural with the same level of dedication.

I was questioning the comparitive example given of guys with differing levels of dedication as an example of downplaying steroids.[/quote]

We don’t disagree at all.

But notice how you emphasise “has their shit together.” Talk to experienced lifters on here who have been in the iron game for a good minute and are attuned to the pulse of the lifting community. They will tell you it’s unfortunately rare to find a user who “has their shit together.” A lot of people use and from that pool, much more “half ass” than are totally dedicated.

Don’t get me wrong, “half-assers” will likely gain noticeably; almost guaranteed compared to their natural equivalent. However, I don’t think a lot of people will agree that the time and resources spent on steroids is worth the gains the person who is no where near their genetic potential attains from using.

Plus, if you’re not a serious lifter you’re just deluding yourself by using. You become dependant on a foreign source for the majority of your achievements in the gym. When you get off, and the half-asser will, you’re back to square one in terms of future progression, even if you keep a few pounds of your gains.

Personally, I would maybe only think about experimenting short-term with steroids. I don’t think I will ever justify using for extended periods irrespective of how advanced a lifter I become.

audiogarden1 · May 11, 2013, 4:31am

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So almost 80lbs in 4 years huh. Wow[/quote]

80 lbs of muscle? no. lol I wish.

But as i said, during my intial bulk, which spanned several years, i went from 165 at 6’3 to over 290. I was eating a ton of carbs every day so i know i held a significant amount of water-weight, and i was significantly softer than i am now (probably about the same bf % as in my profile pic, but i was actually only about 260 in that picture)

Now im down to 240, dont quite have that full 6 pack i did during my first year or so lifting, but visible abs. I know i lost a lot of muscle on this cut though, i fucked up for like a month and it hurt me bad. Since i really dialed everything in the last 6 weeks i havent lost any strength or (good) mass at all.

Either way, im very confident that ive gained more than 32lbs of lean mass in my 4 years of hitting the weights hard. Do i expect this to sustain for years to come? not really, but i think ive still got a couple years in me of making similar gains if i keep my diet right and hi it like i have been. [/quote]

If you lost a “significant amount of muscle” by messing up your cut then you can gain it back relatively quickly.
You would be re gaining muscle. You know, muscle memory and all that.
Good job on your gains so far![/quote]

Thanks. And i am confident i will gain it back quickly. Ive done it before. Just dying to get back into gaining mode after over 5 months of dieting down.

This was the first “real” cut ive done, and while it has been overall successful, it took longer than i’d hoped for and i didnt get QUITE as lean as i wanted to, but im still happy with it. It was a great learning experience and not only did i lean out to a weight i havent been in over 2 years, i know that my next cut is gonna be way better.

I’d be lying if i said i didnt miss filling out XXL t-shirts and strict form curling 65lb DB’s though…

ryanbCXG · May 11, 2013, 12:52pm

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So almost 80lbs in 4 years huh. Wow[/quote]

80 lbs of muscle? no. lol I wish.

But as i said, during my intial bulk, which spanned several years, i went from 165 at 6’3 to over 290. I was eating a ton of carbs every day so i know i held a significant amount of water-weight, and i was significantly softer than i am now (probably about the same bf % as in my profile pic, but i was actually only about 260 in that picture)

Now im down to 240, dont quite have that full 6 pack i did during my first year or so lifting, but visible abs. I know i lost a lot of muscle on this cut though, i fucked up for like a month and it hurt me bad. Since i really dialed everything in the last 6 weeks i havent lost any strength or (good) mass at all.

Either way, im very confident that ive gained more than 32lbs of lean mass in my 4 years of hitting the weights hard. Do i expect this to sustain for years to come? not really, but i think ive still got a couple years in me of making similar gains if i keep my diet right and hi it like i have been. [/quote]

I was going based off your saying that you started at 165 and now are 240 at close to the same bf

MassiveGuns · May 11, 2013, 3:04pm

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Lol @ a first cycle being test, dbol, anadrol, short eater EQ AND growth hormone.
Come on proportionatelymassiveguns.
What beginner runs that as a first cycle?
More than likely its just test or orals/PH’s as a first cycle.[/quote]

Exactly. That’s why 8lbs sounds great to most.

The truth however is that first cycle isn’t really as crazy as you think. I’m not suggesting large doses of orals, 30mg dbol or 40-50 of drol, 200mg of bold acetate and a solid dose of test prop depending on bodyweight. Add in the GH and like you said, if you REALLY have your shit together then that first cycle is going to be way way more productive than straight test.

The point is not many people can be trusted to run a cycle like that as a beginner because they can’t be arsed to do the research and don’t have any one to support them on hand who knows their shit.

If you’re going to fuck with your hormones, you might as well do it properly. IMO.

MassiveGuns · May 11, 2013, 3:06pm

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Why compare the gains of a sub par user half adding it and a natty genetic freak?[/quote]

did you just call me sub par?

sob[/quote]
Lol, not you RDS.
The scenario I was referring to was someone going through all the trouble of cycling in order to gain a few pounds more than a natural lifter who gets their anyway. (Strangely worded comment after I re read it)

Someone who has their sh** together, gym/diet/cycle, will make significant gains
Compared to a natural with the same level of dedication.

I was questioning the comparitive example given of guys with differing levels of dedication as an example of downplaying steroids.[/quote]

We don’t disagree at all.

But notice how you emphasise “has their shit together.” Talk to experienced lifters on here who have been in the iron game for a good minute and are attuned to the pulse of the lifting community. They will tell you it’s unfortunately rare to find a user who “has their shit together.” A lot of people use and from that pool, much more “half ass” than are totally dedicated.

Don’t get me wrong, “half-assers” will likely gain noticeably; almost guaranteed compared to their natural equivalent. However, I don’t think a lot of people will agree that the time and resources spent on steroids is worth the gains the person who is no where near their genetic potential attains from using.

Plus, if you’re not a serious lifter you’re just deluding yourself by using. You become dependant on a foreign source for the majority of your achievements in the gym. When you get off, and the half-asser will, you’re back to square one in terms of future progression, even if you keep a few pounds of your gains.

Personally, I would maybe only think about experimenting short-term with steroids. I don’t think I will ever justify using for extended periods irrespective of how advanced a lifter I become. [/quote]

Steroids are not for experimenting with. Either you decide you are going to use and have decent reasons to do so (i guess thats pretty subjective but wtf) or just don’t bother. They are not for fking around with.

MassiveGuns · May 11, 2013, 3:08pm

[quote]willden wrote:
omg amazing lolz[/quote]

It was actually quite funny.

MassiveGuns · May 11, 2013, 3:17pm

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Monopoly19 wrote:
I did not take the time to read all 18 pages in the thread. What I can offer you is my own personal experience.

I always wanted to be a freak. I knew from early on that steroids were part of the game. I never had a moral issue with them.

Is it cheating? If your a bodybuilder, I think not (unless you are doing natty shows and claiming natty, then it’s chickenshit). Drugs are tied so heavy to the sport.

If it’s strength sports, it depends. If you are in a drug tested powerlifting fed and using, again, that’s bullshit. If you are in strongman or an untested fed, you have to realize that you will be competing against many other people who are using them. You will never be as big and strong without them, as you will with them.

With regards to health risks, I think they are severely overblown. As someone who is on HRT and has ran 1 or 2 cycles a year for 7 years, my bloodwork has never been an issue. My wife just became pregnant without us trying to conceive (she wanted to come off birth control, 2 months later she was preggers). There are health risks to being this bodyweight however. The heart is not meant to support 270, 300, 330lbs of fat OR muscle.

For me, the pro list is so long and the con list is so short. It’s a personal choice that everyone has to make. I respect any of the people who choose to stay natural as that is hard thing to do with this lifestyle. [/quote]

Better get a DNA test. Your chances of conceiving on hrt are tiny…
[/quote]

nope…[/quote]

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it isn’t as high as you think.

A lancet study rated test injections as 99.2% effective as a contraceptive.

Not impossible, but there’s a 99.2% chance that baby isn’t his…
[/quote]

tell that to all the guys who have conceived while 10 years deep into blasting and cruising and have gotten DNA tests to prove paternity…

there is a reason they don’t use exogenous test as a contraceptive anymore… it proved to not be a viable option because IT DOESN’T WORK

im sure those involved in the study weren’t making any efforts to restore their fertility either (clomid, hrt dose of test, hcg, hmg, coq10, vco etc.)

please don’t post dumb shit[/quote]

You do realise that theres a lot of people who use steroids. 0.8% times a really big number is a big number… Bro-science is bro-science.

It wasn’t viable because the general public doesn’t like being stuck with needles every week, and it ain’t as cheap as coming up with a hormone active orally in mg to microgram amounts that replaces all the effects of testosterone.

Please be sure someone is posting dumb shit before you accuse them of such

MassiveGuns · May 11, 2013, 3:24pm

[quote]AzCats wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
For the most part this has been an absolute great read. I’m 37 and only now have considered the use of AAS. Im still progressing, especially in terms of strength but at this point, it seems like the next level to take. Then on the other hand, while this is a passion, it is not my livelihood and will never get paid for it, but besides from the joy my family and some friends bring me, nothing makes me happier than gains in the gym. I dont look at it as a shortcut, as I have been at it long enough (Over 10 years, though admittedly the first 5 I had no idea what I was doing) I simply look at it as the next step.

My main worries are the dependence aspect of it, more specifically will I ever want to get off? The emotional aspect, as I have dealt with psychological issues my whole life (i.e. depression). This is my main stumbling block and probably the main reason when AAS is at arms length I back off, I cant put my wife through any more shit with regards to my head issues. I also would be lying if I was not worried about the other side effects that are accompanied by AAS use, while it is possibly overblown its still there. Anyways this was/is a very good thread[/quote]

You bring up alot of good points. The times I have considered it I was going to take the Caveman approach. Do 1 or 2 low/moderate dose controlled cycles a year. Problem is that I have problems with addiction and substance abuse in the past so AAS like any drug is basically 100% off limits for me.

Kind of what prompted my question to Walkway. Most of the guys I know who use, claim they are not addicted, but use year round and have no planned ‘out’ so to speak. Big red flag for a guy like me with depency issues. [/quote]

I am addicted yes. I’ve never done another drug in my life however, and I haven’t consumed alcohol in 7 years.

I’ve given away all the bottles of painkillers i received after my numerous oral surgeries for example…

I have an addictive personality as well, but I believe aas is justifiable [/quote]

Didnt mean to make it sound like I was labeling you as addicted. Just trying to say that I know alot of people who never plan to be off or stop, which freaks me out since I have had my issues with addiction. Having an addictive personality is much different than actually having an addiction that breeds a phyiscal and mental dependancy.

To echo what Matt said, AAS is the Dark Side of the force for me and I know it. There would be no going back and ill admit most likely abuse. [/quote]

You haven’t tried drugs till you’ve tried testosterone. The first cycle I did I had a euphoric high like nothing I’ve ever known or felt. It’s the most powerful feeling in the world. [/quote]

Are you serious? Please go to a Narcotics Anonomous meeting and explain to the members there how they haven’t tried drugs because they have not tried the all mighty powerful high of steroids. You are a moron. [/quote]
Yeah, I thought that post was stretching it a bit also. He makes it sound like a hit of crack first thing in the morning. I honestly don’t feel much different at all when I’m on a cycle. I feel stronger and have a bit more energy during the day but other than that, It’s just a normal day to me.[/quote]

Whats the highest dose of test you’ve run?

MassiveGuns · May 11, 2013, 3:28pm

[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Lol @ a first cycle being test, dbol, anadrol, short eater EQ AND growth hormone.
Come on proportionatelymassiveguns.
What beginner runs that as a first cycle?
More than likely its just test or orals/PH’s as a first cycle.[/quote]

this ^

I thought with roids, and nutrition/supplementation in general it was best to try and get the most results out of the least amount of whatever input?[/quote]

It’s best to get the maximum gains, with minimum sides, with the least time on.

MassiveGuns · May 11, 2013, 3:32pm

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]AzCats wrote:

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:

[quote]willden wrote:
Which is the entire point of the thread. You need to speculate in order to decide if you want to use. You would think many more people would do a cycle if it were to give them 25lbs of LBM vs 5lbs. It’s all about risk/reward.[/quote]

Correct. An 8 lb gain of pure lean mass in a few months with little/no side effects would be very reasonable and definitely worth the risk in my opinion. Naturally, that would take 2-3 times longer to achieve those results.[/quote]
You must be gifted then. Cause it took me almost 2 years to gain a solid 8lbs of mass naturally. RDS did that in a few weeks. I just don’t think many realize how much 8lbs of solid mass really is… and for someone to do that in 10-12 weeks is amazing to me and I give him props for that instead of others telling him that 8lbs is nothing or he should have gained a lot more. [/quote]

not really, people just count weight that isn’t lean body mass… as lean body mass

because they don’t know what they are talking about…[/quote]
Hypothetical Scenario:
Go get your body fat tested.
5’10 201 pounds with 9% bodyfat
Chug a gallon of water
5’10 210 pounds with 9% bodyfat
OMFG AMAZIN GAINZZZZ!!!
[/quote]

Have you ever tried that? It doesn’t quite work how you think.

ryanbCXG · May 11, 2013, 3:46pm

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]AzCats wrote:

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:

[quote]willden wrote:
Which is the entire point of the thread. You need to speculate in order to decide if you want to use. You would think many more people would do a cycle if it were to give them 25lbs of LBM vs 5lbs. It’s all about risk/reward.[/quote]

Correct. An 8 lb gain of pure lean mass in a few months with little/no side effects would be very reasonable and definitely worth the risk in my opinion. Naturally, that would take 2-3 times longer to achieve those results.[/quote]
You must be gifted then. Cause it took me almost 2 years to gain a solid 8lbs of mass naturally. RDS did that in a few weeks. I just don’t think many realize how much 8lbs of solid mass really is… and for someone to do that in 10-12 weeks is amazing to me and I give him props for that instead of others telling him that 8lbs is nothing or he should have gained a lot more. [/quote]

not really, people just count weight that isn’t lean body mass… as lean body mass

because they don’t know what they are talking about…[/quote]
Hypothetical Scenario:
Go get your body fat tested.
5’10 201 pounds with 9% bodyfat
Chug a gallon of water
5’10 210 pounds with 9% bodyfat
OMFG AMAZIN GAINZZZZ!!!
[/quote]

Have you ever tried that? It doesn’t quite work how you think.
[/quote]

Please enlighten us since we seem to not know anything

AzCats · May 11, 2013, 3:55pm