Star Wars: Force Awakens Thread

roybot · December 31, 2015, 8:56pm

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Plagueis makes the most sense to come back, most obviously because he looks non-human and it would be dumb to have it really be Palpatine. It would also make the story much better to now have the Sith be someone who was more powerful than Palpatine. Although since they were both killed the more powerful would simply be the one who survived death at this point.

As a movie I think there is more to gain by having it be someone new, especially one mentioned in a previous movie. I always hated the way they killed the emperor, it made him not look very powerful as he couldn’t stop his lightening as vader slowly carried him to be thrown off the edge. As a human Palpatine was just old and obviously affected by it, Plagueis could be an alien who naturally lives longer, like Yoda did.

On the other hand there was at least 20 years between when Palpatine mentioned Plagueis and possibly even longer from the time he was apparently killed. Palpatine had plenty of time to gain more skills, specifically the resurrection one. [/quote]

This film is filled with so many plot holes the size of the Sarlaac Pit it makes zero sense to base any predictions on what “makes sense”.

Quite frankly, it’s fucking disgusting how illogical and nonsensical the plot is. The people who wrote this thing are supposed to be fucking professionals and yet, it’s as if they didn’t even TRY to make the thing make sense. The Writers’ Guild should revoke their membership.

[/quote]

Serious question: if you had a shot at writing episode VII, what would you have done differently?[/quote]

Ren would be able to sense his father within 20 feet of him, for starters.

He wouldn’t have left the most powerful Force-sensitive person he’s come across, aside from Snoke, to be guarded by ONE fucking Stormtrooper.

I would never have used the Starkiller idea. Like I said earlier, it’s a bastardized cross between Unicron and that thing from Space Balls.

There’s a lot of other things I would have done differently that I don’t have the time to get into in detail right now. But suffice it to say that I would have written a FAR more logical plot. Not necessarily more realistic, just more logical. I also would not have recycled literally EVERY plot device from the original films.[/quote]

I like that.

roybot · December 31, 2015, 8:58pm

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

Serious question: if you had a shot at writing episode VII, what would you have done differently?[/quote]

I think it would have been more interesting if several factions of the Empire were fighting for dominance after the destruction of the deathstar. There had to be tons of Empire admirals with their own star destroyers who feel they are the best candidate for new emperor. Instead of one unified New Order, you have a multi-sided war going on between them while the resistance and new republic are trying to protect everyone else from collateral damage. This setting would give a concrete reason for the resistance to still be present, and it wouldn’t be as simplistic as “we have a new empire, exactly like the old empire”. [/quote]

And what the fuck is there to resist if the rebels defeated the Empire?

Or was it never defeated in the first place? Or is the New Order the survival of a war amongst factions? At any rate, if this is the case, why is there a Republic AND a Resistance?

[/quote]

Answered that in a previous post.

roybot · December 31, 2015, 9:13pm

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
In fact, if Snoke doesn’t turn out to be Palpatine, I’ll be fucking shocked. It’s the most obvious possibiity, given that Palpatine apparently killed the only other viable option, Plagueis.[/quote]

Palpatine thought he killed Plagueis, believing he had nothing more to learn/gain from his master. Plageuis is the ideal candidate for survival given his apparent power set and the chances of surviving a botched bed chamber assassination being higher than falling down a Death Star shaft, force combusting at the bottom then somehow escaping the destruction of the Death Star.

People are going full potato with these theories. Far worse than anything Abrams has come up with. Another popular one is that Snoke is Boba Fett…the only one I haven’t read is that Snoke is evil future Han Solo travelling into the past to ensure his creation.

[/quote]

If Snoke had such power, and if Palpatine allegedly “killed” him prior to the events in ALL of the films, why is he just now waiting to reemerge? Why wouldn’t he have reemerged in time to take out the person who tried to kill him?

The Sith are driven by vengeance and selfishness. Snoke is going after the very people responsible for the “death” of Palpatine. For one who is well-versed in the ways of the Dark Side, to the point that they can stave off death, falling down the shaft of the Death Star is nothing. NEVER underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Besides, it’s JJ Abrams. The guy is a fucking derivative hack with little creativity. The way this franchise is going, if there are several options on the table about anything involved with the films it’s best to stick with the option that requires the least amount of creativity. Bringing the Emperor back is the less creative of the options here, so I’m sticking with that one.[/quote]

OK. Based only on what I know is still canon, Palpatine never learned to stave off death. The only Sith with that ability is Plagueis. Palpatine didn’t have that power: he lured Anakin with the false hope that he could teach him. That’s why, in the opera house scene he specifically mentions Plagueis as being able to bring back the dead, not ‘Darth Sidious’. It’s a half-truth designed to play on Anakin’s fears.

Palpatine also broke the rule of two. Twice. Darth Bane intended it to strengthen the Sith with each successive generation by allowing the apprentice to become master only if he could defeat his mentor in open combat. The Emperor dodged it once by killing his master (renowned for his power of resurrection no less) in his sleep, then by using the tale of Plagueis’s power as an insurance policy against Vader trying to kill him and use him as his thrall.

It means at the very least Palpatine knew Plagueis was too powerful to defeat directly. That gives Plagueis the edge on making a reappearance (or appearance since he hasn’t been seen in a movie before)…

Fearless Leader Mason Verger looks like someone who’s stared down the business end of lightsaber. If he is Plagueis and if survived Palpatine’s attempt on his life, then it’s reasonable to say Plagueis is using his power to stay alive and has taken a long time, this long to recover. It’s certainly less of a leap than Palpatine took at the end of ROTJ.

Also they’ve set a precedent in previous Star Wars movies by having characters come back from serious injuries with cybernetic parts (Anakin/ Vader, Grievous, Luke). From what we can see Snoke has none.

On a personal note, if they’ve replaced Ian McDiarmid just to hide a twist they can get fucked.
[/quote]

I’m not sure that what’s canon really matters here. Lucas has already said that he isn’t happy with where the franchise is headed AND that his story ideas have already been rejected by Abrams in favor of what is essentially a remake of A New Hope. And let’s not kid ourselves. That’s all this movie is: a remake.

Darth Bane and all that is a Lucas creation to supplement the prequels. And I’m not sure that what Palpatine says carries all that much weight, given he’s a lying, treacherous bastard. Besides, in several novels he’s sort of resurrected after ROTJ anyways. I think maybe they try to clone him or something like that. So it wouldn’t be entirely without precedent.

Regardless, Abrams is making films for the fanbase. He knows that people generally love the Emperor as the personification of evil now that Vader no longer fills that role. There is nothing in Abrams’ history to suggest that he’ll do something original. We can banter back and forth about canonical material and all that, but at the end of the day what really matters is who’s making the films. And the “canon” is a Lucas product, first and foremost. And Lucas just came out and said that he sold the franchise to white slavers, amongst other comments that reveal his displeasure at the franchise’s direction. I’m guessing that a willingness to reject canon and originality in favor of what the audience is familiar with is what Lucas is unhappy about.

Fuck, Revenge of the Sith was LIGHT YEARS better than this film.[/quote]

There’s no back and forth to be had over what is and what isn’t canon.

Most of the EU material has been re-branded as non-canonical Star Wars Legends. Disney have said the movies -prequels included- are still canon, therefore what happens within them is the most reliable source of info we have to hand. I wouldn’t have bothered posting it were otherwise and I did so to avoid undue speculation. What George Lucas says now is irrelevant. He didn’t listen to fans when he owned Lucasfilm and he was happy enough to deal with the ‘white slavers’ when it suited him.
[/quote]

The whole white slavers comment, coming from him, was fucking laughable. The motherfucker wasn’t hesitant about lauding the film and Abrams and all that, but now that the thing is actually OUT, he fucking hates it.

The white slaver comment is like listening to a mid-19th century Portuguese condemn the American South for the institution of slavery.[/quote]

In B4 ‘Finn is a slave name’.

roybot · December 31, 2015, 9:20pm

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

Serious question: if you had a shot at writing episode VII, what would you have done differently?[/quote]

I think it would have been more interesting if several factions of the Empire were fighting for dominance after the destruction of the deathstar. There had to be tons of Empire admirals with their own star destroyers who feel they are the best candidate for new emperor. Instead of one unified New Order, you have a multi-sided war going on between them while the resistance and new republic are trying to protect everyone else from collateral damage.

If you wanted, you could have someone form the New Order (with Sith support to keep the Force present) over the 3 films to become the next Big Bad to be wrecked in the third movie. This setting would give a concrete reason for the resistance to still be present, allow the new republic to function for more than 30 seconds, and the plot wouldn’t be as simplistic as “we have a new empire, exactly like the old empire”. [/quote]

But I prefer this.

roybot · December 31, 2015, 11:01pm

Kylo Ren isn’t as strong as he seems. There’s some weird shit going on in that blaster bolt suspension scene (the air is quivering like there’s a force field around him). The torture of Poe Dameron is a red herring. Rey is in the scan grid, Ren seemingly goes straight for the mind penetration, but it’s actually the machine doing the work. If not, why is she in it?

Chewie takes out Ren’s belt power source with his bowcaster. Ren isn’t slapping his wound for adrenaline but trying to reactivate his force field. Discuss.

Silyak · January 1, 2016, 3:34pm

[quote]roybot wrote:
Kylo Ren isn’t as strong as he seems. There’s some weird shit going on in that blaster bolt suspension scene (the air is quivering like there’s a force field around him). The torture of Poe Dameron is a red herring. Rey is in the scan grid, Ren seemingly goes straight for the mind penetration, but it’s actually the machine doing the work. If not, why is she in it?

Chewie takes out Ren’s belt power source with his bowcaster. Ren isn’t slapping his wound for adrenaline but trying to reactivate his force field. Discuss. [/quote]

The main problem with the “Kylo Ren isn’t really very powerful explanation” or alternately “Kylo Ren is really a whiney teenager with a laser sword” is that it makes it difficult to explain Luke’s plan. When Kylo Ren went bad, the most logical person to confront him was Luke. And we hear that he did that and it didn’t work although details are limited. If that means that Luke couldn’t handle him, it means that Kylo Ren is powerful. If it means that Luke simply couldn’t get Kylo Ren to turn away from the dark side, then why did Luke decide to leave and abandon the galaxy to the wrath of a teenager with a laser sword? I get that he didn’t want to kill his nephew, but letting everyone else suffer his wrath shouldn’t have been an option.

Maybe Luke’s option can be explained in a satisfying way, but I’m skeptical.

More simply, the revelation that the villain is weak undermines the epic nature of the plot.

sufiandy · January 1, 2016, 4:25pm

[quote]roybot wrote:
Kylo Ren isn’t as strong as he seems. There’s some weird shit going on in that blaster bolt suspension scene (the air is quivering like there’s a force field around him). The torture of Poe Dameron is a red herring. Rey is in the scan grid, Ren seemingly goes straight for the mind penetration, but it’s actually the machine doing the work. If not, why is she in it?

Chewie takes out Ren’s belt power source with his bowcaster. Ren isn’t slapping his wound for adrenaline but trying to reactivate his force field. Discuss. [/quote]

The bolt suspension was something new they did in this movie so there isn’t anything to base how its supposed to look on. He is related to Vader and being mentored by the most powerful sith there is no reason to think he can’t do some cool things with the force even though his skills are not complete. The other stuff you mentioned I did not see as very obvious in the movie, minor details the movie makers didn’t put much thought in to either.

sufiandy · January 1, 2016, 9:16pm

therajraj · January 1, 2016, 9:51pm

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Not picking on you but haven’t movie fans just become awful? Seems like they can’t really enjoy anything anymore.

this article is about what I mean. I bet if he were writing around the time ROTJ came out I bet he would have said “if Yoda is such a great Jedi master why does he need to live in exile?!?!?”

sufiandy · January 1, 2016, 11:08pm

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Not picking on you but haven’t movie fans just become awful? Seems like they can’t really enjoy anything anymore.

this article is about what I mean. I bet if he were writing around the time ROTJ came out I bet he would have said “if Yoda is such a great Jedi master why does he need to live in exile?!?!?”[/quote]

I’m not sure fans have changed much, we just have the internet now.

Silyak · January 2, 2016, 7:50pm

There were literally thousands of plots and sets of new characters that the new movies could have gone with or made up as it was a mostly clean slate. So I won’t bother talking about what the best other plot would have been, but even if you want to keep most of this story there are lots of small changes that would have made a big difference.

BB-9 doesn’t have a map to Luke Skywalker. Luke is still missing, but he didn’t leave a cryptic map. The map to Luke Skywalker thing doesn’t really make sense (at least I can’t think of any way it makes sense). The only reason for this was that they wanted to see the BB-8 toy. So, the movie starts off with Poe Dameron, an agent of the republic task force or something like that (because calling it the resistance makes no sense) looking for Luke Skywalker. He is talking to some contacts in a village when stormtroopers break in and start slaughtering everyone. Kylo Ren arrives, except he doesn’t draw his lightsaber, because he’s a powerful force user that can stop blaster bolts with his mind and he’s leading a force of stormtroopers killing what are basically non-combatants.

Poe Dameron tries to shoot him but gets captured, tortured, and rescued by Finn (who doesn’t have blood on his helmet because battles aren’t bloody in Star Wars). They crash land on Jakku and meet Rey (Doesn’t matter exactly how, maybe she helps them, maybe they help her. Hundreds of millions of dollars aught to be enough to come up with a plausible way to make characters meet without using secret data in a droid). Poe Dameron needs to get back to his base to tell them that a force user with a bunch of stormtroopers and star destroyers is reeking havoc and breaking stuff. The Poe/Finn interaction was great and keeping Poe with Finn and Rey will improve the team and not leave us awkwardly wondering if these guys as a couple. So there isn’t a reason to “kill” Poe on Jakku and then “Deus ex machina” him alive again. While I don’t mind starkiller base since it sort of makes sense that the bad guys keep trying to develop superweapons, it also doesn’t add much to the plot and can really be left out.

The team escapes Jakku on the Millenium Falcon and meet Han and Chewie like they did. This part is a little stretched and could easily be changed, but it wasn’t tired so you can leave it alone. They land on whatever planet it is where they meet Maz. Maz senses that Rey is force sensitive and decides to give her a lightsaber. It’s not any particular lightsaber because bringing back Anakin’s saber without really explaining how it came back is lazy and pointless. The movie progresses as before and Rey gets captured. (At this point you can have a battle because Poe was able to send a message to his team and they are coming to help and Kylo Ren is trying to capture them and kill them before they tell everyone about him. Neither starkiller base nor the map to Luke are required) The team goes back to the Rebel base and they realize that some stuff is going down. Also, did I mention that they have new ships and they they aren’t still using X-wings as those were old technology 30 years ago. Finn, Poe, Han, and Chewie set out to rescue Rey, because rescuing. Really, you don’t need a planet destroying superweapon to drive this plot.

Kylo Ren tries to break into Rey’s mind because he knows she is force sensitive. He doesn’t take off his mask because that mask reveal was completely wasted and it takes away from the Han/Kylo ren interaction that comes later. Han and team arrive to rescue Rey and while I’m not going to specify how this has to go down exactly because it can be pretty open ended, I’m sure that Rey doesn’t use the force that she doesn’t know she has to perform a jedi skill that she doesn’t even know exists. As they are leaving, Kylo Ren catches them and Han senses who this is.

Han asks Ben Solo to leave with them and tells the others to get to the ship. Ben Solo now takes off the mask and it is a much more powerful moment because he didn’t just take off his mask for some girl that he never met for no reason at all. Taking off the mask seems to symbolize that he actually is going to turn good, so cutting Han through hits that much harder. Rey and Finn try to fight off Kylo Ren, but he is a powerful dark side user and they don’t have a chance. From this point, there are three endings that are better than the one we got.

Kylo defeats them but sadistically takes his time and relishes the moment. They are barely able to escape in the Falcon with Chewbacca flying in for the getaway. Frankly, this ending changes very little but closes the hole where we have to wonder how either Rey is that powerful or Kylo Ren is really that weak.
Luke arrives in time to save them and fight Kylo Ren to a standstill. Luke may not be able to defeat Ren (why else was he in hiding), but he isn’t useless. Luke was still missing, but from this it is clear that he was actually doing something and waiting for the right moment. He has been busy. We’ll find out how in the next movie.
Leia arrives. She sensed Han in danger (or maybe she sensed her so)n and realized the time to act was now. She pulls out a lightsaber (maybe a new color, but blue or green is good, too) and proceeds to kick some butt. She also can’t defeat Ren, but buys enough time to get away. I appreciate that Leia went from Princess to General, but wouldn’t it be better if she were a Jedi General. Rey mastered the force while barely knowing it existed. How come Leia is still stuck with a blaster?

A couple other points: Kylo Ren is more menacing, less whiney. He doesn’t literally draw his lightsaber to defend himself from bad news from an underling, because that would be stupid.

DBCooper · January 2, 2016, 7:52pm

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Not picking on you but haven’t movie fans just become awful? Seems like they can’t really enjoy anything anymore.

this article is about what I mean. I bet if he were writing around the time ROTJ came out I bet he would have said “if Yoda is such a great Jedi master why does he need to live in exile?!?!?”[/quote]

Translation: I wish everyone were as willing to lap up unintelligent, juvenile, nonsensical Hollywood bullshit and then label it “good” as I am. Woe is me for having the intellectual threshold of a child and being forced to confront this unavoidable fact in the face of people with an actual brain in their head. FUck, cognitive dissonance can be a real sonofabitch sometimes. Back to my safe space.

The reality is, that for me and probably many others, the absolute failure of this film to resonate in any meaningful way is indicative of a far larger trend in this country.

I think people are growing sick and fucking tired of seeing people make millions of dollars despite the fact that they can’t even do their fucking job. It’s extremely prevalent in sports, and even more so in politics. It’s been happening for years in Hollywood as well. This film is simply the latest example. JJ Abrams and whoever was responsible for writing this thing simply did not do their job very well at all, yet they are being lionized for what they’ve done. They CLEARLY did not put a whole lot of thought into this script or the plot. That cannot be disputed.

Unless their job is to produce illogical, infantile drivel, they failed at what they were paid to do. And people like you, Raj, are as responsible for this as anyone. The masses are generally stupid fucking lemmings like yourself. It’s just disappointing that you and your kind are now the target demographic of Hollywood.

sufiandy · January 2, 2016, 9:01pm

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

Not picking on you but haven’t movie fans just become awful? Seems like they can’t really enjoy anything anymore.

this article is about what I mean. I bet if he were writing around the time ROTJ came out I bet he would have said “if Yoda is such a great Jedi master why does he need to live in exile?!?!?”[/quote]

Translation: I wish everyone were as willing to lap up unintelligent, juvenile, nonsensical Hollywood bullshit and then label it “good” as I am. Woe is me for having the intellectual threshold of a child and being forced to confront this unavoidable fact in the face of people with an actual brain in their head. FUck, cognitive dissonance can be a real sonofabitch sometimes. Back to my safe space.

The reality is, that for me and probably many others, the absolute failure of this film to resonate in any meaningful way is indicative of a far larger trend in this country.

I think people are growing sick and fucking tired of seeing people make millions of dollars despite the fact that they can’t even do their fucking job. It’s extremely prevalent in sports, and even more so in politics. It’s been happening for years in Hollywood as well. This film is simply the latest example. JJ Abrams and whoever was responsible for writing this thing simply did not do their job very well at all, yet they are being lionized for what they’ve done. They CLEARLY did not put a whole lot of thought into this script or the plot. That cannot be disputed.

Unless their job is to produce illogical, infantile drivel, they failed at what they were paid to do. And people like you, Raj, are as responsible for this as anyone. The masses are generally stupid fucking lemmings like yourself. It’s just disappointing that you and your kind are now the target demographic of Hollywood.[/quote]

Abrams job was to make as much money as possible for his employer, did he or did he not do this?

What people are growing sick of seeing people make millions who can’t do their job? Whatever your job is, if your making millions your doing something right.

You know the only people who have a right to be pissed at people making millions for not doing their job? Billionaires.

Silyak · January 2, 2016, 9:55pm

The film will make billions for Disney just because it is called Star Wars. J.J. Abrams can’t take credit for that. It had made billions before anyone ever saw it. The real question is how much damage did he do to the Star Wars name in the process. I didn’t see E7 opening night, but I knew I would see it in theaters regardless of anything anyone says. I’ll probably wait for episode 8 to hit redbox (especially if Abrams is directing). That may change, but that’s how episode 7 made me feel. Tell me again that Abrams did his job well.

DBCooper · January 2, 2016, 10:09pm