Star Wars: Force Awakens Thread

Off Topic
21

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:

Seeing that it’s a remake of the first. So what? If you don’t like that that’s obviously fine, but I’ve heard it a lot like someone thinks they’ve seen through it all and that everyone else is just eating up the merchandising pablum. I really don’t know what else the bad guys can do in one of these movies other than build a big bad war machine. You need a Star War in a Star Wars.

I loved the breath of fresh air that all the new characters were after the horrible, soulless, epilepsy-inducing prequels found a way to make Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor and Samuel. L Jackson look like shitty actors. I lobed Poe Dameron and how personable he was.

[/quote]

It was a fun film. The actors did well, the effects were believable, and the action scenes were exciting. I had the lowest of expectations going into this movie, and the Force Awakens was miles beyond the prequels. I’m just really tired of the lack of new ideas in Hollywood. It’s fine to pay homage to the original trilogy, but I feel they crossed the line into just copying the highlight reel. We’ll see if they can come up with something original for the next one, but I’m not holding my breath.

PS: I’m calling the next BS Hollywood twist; Finn is Lando Calrisian’s son.
[/quote]

I’m still not sure where his character fits in so far. It seems kind of unimportant to address his history. Rey has the skills to replace both Luke and Han and Finn is just kind of there as an extra character to interact with.

22

Regarding anything scientific or physics related in a movie-- I gave up on that a long time ago. I did my bachelor’s in physics and I remember for one of our lab assignments this kid mathematically proved how in the movie “Independence Day” that all the aliens had to do was to leave their mothership outside the orbit of Earth. Based on the sheer gravitational size, it would have created such havoc on the planet that it would have killed off everything without them ever having to get out of the mothership. I can’t enjoy that movie anymore, because I just think about how useless the whole story is now.

So, considering how Star Wars literally throws physics out the window as well-- I enjoy it for what it is: an escape from the reality that i live in.

23

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
In fact, if Snoke doesn’t turn out to be Palpatine, I’ll be fucking shocked. It’s the most obvious possibiity, given that Palpatine apparently killed the only other viable option, Plagueis.[/quote]

Palpatine thought he killed Plagueis, believing he had nothing more to learn/gain from his master. Plageuis is the ideal candidate for survival given his apparent power set and the chances of surviving a botched bed chamber assassination being higher than falling down a Death Star shaft, force combusting at the bottom then somehow escaping the destruction of the Death Star.

People are going full potato with these theories. Far worse than anything Abrams has come up with. Another popular one is that Snoke is Boba Fett…the only one I haven’t read is that Snoke is evil future Han Solo travelling into the past to ensure his creation.

24

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:

1: Why is there still a resistance in this movie? The empire collapsed 30 years ago. There is a galactic republic again, and the New Order appears to be a recently developed threat.
[/quote]

Like many things in the movie, it’s kind of addressed indirectly. Finn says he has a designation not a name, so he was taken from his family and conditioned as a stormtrooper before he was given a name or he was too young to remember it. The First Order then, is at least as old as Finn.

The First Order manages to wipe out the New Republic on the first run of Starkiller base. That suggests the tide of whatever war waged between episodes 6 & 7 had turned in TFO’s favor. It also explains the purpose of a resistance beyond JJ Abrams’ desired WWII parallels (which were a little too on the nose at times).

The New Republic also seemed to lack any real military force. My pet theory is that The First Order is the New Republic’s military arm gone rogue and they staged a coup. It explains everything from the need of a resistance to why the rebels didn’t disband the stormtroopers or outlaw anything remotely resembling Imperial iconography after their victory over the Empire.

25

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
In fact, if Snoke doesn’t turn out to be Palpatine, I’ll be fucking shocked. It’s the most obvious possibiity, given that Palpatine apparently killed the only other viable option, Plagueis.[/quote]

Palpatine thought he killed Plagueis, believing he had nothing more to learn/gain from his master. Plageuis is the ideal candidate for survival given his apparent power set and the chances of surviving a botched bed chamber assassination being higher than falling down a Death Star shaft, force combusting at the bottom then somehow escaping the destruction of the Death Star.

People are going full potato with these theories. Far worse than anything Abrams has come up with. Another popular one is that Snoke is Boba Fett…the only one I haven’t read is that Snoke is evil future Han Solo travelling into the past to ensure his creation.

[/quote]

If Snoke had such power, and if Palpatine allegedly “killed” him prior to the events in ALL of the films, why is he just now waiting to reemerge? Why wouldn’t he have reemerged in time to take out the person who tried to kill him?

The Sith are driven by vengeance and selfishness. Snoke is going after the very people responsible for the “death” of Palpatine. For one who is well-versed in the ways of the Dark Side, to the point that they can stave off death, falling down the shaft of the Death Star is nothing. NEVER underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Besides, it’s JJ Abrams. The guy is a fucking derivative hack with little creativity. The way this franchise is going, if there are several options on the table about anything involved with the films it’s best to stick with the option that requires the least amount of creativity. Bringing the Emperor back is the less creative of the options here, so I’m sticking with that one.

26

[quote]Broncoandy wrote:

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:

  1. The force is super easy these days. It took 2 movies before Luke was able to do anything worthwhile with the force. Rey pulls off mind tricks, force pulls, and light saber fighting in a matter of hours after a pep-talk about the force from the cantina owner.
    [/quote]

Girl power plot hole is easily the worst thing about this movie. Cowardly black man should have whooped that trick.[/quote]

Concur. I called her Buffy the Sith Killer. Easily the worst part of the movie.

I did enjoy seeing the Falcon.

27

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
In fact, if Snoke doesn’t turn out to be Palpatine, I’ll be fucking shocked. It’s the most obvious possibiity, given that Palpatine apparently killed the only other viable option, Plagueis.[/quote]

Palpatine thought he killed Plagueis, believing he had nothing more to learn/gain from his master. Plageuis is the ideal candidate for survival given his apparent power set and the chances of surviving a botched bed chamber assassination being higher than falling down a Death Star shaft, force combusting at the bottom then somehow escaping the destruction of the Death Star.

People are going full potato with these theories. Far worse than anything Abrams has come up with. Another popular one is that Snoke is Boba Fett…the only one I haven’t read is that Snoke is evil future Han Solo travelling into the past to ensure his creation.

[/quote]

If Snoke had such power, and if Palpatine allegedly “killed” him prior to the events in ALL of the films, why is he just now waiting to reemerge? Why wouldn’t he have reemerged in time to take out the person who tried to kill him?

The Sith are driven by vengeance and selfishness. Snoke is going after the very people responsible for the “death” of Palpatine. For one who is well-versed in the ways of the Dark Side, to the point that they can stave off death, falling down the shaft of the Death Star is nothing. NEVER underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Besides, it’s JJ Abrams. The guy is a fucking derivative hack with little creativity. The way this franchise is going, if there are several options on the table about anything involved with the films it’s best to stick with the option that requires the least amount of creativity. Bringing the Emperor back is the less creative of the options here, so I’m sticking with that one.[/quote]

OK. Based only on what I know is still canon, Palpatine never learned to stave off death. The only Sith with that ability is Plagueis. Palpatine didn’t have that power: he lured Anakin with the false hope that he could teach him. That’s why, in the opera house scene he specifically mentions Plagueis as being able to bring back the dead, not ‘Darth Sidious’. It’s a half-truth designed to play on Anakin’s fears.

Palpatine also broke the rule of two. Twice. Darth Bane intended it to strengthen the Sith with each successive generation by allowing the apprentice to become master only if he could defeat his mentor in open combat. The Emperor dodged it once by killing his master (renowned for his power of resurrection no less) in his sleep, then by using the tale of Plagueis’s power as an insurance policy against Vader trying to kill him and use him as his thrall.

It means at the very least Palpatine knew Plagueis was too powerful to defeat directly. That gives Plagueis the edge on making a reappearance (or appearance since he hasn’t been seen in a movie before)…

Fearless Leader Mason Verger looks like someone who’s stared down the business end of lightsaber. If he is Plagueis and if survived Palpatine’s attempt on his life, then it’s reasonable to say Plagueis is using his power to stay alive and has taken a long time, this long to recover. It’s certainly less of a leap than Palpatine took at the end of ROTJ.

Also they’ve set a precedent in previous Star Wars movies by having characters come back from serious injuries with cybernetic parts (Anakin/ Vader, Grievous, Luke). From what we can see Snoke has none.

On a personal note, if they’ve replaced Ian McDiarmid just to hide a twist they can get fucked.

28

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
In fact, if Snoke doesn’t turn out to be Palpatine, I’ll be fucking shocked. It’s the most obvious possibiity, given that Palpatine apparently killed the only other viable option, Plagueis.[/quote]

Palpatine thought he killed Plagueis, believing he had nothing more to learn/gain from his master. Plageuis is the ideal candidate for survival given his apparent power set and the chances of surviving a botched bed chamber assassination being higher than falling down a Death Star shaft, force combusting at the bottom then somehow escaping the destruction of the Death Star.

People are going full potato with these theories. Far worse than anything Abrams has come up with. Another popular one is that Snoke is Boba Fett…the only one I haven’t read is that Snoke is evil future Han Solo travelling into the past to ensure his creation.

[/quote]

If Snoke had such power, and if Palpatine allegedly “killed” him prior to the events in ALL of the films, why is he just now waiting to reemerge? Why wouldn’t he have reemerged in time to take out the person who tried to kill him?

The Sith are driven by vengeance and selfishness. Snoke is going after the very people responsible for the “death” of Palpatine. For one who is well-versed in the ways of the Dark Side, to the point that they can stave off death, falling down the shaft of the Death Star is nothing. NEVER underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Besides, it’s JJ Abrams. The guy is a fucking derivative hack with little creativity. The way this franchise is going, if there are several options on the table about anything involved with the films it’s best to stick with the option that requires the least amount of creativity. Bringing the Emperor back is the less creative of the options here, so I’m sticking with that one.[/quote]

OK. Based only on what I know is still canon, Palpatine never learned to stave off death. The only Sith with that ability is Plagueis. Palpatine didn’t have that power: he lured Anakin with the false hope that he could teach him. That’s why, in the opera house scene he specifically mentions Plagueis as being able to bring back the dead, not ‘Darth Sidious’. It’s a half-truth designed to play on Anakin’s fears.

Palpatine also broke the rule of two. Twice. Darth Bane intended it to strengthen the Sith with each successive generation by allowing the apprentice to become master only if he could defeat his mentor in open combat. The Emperor dodged it once by killing his master (renowned for his power of resurrection no less) in his sleep, then by using the tale of Plagueis’s power as an insurance policy against Vader trying to kill him and use him as his thrall.

It means at the very least Palpatine knew Plagueis was too powerful to defeat directly. That gives Plagueis the edge on making a reappearance (or appearance since he hasn’t been seen in a movie before)…

Fearless Leader Mason Verger looks like someone who’s stared down the business end of lightsaber. If he is Plagueis and if survived Palpatine’s attempt on his life, then it’s reasonable to say Plagueis is using his power to stay alive and has taken a long time, this long to recover. It’s certainly less of a leap than Palpatine took at the end of ROTJ.

Also they’ve set a precedent in previous Star Wars movies by having characters come back from serious injuries with cybernetic parts (Anakin/ Vader, Grievous, Luke). From what we can see Snoke has none.

On a personal note, if they’ve replaced Ian McDiarmid just to hide a twist they can get fucked.
[/quote]

I’m not sure that what’s canon really matters here. Lucas has already said that he isn’t happy with where the franchise is headed AND that his story ideas have already been rejected by Abrams in favor of what is essentially a remake of A New Hope. And let’s not kid ourselves. That’s all this movie is: a remake.

Darth Bane and all that is a Lucas creation to supplement the prequels. And I’m not sure that what Palpatine says carries all that much weight, given he’s a lying, treacherous bastard. Besides, in several novels he’s sort of resurrected after ROTJ anyways. I think maybe they try to clone him or something like that. So it wouldn’t be entirely without precedent.

Regardless, Abrams is making films for the fanbase. He knows that people generally love the Emperor as the personification of evil now that Vader no longer fills that role. There is nothing in Abrams’ history to suggest that he’ll do something original. We can banter back and forth about canonical material and all that, but at the end of the day what really matters is who’s making the films. And the “canon” is a Lucas product, first and foremost. And Lucas just came out and said that he sold the franchise to white slavers, amongst other comments that reveal his displeasure at the franchise’s direction. I’m guessing that a willingness to reject canon and originality in favor of what the audience is familiar with is what Lucas is unhappy about.

Fuck, Revenge of the Sith was LIGHT YEARS better than this film.

29

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
In fact, if Snoke doesn’t turn out to be Palpatine, I’ll be fucking shocked. It’s the most obvious possibiity, given that Palpatine apparently killed the only other viable option, Plagueis.[/quote]

Palpatine thought he killed Plagueis, believing he had nothing more to learn/gain from his master. Plageuis is the ideal candidate for survival given his apparent power set and the chances of surviving a botched bed chamber assassination being higher than falling down a Death Star shaft, force combusting at the bottom then somehow escaping the destruction of the Death Star.

People are going full potato with these theories. Far worse than anything Abrams has come up with. Another popular one is that Snoke is Boba Fett…the only one I haven’t read is that Snoke is evil future Han Solo travelling into the past to ensure his creation.

[/quote]

If Snoke had such power, and if Palpatine allegedly “killed” him prior to the events in ALL of the films, why is he just now waiting to reemerge? Why wouldn’t he have reemerged in time to take out the person who tried to kill him?

The Sith are driven by vengeance and selfishness. Snoke is going after the very people responsible for the “death” of Palpatine. For one who is well-versed in the ways of the Dark Side, to the point that they can stave off death, falling down the shaft of the Death Star is nothing. NEVER underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Besides, it’s JJ Abrams. The guy is a fucking derivative hack with little creativity. The way this franchise is going, if there are several options on the table about anything involved with the films it’s best to stick with the option that requires the least amount of creativity. Bringing the Emperor back is the less creative of the options here, so I’m sticking with that one.[/quote]

OK. Based only on what I know is still canon, Palpatine never learned to stave off death. The only Sith with that ability is Plagueis. Palpatine didn’t have that power: he lured Anakin with the false hope that he could teach him. That’s why, in the opera house scene he specifically mentions Plagueis as being able to bring back the dead, not ‘Darth Sidious’. It’s a half-truth designed to play on Anakin’s fears.

Palpatine also broke the rule of two. Twice. Darth Bane intended it to strengthen the Sith with each successive generation by allowing the apprentice to become master only if he could defeat his mentor in open combat. The Emperor dodged it once by killing his master (renowned for his power of resurrection no less) in his sleep, then by using the tale of Plagueis’s power as an insurance policy against Vader trying to kill him and use him as his thrall.

It means at the very least Palpatine knew Plagueis was too powerful to defeat directly. That gives Plagueis the edge on making a reappearance (or appearance since he hasn’t been seen in a movie before)…

Fearless Leader Mason Verger looks like someone who’s stared down the business end of lightsaber. If he is Plagueis and if survived Palpatine’s attempt on his life, then it’s reasonable to say Plagueis is using his power to stay alive and has taken a long time, this long to recover. It’s certainly less of a leap than Palpatine took at the end of ROTJ.

Also they’ve set a precedent in previous Star Wars movies by having characters come back from serious injuries with cybernetic parts (Anakin/ Vader, Grievous, Luke). From what we can see Snoke has none.

On a personal note, if they’ve replaced Ian McDiarmid just to hide a twist they can get fucked.
[/quote]

The Fearless Leader also looks like a guy who’s had some Force-inspired lightning bolts inadvertently bounce off his face a few times, too. And that fucking head of his looks like he might have bounced it off the walls of a large shaft a few times, too. His distorted, elongated shape may be some bizarre product of his resurrection powers.

30

Plagueis makes the most sense to come back, most obviously because he looks non-human and it would be dumb to have it really be Palpatine. It would also make the story much better to now have the Sith be someone who was more powerful than Palpatine. Although since they were both killed the more powerful would simply be the one who survived death at this point.

As a movie I think there is more to gain by having it be someone new, especially one mentioned in a previous movie. I always hated the way they killed the emperor, it made him not look very powerful as he couldn’t stop his lightening as vader slowly carried him to be thrown off the edge. As a human Palpatine was just old and obviously affected by it, Plagueis could be an alien who naturally lives longer, like Yoda did.

On the other hand there was at least 20 years between when Palpatine mentioned Plagueis and possibly even longer from the time he was apparently killed. Palpatine had plenty of time to gain more skills, specifically the resurrection one.

31

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Plagueis makes the most sense to come back, most obviously because he looks non-human and it would be dumb to have it really be Palpatine. It would also make the story much better to now have the Sith be someone who was more powerful than Palpatine. Although since they were both killed the more powerful would simply be the one who survived death at this point.

As a movie I think there is more to gain by having it be someone new, especially one mentioned in a previous movie. I always hated the way they killed the emperor, it made him not look very powerful as he couldn’t stop his lightening as vader slowly carried him to be thrown off the edge. As a human Palpatine was just old and obviously affected by it, Plagueis could be an alien who naturally lives longer, like Yoda did.

On the other hand there was at least 20 years between when Palpatine mentioned Plagueis and possibly even longer from the time he was apparently killed. Palpatine had plenty of time to gain more skills, specifically the resurrection one. [/quote]

This film is filled with so many plot holes the size of the Sarlaac Pit it makes zero sense to base any predictions on what “makes sense”.

Quite frankly, it’s fucking disgusting how illogical and nonsensical the plot is. The people who wrote this thing are supposed to be fucking professionals and yet, it’s as if they didn’t even TRY to make the thing make sense. The Writers’ Guild should revoke their membership.

32

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
In fact, if Snoke doesn’t turn out to be Palpatine, I’ll be fucking shocked. It’s the most obvious possibiity, given that Palpatine apparently killed the only other viable option, Plagueis.[/quote]

Palpatine thought he killed Plagueis, believing he had nothing more to learn/gain from his master. Plageuis is the ideal candidate for survival given his apparent power set and the chances of surviving a botched bed chamber assassination being higher than falling down a Death Star shaft, force combusting at the bottom then somehow escaping the destruction of the Death Star.

People are going full potato with these theories. Far worse than anything Abrams has come up with. Another popular one is that Snoke is Boba Fett…the only one I haven’t read is that Snoke is evil future Han Solo travelling into the past to ensure his creation.

[/quote]

If Snoke had such power, and if Palpatine allegedly “killed” him prior to the events in ALL of the films, why is he just now waiting to reemerge? Why wouldn’t he have reemerged in time to take out the person who tried to kill him?

The Sith are driven by vengeance and selfishness. Snoke is going after the very people responsible for the “death” of Palpatine. For one who is well-versed in the ways of the Dark Side, to the point that they can stave off death, falling down the shaft of the Death Star is nothing. NEVER underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Besides, it’s JJ Abrams. The guy is a fucking derivative hack with little creativity. The way this franchise is going, if there are several options on the table about anything involved with the films it’s best to stick with the option that requires the least amount of creativity. Bringing the Emperor back is the less creative of the options here, so I’m sticking with that one.[/quote]

OK. Based only on what I know is still canon, Palpatine never learned to stave off death. The only Sith with that ability is Plagueis. Palpatine didn’t have that power: he lured Anakin with the false hope that he could teach him. That’s why, in the opera house scene he specifically mentions Plagueis as being able to bring back the dead, not ‘Darth Sidious’. It’s a half-truth designed to play on Anakin’s fears.

Palpatine also broke the rule of two. Twice. Darth Bane intended it to strengthen the Sith with each successive generation by allowing the apprentice to become master only if he could defeat his mentor in open combat. The Emperor dodged it once by killing his master (renowned for his power of resurrection no less) in his sleep, then by using the tale of Plagueis’s power as an insurance policy against Vader trying to kill him and use him as his thrall.

It means at the very least Palpatine knew Plagueis was too powerful to defeat directly. That gives Plagueis the edge on making a reappearance (or appearance since he hasn’t been seen in a movie before)…

Fearless Leader Mason Verger looks like someone who’s stared down the business end of lightsaber. If he is Plagueis and if survived Palpatine’s attempt on his life, then it’s reasonable to say Plagueis is using his power to stay alive and has taken a long time, this long to recover. It’s certainly less of a leap than Palpatine took at the end of ROTJ.

Also they’ve set a precedent in previous Star Wars movies by having characters come back from serious injuries with cybernetic parts (Anakin/ Vader, Grievous, Luke). From what we can see Snoke has none.

On a personal note, if they’ve replaced Ian McDiarmid just to hide a twist they can get fucked.
[/quote]

I’m not sure that what’s canon really matters here. Lucas has already said that he isn’t happy with where the franchise is headed AND that his story ideas have already been rejected by Abrams in favor of what is essentially a remake of A New Hope. And let’s not kid ourselves. That’s all this movie is: a remake.

Darth Bane and all that is a Lucas creation to supplement the prequels. And I’m not sure that what Palpatine says carries all that much weight, given he’s a lying, treacherous bastard. Besides, in several novels he’s sort of resurrected after ROTJ anyways. I think maybe they try to clone him or something like that. So it wouldn’t be entirely without precedent.

Regardless, Abrams is making films for the fanbase. He knows that people generally love the Emperor as the personification of evil now that Vader no longer fills that role. There is nothing in Abrams’ history to suggest that he’ll do something original. We can banter back and forth about canonical material and all that, but at the end of the day what really matters is who’s making the films. And the “canon” is a Lucas product, first and foremost. And Lucas just came out and said that he sold the franchise to white slavers, amongst other comments that reveal his displeasure at the franchise’s direction. I’m guessing that a willingness to reject canon and originality in favor of what the audience is familiar with is what Lucas is unhappy about.

Fuck, Revenge of the Sith was LIGHT YEARS better than this film.[/quote]

There’s no back and forth to be had over what is and what isn’t canon.

Most of the EU material has been re-branded as non-canonical Star Wars Legends. Disney have said the movies -prequels included- are still canon, therefore what happens within them is the most reliable source of info we have to hand. I wouldn’t have bothered posting if it were otherwise and I did so to avoid undue speculation. What George Lucas says now is irrelevant. He didn’t listen to fans when he owned Lucasfilm and he was happy enough to deal with the ‘white slavers’ when it suited him.

33

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
In fact, if Snoke doesn’t turn out to be Palpatine, I’ll be fucking shocked. It’s the most obvious possibiity, given that Palpatine apparently killed the only other viable option, Plagueis.[/quote]

Palpatine thought he killed Plagueis, believing he had nothing more to learn/gain from his master. Plageuis is the ideal candidate for survival given his apparent power set and the chances of surviving a botched bed chamber assassination being higher than falling down a Death Star shaft, force combusting at the bottom then somehow escaping the destruction of the Death Star.

People are going full potato with these theories. Far worse than anything Abrams has come up with. Another popular one is that Snoke is Boba Fett…the only one I haven’t read is that Snoke is evil future Han Solo travelling into the past to ensure his creation.

[/quote]

If Snoke had such power, and if Palpatine allegedly “killed” him prior to the events in ALL of the films, why is he just now waiting to reemerge? Why wouldn’t he have reemerged in time to take out the person who tried to kill him?

The Sith are driven by vengeance and selfishness. Snoke is going after the very people responsible for the “death” of Palpatine. For one who is well-versed in the ways of the Dark Side, to the point that they can stave off death, falling down the shaft of the Death Star is nothing. NEVER underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Besides, it’s JJ Abrams. The guy is a fucking derivative hack with little creativity. The way this franchise is going, if there are several options on the table about anything involved with the films it’s best to stick with the option that requires the least amount of creativity. Bringing the Emperor back is the less creative of the options here, so I’m sticking with that one.[/quote]

OK. Based only on what I know is still canon, Palpatine never learned to stave off death. The only Sith with that ability is Plagueis. Palpatine didn’t have that power: he lured Anakin with the false hope that he could teach him. That’s why, in the opera house scene he specifically mentions Plagueis as being able to bring back the dead, not ‘Darth Sidious’. It’s a half-truth designed to play on Anakin’s fears.

Palpatine also broke the rule of two. Twice. Darth Bane intended it to strengthen the Sith with each successive generation by allowing the apprentice to become master only if he could defeat his mentor in open combat. The Emperor dodged it once by killing his master (renowned for his power of resurrection no less) in his sleep, then by using the tale of Plagueis’s power as an insurance policy against Vader trying to kill him and use him as his thrall.

It means at the very least Palpatine knew Plagueis was too powerful to defeat directly. That gives Plagueis the edge on making a reappearance (or appearance since he hasn’t been seen in a movie before)…

Fearless Leader Mason Verger looks like someone who’s stared down the business end of lightsaber. If he is Plagueis and if survived Palpatine’s attempt on his life, then it’s reasonable to say Plagueis is using his power to stay alive and has taken a long time, this long to recover. It’s certainly less of a leap than Palpatine took at the end of ROTJ.

Also they’ve set a precedent in previous Star Wars movies by having characters come back from serious injuries with cybernetic parts (Anakin/ Vader, Grievous, Luke). From what we can see Snoke has none.

On a personal note, if they’ve replaced Ian McDiarmid just to hide a twist they can get fucked.
[/quote]

I’m not sure that what’s canon really matters here. Lucas has already said that he isn’t happy with where the franchise is headed AND that his story ideas have already been rejected by Abrams in favor of what is essentially a remake of A New Hope. And let’s not kid ourselves. That’s all this movie is: a remake.

Darth Bane and all that is a Lucas creation to supplement the prequels. And I’m not sure that what Palpatine says carries all that much weight, given he’s a lying, treacherous bastard. Besides, in several novels he’s sort of resurrected after ROTJ anyways. I think maybe they try to clone him or something like that. So it wouldn’t be entirely without precedent.

Regardless, Abrams is making films for the fanbase. He knows that people generally love the Emperor as the personification of evil now that Vader no longer fills that role. There is nothing in Abrams’ history to suggest that he’ll do something original. We can banter back and forth about canonical material and all that, but at the end of the day what really matters is who’s making the films. And the “canon” is a Lucas product, first and foremost. And Lucas just came out and said that he sold the franchise to white slavers, amongst other comments that reveal his displeasure at the franchise’s direction. I’m guessing that a willingness to reject canon and originality in favor of what the audience is familiar with is what Lucas is unhappy about.

Fuck, Revenge of the Sith was LIGHT YEARS better than this film.[/quote]

There’s no back and forth to be had over what is and what isn’t canon.

Most of the EU material has been re-branded as non-canonical Star Wars Legends. Disney have said the movies -prequels included- are still canon, therefore what happens within them is the most reliable source of info we have to hand. I wouldn’t have bothered posting it were otherwise and I did so to avoid undue speculation. What George Lucas says now is irrelevant. He didn’t listen to fans when he owned Lucasfilm and he was happy enough to deal with the ‘white slavers’ when it suited him.
[/quote]

The whole white slavers comment, coming from him, was fucking laughable. The motherfucker wasn’t hesitant about lauding the film and Abrams and all that, but now that the thing is actually OUT, he fucking hates it.

The white slaver comment is like listening to a mid-19th century Portuguese condemn the American South for the institution of slavery.

34

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Plagueis makes the most sense to come back, most obviously because he looks non-human and it would be dumb to have it really be Palpatine. It would also make the story much better to now have the Sith be someone who was more powerful than Palpatine. Although since they were both killed the more powerful would simply be the one who survived death at this point.

As a movie I think there is more to gain by having it be someone new, especially one mentioned in a previous movie. I always hated the way they killed the emperor, it made him not look very powerful as he couldn’t stop his lightening as vader slowly carried him to be thrown off the edge. As a human Palpatine was just old and obviously affected by it, Plagueis could be an alien who naturally lives longer, like Yoda did.

On the other hand there was at least 20 years between when Palpatine mentioned Plagueis and possibly even longer from the time he was apparently killed. Palpatine had plenty of time to gain more skills, specifically the resurrection one. [/quote]

This film is filled with so many plot holes the size of the Sarlaac Pit it makes zero sense to base any predictions on what “makes sense”.

Quite frankly, it’s fucking disgusting how illogical and nonsensical the plot is. The people who wrote this thing are supposed to be fucking professionals and yet, it’s as if they didn’t even TRY to make the thing make sense. The Writers’ Guild should revoke their membership.

[/quote]

Serious question: if you had a shot at writing episode VII, what would you have done differently?

35

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:
It was an enjoyable film, but absolutely no novel ideas were present. Just rehash A New Hope (a bigger death star! a young force user on a desert planet with a robot that is A GIRL!) and copy paste ideas from Empire (ice planet battle scene, incredibly old force mentor, father/son fight on a catwalk over a looming abyss!) to make billions of dollars. I still am uncertain why everyone raves about JJ Abrams ; he is just an expert of ripping off other sci-fi films.

My list of plot-holes:

1: Why is there still a resistance in this movie? The empire collapsed 30 years ago. There is a galactic republic again, and the New Order appears to be a recently developed threat.

2: How does the star killer work a second time? It absorbs a star for each shot, and the New Order exhausted its energy supply in a day. I know there are binary star systems in space, but finding solar systems with more than 2 stars seems highly unlikely. Also, moving an entire planet towards a new star would take a really long time.

  1. The force is super easy these days. It took 2 movies before Luke was able to do anything worthwhile with the force. Rey pulls off mind tricks, force pulls, and light saber fighting in a matter of hours after a pep-talk about the force from the cantina owner.
    [/quote]

This basically matches with my opinion. It was ok, but not the multi-billion $ blockbuster it’s going to become. But I feel that way about the whole Star Wars series. I really don’t get what the big deal is. They are really good if you’re between the ages of 8-16. Before that they’re too confusing, and after that you notice the huge plot holes and other absurdities too much.

36

[quote]roybot wrote:

Serious question: if you had a shot at writing episode VII, what would you have done differently?[/quote]

I think it would have been more interesting if several factions of the Empire were fighting for dominance after the destruction of the deathstar. There had to be tons of Empire admirals with their own star destroyers who feel they are the best candidate for new emperor. Instead of one unified New Order, you have a multi-sided war going on between them while the resistance and new republic are trying to protect everyone else from collateral damage.

If you wanted, you could have someone form the New Order (with Sith support to keep the Force present) over the 3 films to become the next Big Bad to be wrecked in the third movie. This setting would give a concrete reason for the resistance to still be present, allow the new republic to function for more than 30 seconds, and the plot wouldn’t be as simplistic as “we have a new empire, exactly like the old empire”.

37

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Plagueis makes the most sense to come back, most obviously because he looks non-human and it would be dumb to have it really be Palpatine. It would also make the story much better to now have the Sith be someone who was more powerful than Palpatine. Although since they were both killed the more powerful would simply be the one who survived death at this point.

As a movie I think there is more to gain by having it be someone new, especially one mentioned in a previous movie. I always hated the way they killed the emperor, it made him not look very powerful as he couldn’t stop his lightening as vader slowly carried him to be thrown off the edge. As a human Palpatine was just old and obviously affected by it, Plagueis could be an alien who naturally lives longer, like Yoda did.

On the other hand there was at least 20 years between when Palpatine mentioned Plagueis and possibly even longer from the time he was apparently killed. Palpatine had plenty of time to gain more skills, specifically the resurrection one. [/quote]

This film is filled with so many plot holes the size of the Sarlaac Pit it makes zero sense to base any predictions on what “makes sense”.

Quite frankly, it’s fucking disgusting how illogical and nonsensical the plot is. The people who wrote this thing are supposed to be fucking professionals and yet, it’s as if they didn’t even TRY to make the thing make sense. The Writers’ Guild should revoke their membership.

[/quote]

Serious question: if you had a shot at writing episode VII, what would you have done differently?[/quote]

Ren would be able to sense his father within 20 feet of him, for starters.

He wouldn’t have left the most powerful Force-sensitive person he’s come across, aside from Snoke, to be guarded by ONE fucking Stormtrooper.

I would never have used the Starkiller idea. Like I said earlier, it’s a bastardized cross between Unicron and that thing from Space Balls.

There’s a lot of other things I would have done differently that I don’t have the time to get into in detail right now. But suffice it to say that I would have written a FAR more logical plot. Not necessarily more realistic, just more logical. I also would not have recycled literally EVERY plot device from the original films.

38

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

Serious question: if you had a shot at writing episode VII, what would you have done differently?[/quote]

I think it would have been more interesting if several factions of the Empire were fighting for dominance after the destruction of the deathstar. There had to be tons of Empire admirals with their own star destroyers who feel they are the best candidate for new emperor. Instead of one unified New Order, you have a multi-sided war going on between them while the resistance and new republic are trying to protect everyone else from collateral damage. This setting would give a concrete reason for the resistance to still be present, and it wouldn’t be as simplistic as “we have a new empire, exactly like the old empire”. [/quote]

And what the fuck is there to resist if the rebels defeated the Empire?

Or was it never defeated in the first place? Or is the New Order the survival of a war amongst factions? At any rate, if this is the case, why is there a Republic AND a Resistance?

I’m telling you, for people with half a brain in their heads this movie raised more significant points of pure illogicality than anything else. At this rate, the next one has to be SPECTACULARLY well-written in order to clarify the sheer amount of bullshit, half-baked concepts contained with “Awakens”.

This is indicative of everything wrong with movies these days, especially the blockbuster. Massive amounts of hype, marketing, blah, blah, blah. And apparently not one single iota focused on producing a GOOD STORY. And that is what made the originals so great. It wasn’t the special effects or the acting. It was the overall story. It had appeal. This shit is just a massive marketing ploy to make money for an industry that is deservedly hemorrhaging it year after year.

39

[quote]Fishdog70 wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

Serious question: if you had a shot at writing episode VII, what would you have done differently?[/quote]

I think it would have been more interesting if several factions of the Empire were fighting for dominance after the destruction of the deathstar. There had to be tons of Empire admirals with their own star destroyers who feel they are the best candidate for new emperor. Instead of one unified New Order, you have a multi-sided war going on between them while the resistance and new republic are trying to protect everyone else from collateral damage. If you wanted, you could have someone form the New Order (with Sith support to keep the Force present) over the 3 films to become the next Big Bad to be wrecked in the third movie. This setting would give a concrete reason for the resistance to still be present, allow the new republic to function for more than 30 seconds, and the plot wouldn’t be as simplistic as “we have a new empire, exactly like the old empire”. [/quote]

That could be good in other movies, and maybe already has. Star wars is your basic good vs evil story and you can’t stray from that. It does require things to be too simplistic but that is part of star wars.

40

I think it was good. I’d see it again, but I have some thoughts…

First and foremost, everyone who isn’t a sheep needs to see the movie for what it is: a cash cow for Disney. With that in mind, they’re going to do whatever they need to do to get people to come out and watch it. If they have to essentially make it a clone of the original, then obviously they’ll do it. If they have to propogandize (I know, it’s not a word, but you get what I’m saying) the response from critics and “fans” and make it seem more like it was well-received when it really wasn’t so much, then they’ll do it.

DB, I find your reaction refreshing. It’s confusing me that so many people are satisfied with the movie. Don’t get me wrong, like I said, I thought it was good, but a lot of hardcore star wars people are being awfully accepting of it in my opinion. I think there’s an element of needing to not be disappointed again that is at play with that, as well. Like a lot of people are in denial about how not good it really was.

I’d have to give it a B- or C+ if I graded it, it could have gotten an A if a few things were different…

For starters, as others have said, how the hell can Ray just use all these force powers? As I said to a friend after the movie, this really caters to the new generations need for instant gratification. Oh, did every other Jedi have to train like fuck to learn that stuff before they could do it? Cool, well she’s just that awesome like our generation, so we’re just good at things without putting in work. It’s pathetic, to be honest. I could have handled it at first when she naturally figured out how to stop Ren from reading her mind and it’s a little far-fetched, but even when she pushed it back at him I could still dig it. But then she starts using jedi mind tricks and by the end is straight force-pushing (or rather pulling) stuff. What the hell, man? Dumbest thing in the movie to me.

People also forget that Ren was injured when he fought them at the end, but it still wasn’t realistic for him to lose if he was straight holding laser blasts in place while devoting attention to other things at the same time earlier in the movie. This makes no sense at all. I can be explained away by pointing out that his training wasn’t complete and he hadn’t learned how to do everything, yet, I suppose, but it still bothered me.

It would have at least made more sense if they fought Ren together instead of one on one, back to back. And there are other ways it could have made more sense, like someone else mentioned, if Luke showed up and offered some assistance or straight pulled a Yoda scene from episode II and completely saved them, in my opinion, that would have made the end waaaaaaaaaay better. Or instead of Luke, Leia did it. She’s a potential force user and perhaps over the years she did training of her own and was able to actually fight like a Jedi by then, at least enough to fight off Ren with their help. That would have been awesome, too, and made a lot more sense than what happened.

Why were they not using any new star fighters? So we saw the Millenium Falcon which was awesome, but then they were all flying the same damn X-Wings. The only new thing we saw was a 2-man tie fighter. Really? This was a golden opportunity for some cool new starfighters. They completely dropped the ball on that one. One of the good things about the prequals was that there were so many new (older) models being used throughout the movies. Lucas went overboard with it, obviously, but it was the right idea in my opinion, just not implemented properly.

Ren and Ray sure started falling in love pretty fast in that movie, too. I understand they went through some shit together, but in my opinion they were way to fond of each other, way too fast. Some will disagree with me on that one, but it was another thing that bothered me about the movie. I think their relationship could have been done better. I know that this movie was meant to get people re-interested in Star Wars again and to get new fans. So the young people will like that instant gratification thing I mentioned earlier and the old people will like all the homages to the old movies (even though there wasn’t a whole lot of new stuff, at all).

They could have spent more time explaining more back story. I get that they can reveal more in future movies, but it would have been nice to know how the Republic was so weak that a single blast from First Order’s fake death star could destroy it and Corisan was just gone so quickly. It was very anti-climactic for me. I think it would have been better if they’d had just spent a little more time on back story. Nothing heavy, just a little more explanation to satisfy curisosities a little more while still leaving certain things unknown for the next movies.

Speaking of anti-climactic, as soon as the scene started when Han was killed by his son, I knew what they were doing. I give them a pass with that because they tried to make it epic, my problem was that the effort in making it epic made it uber-predictable. I didn’t know going into the movie that Han was going to die, but as soon as Ren walked out onto the bridge and Han went after him it was obvious what was about to happen.

Luke could have played a bigger part, but that’s not a biggie to me. Again, they’re trying to renew interest and we have to be all-in for the next 2. So they’ll leave some things on the table to look forward to and I can’t bring myself to get too mad at them for that.

Aside from this stuff, I thought it was solid and I would go see it again. But if they could change those aspects of the movie, I think it would have been way better.