Not sure if this will help, but I notice you’re pushing your neck back before each rep, but end up still looking down. Picture is the second rep on 275 w/flat from the side.
Alpha listed some steps in his training log for the squat one of which was to drive your neck back into the bar as hard as you can. Maybe that will help?
Edit: Not sure if it will for lowish bar squatting…
Beginning of rep 2.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Thank you so much lift206, I’ll begin to incorporate both those movements.
For Reed and the rest of you, here are some triples with 275 in Flat wrestling shoes vs my heeled Oly shoes. I did 4 sets, both sets with flats first, and then 2 sets with my oly shoes. Sadly the video from the sideview on the Oly sets (3rd set total) didn’t record for some reason, so I only have 3 of the sets.
My eye for this isn’t great, but they don’t look tremendously different. The flats felt like I was ‘falling over’ more and I felt a little worse overall. The Oly shoes in comparison I felt I was more upright and it was much easier to stay on my heels, at least it felt that way. But I’ll let ya’ll look and tell me what you think.
Also tried to really work on the abdominal bracing, but you can see by my last set I was exerting a lot of energy just staying tight. It’s definitely a different challenge, but I think with some work I can really learn to hold the pressure in better and stay tight all the way through. [/quote]
Thanks for posting the video. Wearing Oly shoes is masking the problem. I fell into the same trap. With Oly shoes you are more upright which reduces the moment arm from the bar to your lower back so it feels easier to stay up. However, when you hit weights close to your PR you’ll have much more forward lean and even with Oly shoes it’ll be difficult to keep your chest from collapsing. You can figure out which shoes are more useful later on because the main goal should still be learning to create a rigid torso.
IMO, the most important things to learn in powerlifting are: 1) torso rigidity, 2) keeping the hips close to the bar, 3) hinging. The first is required to learn in order to do the last two effectively. These movement patterns have to be learned and without a belt before nailing down the details of what stance width to use, how much sit back is ideal, shoe type, etc. My preference would be front squats and snatch grip RDLs with straps to master these movement patterns but other lifts teach the same thing, like pin squats which you were considering. Regardless of what lift you choose, the goal is to execute the above movement patterns. Do them correctly and don’t sacrifice form for weight. If you don’t feel tension in your chest, lats, erectors and abs then you’re still doing them wrong - you should feel tightness regardless of how much weight is on the bar. It’ll take a few months until it becomes second nature.
Take it how you like but, I personally feel you look much better in the flats. You are also spreading the floor in them better. I bet if you stay in the flat and continue to work the technique, along with hitting front squats, and core hard you will easily start hitting at least the same numbers you are in Oly shoes with in the month with a relative ease.
I watched your new video and it still seems like the same thing to me. The weight has to be over the middle of your foot. You are trying to stay too upright on the way down.
When you have a low bar position and you try to stay upright it puts the weight in front of the middle of your foot. You drive out of the hole and the bar moves backward to be in line with the middle of your foot and you finish the lift.
Either descend with a more horizontal back angle and sit back, or move the bar up and stay more vertical.
Edit: I hope that doesn’t seem dickish. Just somethings to try out the next time you squat.
Man, lots to think about now.
usmccds423: Damn dude, thanks for that, it honestly helps me see where I’m fucking up. HeavyTriple always gets on me for looking down, and I really tried to look straight ahead at least, but damn, I still end up looking down. Also looking at the pic that you drew the line on, it looks like the weight is over my heels? Which actually means it NEEDS to be over my upper/midfoot, judging by that drawing? Because I’ve alwayssss tried to put the weight on my heel so that’s confusing me
lift206: So are you suggesting I ditch belted work for awhile? I tried to really keep my torso rigid and hips close with front squats today. I obviously had to knock some weight off, but is this more of what I should be doing?
[quote]Reed wrote:
Take it how you like but, I personally feel you look much better in the flats. You are also spreading the floor in them better. I bet if you stay in the flat and continue to work the technique, along with hitting front squats, and core hard you will easily start hitting at least the same numbers you are in Oly shoes with in the month with a relative ease. [/quote]
What is it exactly you feel the Oly shoes are messing up? If I learn to ‘spread the floor’ with them on better like you say I do in flats, would that maybe be a best of both worlds scenario?
[quote]Alrightmiami19c wrote:
I watched your new video and it still seems like the same thing to me. The weight has to be over the middle of your foot. You are trying to stay too upright on the way down.
When you have a low bar position and you try to stay upright it puts the weight in front of the middle of your foot. You drive out of the hole and the bar moves backward to be in line with the middle of your foot and you finish the lift.
Either descend with a more horizontal back angle and sit back, or move the bar up and stay more vertical.
Edit: I hope that doesn’t seem dickish. Just somethings to try out the next time you squat.[/quote]
No dude you’re fine lol. I’ve never thought of descending already leaning over, as fighting to stay upright is what I’m doing for most my Squat lol. I still HB Squat as assistance work, and feel my leverages are probably better suited for low bar (if I ever want to squat something appreciable), so I guess maybe really nailing my core stability and just starting with a bit of a lean will help a lot, because at least if I start in that position and maintain it I won’t have the issue of my hips shooting up.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Here’s another comparison that might help. [/quote]
I appreciate you taking the time to do this man. I guess I’m confused though. The diagram seems to show the bar needs to be over the front/mid part of my foot, and I’ve alwaysss focused on having it over and pushing through me heels. Is that an issue?
[quote]lift206 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Thank you so much lift206, I’ll begin to incorporate both those movements.
For Reed and the rest of you, here are some triples with 275 in Flat wrestling shoes vs my heeled Oly shoes. I did 4 sets, both sets with flats first, and then 2 sets with my oly shoes. Sadly the video from the sideview on the Oly sets (3rd set total) didn’t record for some reason, so I only have 3 of the sets.
My eye for this isn’t great, but they don’t look tremendously different. The flats felt like I was ‘falling over’ more and I felt a little worse overall. The Oly shoes in comparison I felt I was more upright and it was much easier to stay on my heels, at least it felt that way. But I’ll let ya’ll look and tell me what you think.
Also tried to really work on the abdominal bracing, but you can see by my last set I was exerting a lot of energy just staying tight. It’s definitely a different challenge, but I think with some work I can really learn to hold the pressure in better and stay tight all the way through. [/quote]
Thanks for posting the video. Wearing Oly shoes is masking the problem. I fell into the same trap. With Oly shoes you are more upright which reduces the moment arm from the bar to your lower back so it feels easier to stay up. However, when you hit weights close to your PR you’ll have much more forward lean and even with Oly shoes it’ll be difficult to keep your chest from collapsing. You can figure out which shoes are more useful later on because the main goal should still be learning to create a rigid torso.
IMO, the most important things to learn in powerlifting are: 1) torso rigidity, 2) keeping the hips close to the bar, 3) hinging. The first is required to learn in order to do the last two effectively. These movement patterns have to be learned and without a belt before nailing down the details of what stance width to use, how much sit back is ideal, shoe type, etc. My preference would be front squats and snatch grip RDLs with straps to master these movement patterns but other lifts teach the same thing, like pin squats which you were considering. Regardless of what lift you choose, the goal is to execute the above movement patterns. Do them correctly and don’t sacrifice form for weight. If you don’t feel tension in your chest, lats, erectors and abs then you’re still doing them wrong - you should feel tightness regardless of how much weight is on the bar. It’ll take a few months until it becomes second nature.[/quote]
So are you suggesting I potentially start doing only beltless work, and only Front Squats? Or just use them or possibly pin squats as my accessory movement? I’ve tried to take your advice, keeping the hips ‘close’ to the bar, required less weight. But here, is this more of a form I should be going for to help fix the problems?
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
lift206: So are you suggesting I ditch belted work for awhile? I tried to really keep my torso rigid and hips close with front squats today. I obviously had to knock some weight off, but is this more of what I should be doing?
[/quote]
It still looks like you aren’t tight. Your elbows are going down when you come out of the hole and this shouldn’t be happening unless you’re failing. You really have to focus on keeping your elbows up to get your back tight. Packing your neck hard while looking straight ahead or slightly up should help. You might have to drop the weight a bit more to the point where you hips don’t shoot back at all and your elbows never drop down. When your elbows drop down it likely means you’re starting to lean over. That’s okay for a PR but not for all of your working sets. You really need to bring up your core strength. Aside from hollow holds, you can also do some paused breathing front squats with light weight at the end of your workout. Hold the bottom position and lean forward a bit while keeping your back in a neutral position to force your abs to work (but still force your elbows up). Your abs will work hard if you do them right.
If the elbows up doesn’t get your back tight, it could mean the weight is still too heavy for your abs to handle. You’ll have to be patient because it is lagging so far behind but it shouldn’t take that long to catch up with everything else.
If you really have trouble getting your elbows up, you can try zercher squats or SSB squats since they should work your weaknesses. Even for these you’ll still need to learn to brace correctly.
Edit: I forgot to answer your question. Yes you should do beltless work for awhile because you need to learn good lifting mechanics and what a neutral spine feels like before adding in a belt. It’ll only take a few sessions to get used to the belt when you add it back in. Using weights that are easy for your legs to handle will let you place much greater emphasis on what really needs work.
You should focus strictly on torso rigidity if you want to prevent it from being a recurring problem in the future. I would suggest front squats so that you could force the abs and upper back to get stronger fast. Just remember that it doesn’t matter how much weight you’re using if you aren’t training the muscles and the movement correctly.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
Take it how you like but, I personally feel you look much better in the flats. You are also spreading the floor in them better. I bet if you stay in the flat and continue to work the technique, along with hitting front squats, and core hard you will easily start hitting at least the same numbers you are in Oly shoes with in the month with a relative ease. [/quote]
What is it exactly you feel the Oly shoes are messing up? If I learn to ‘spread the floor’ with them on better like you say I do in flats, would that maybe be a best of both worlds scenario? [/quote]
No because one way or the other spreading the floor or not you are still going to get to a weight that is going to try and push you over. When this happens you are going to get pushed over even harder in Oly shoes it literally just how they are made. I really think you are just getting caught up in trying to look cool by wearing expensive shoes. Something along the lines of don’t $100 shoes just to have a 10 cent squat.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Here’s another comparison that might help. [/quote]
I appreciate you taking the time to do this man. I guess I’m confused though. The diagram seems to show the bar needs to be over the front/mid part of my foot, and I’ve alwaysss focused on having it over and pushing through me heels. Is that an issue?[/quote]
I’m hesitant to give advice and I wouldn’t sweat the pictures too much. You can’t see your feet or bar placement in the video (Plus the line is crooked). If I’m not mistaken you mention you use a kind of hybrid squat not exactly low bar correct? So the comparison might not be the best.
If I were you what I would take away from the pictures is that a) you’re still looking down (chest and eyes are down), which might be a part of the tipping forward feeling you’re experiencing. B) The weight doesn’t look to be over your center of gravity. Pic on the left shows the bar directly over the middle of the foot, but more importantly imho is that the weight is directly over the middle of the body. It’s distributed evenly. In your picture the weight looks pretty far out in front of you. I don’t know why that is, it’s just an observation.
Also, take another look at the Greg Nuckols video you posted. Right at about 45 sec he reverse. Notice how he doesn’t shoot backwards at all, he comes straight up. Watch your video around the 57 second mark. You move backwards instead of up. Just another observation.
Hey Spidey22, you’ve gotten a lot of great advice here and I’m not going to pile any more specifics on you, but rather urge you to keep things as simple as you can. Some general principles that have worked well for my squat include…
If it hurts when you are squatting, stop. Figure out how to make it not hurt.
If it hurts after you squat, stop. Figure out how to make it not hurt.
Squat with confidence and focus. Don’t get in the habit of failing too many reps. I’ve actually never failed a squat rep in my 1.5 year journey to 495 and beyond. I’m sure it will happen at some point…
Get as tight as you can. Head-to-toe. Big belly full of air. Brace yourself and then commit to the movement. Stay tight!
Maintain a spirit of continuous improvement. Always look for ways to improve.
My $0.02 is that you would be well-served to spend some time working at around 50% or so with no belt. Experiment with applying some of what has been shared here and find what feels good to you. Take a lot of film and make some notes. Learn to own the weight and find your squat style. Your gains won’t go anywhere during this time.
Then, once you find your groove, add some weight to the fucking bar and win.
I’m sure you will do outstanding!
[quote]lift206 wrote:
Really good stuff.
[/quote]
Ok cool. I’ve really never been able to point my elbows up, just always feels weird in general, but I think I’ll start doing more lower rep sets beltless and paused with everything, and that should help. I just started doing breathing squats during my warm-up, so hopefully that helps.
Thank you for all your advice, it’s much appreciated.
[quote]Reed wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]Reed wrote:
Take it how you like but, I personally feel you look much better in the flats. You are also spreading the floor in them better. I bet if you stay in the flat and continue to work the technique, along with hitting front squats, and core hard you will easily start hitting at least the same numbers you are in Oly shoes with in the month with a relative ease. [/quote]
What is it exactly you feel the Oly shoes are messing up? If I learn to ‘spread the floor’ with them on better like you say I do in flats, would that maybe be a best of both worlds scenario? [/quote]
No because one way or the other spreading the floor or not you are still going to get to a weight that is going to try and push you over. When this happens you are going to get pushed over even harder in Oly shoes it literally just how they are made. I really think you are just getting caught up in trying to look cool by wearing expensive shoes. Something along the lines of don’t $100 shoes just to have a 10 cent squat. [/quote]
lol dude I didn’t get these to look ‘cool’. They are giant ugly red shoes. I bench in a shitty old pair of adidas just because the grip allows me to have leg drive without sliding. I’m not against trying to use them, I’ve just seen that most (not all) successful raw lifters seem to Squat with them. it could be less about the heel, though, and just the fact Oly shoes are so ‘sturdy’. I’ve squatted in wrestling shoes and chucks, and both feel ‘flimsy’, which is probably more of an issue from me, not just flat vs heel.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Here’s another comparison that might help. [/quote]
I appreciate you taking the time to do this man. I guess I’m confused though. The diagram seems to show the bar needs to be over the front/mid part of my foot, and I’ve alwaysss focused on having it over and pushing through me heels. Is that an issue?[/quote]
I’m hesitant to give advice and I wouldn’t sweat the pictures too much. You can’t see your feet or bar placement in the video (Plus the line is crooked). If I’m not mistaken you mention you use a kind of hybrid squat not exactly low bar correct? So the comparison might not be the best.
If I were you what I would take away from the pictures is that a) you’re still looking down (chest and eyes are down), which might be a part of the tipping forward feeling you’re experiencing. B) The weight doesn’t look to be over your center of gravity. Pic on the left shows the bar directly over the middle of the foot, but more importantly imho is that the weight is directly over the middle of the body. It’s distributed evenly. In your picture the weight looks pretty far out in front of you. I don’t know why that is, it’s just an observation.
Also, take another look at the Greg Nuckols video you posted. Right at about 45 sec he reverse. Notice how he doesn’t shoot backwards at all, he comes straight up. Watch your video around the 57 second mark. You move backwards instead of up. Just another observation. [/quote]
Yeah that makes sense. I know I didn’t have this issue quite as much before I started trying to turn my feet more straight ahead. I actually had a better ‘looking’ (but weaker at the time) squat when I just let my feet turn out to 45 degrees (I tried to do that yesterday but of course now it feels weird lol). I’ve noticed Greg does that, and while mobility junkies seem to think that’s horrible, I think it may just be how I should Squat.
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Hey Spidey22, you’ve gotten a lot of great advice here and I’m not going to pile any more specifics on you, but rather urge you to keep things as simple as you can. Some general principles that have worked well for my squat include…
If it hurts when you are squatting, stop. Figure out how to make it not hurt.
If it hurts after you squat, stop. Figure out how to make it not hurt.
Squat with confidence and focus. Don’t get in the habit of failing too many reps. I’ve actually never failed a squat rep in my 1.5 year journey to 495 and beyond. I’m sure it will happen at some point…
Get as tight as you can. Head-to-toe. Big belly full of air. Brace yourself and then commit to the movement. Stay tight!
Maintain a spirit of continuous improvement. Always look for ways to improve.
My $0.02 is that you would be well-served to spend some time working at around 50% or so with no belt. Experiment with applying some of what has been shared here and find what feels good to you. Take a lot of film and make some notes. Learn to own the weight and find your squat style. Your gains won’t go anywhere during this time.
Then, once you find your groove, add some weight to the fucking bar and win.
I’m sure you will do outstanding![/quote]
Well it never ever hurts during or after I squat, minus the fact low bar leaves a mark on my back. So that’s a good sign.
This is the first rep I’ve failed in a longggg time. It’s actually why I posted, just because it was concerning enough to make me ask for help.
Staying tight sounds so simple, but I’m really fucking it up haha. Trying harder to get the hang of it.
I’ve actually been all about that ‘improvement’ mindset. I have small sheet of PR’s, reps and volume, and everyday for the last few months I just try and PR on SOMETHING, large or small, daily, and it’s honestly been some of my best progress in awhile.
I’m going to lower the weight and try more beltless, and I think paused work. Really for myself to find my strongest position and make it habitual.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Staying tight sounds so simple, but I’m really fucking it up haha. Trying harder to get the hang of it.
[/quote]
You’re not alone. I struggle with it too. I’m sure a lot do. I actually had a nice pump in my lats, upper back, and core after a max rep set of squats on Monday (with a paltry 95kg) for the first time probably ever. It was one of those light bulb moments for me. Hopefully you have one as well.
