Take this for what it is worth as I am not a great squatter but here we go.
You are loose. You are looking down from the second you unrack to the second you decend to the second you rerack the weight (if it got that far). This is causing your upper back to round making it pretty much impossible to pull your scapula back and allowing you to actually stay in postion. One of the reasons you are tipping forward immediately. I under stand that Mark Rippetoe this and that and I don’t care. There is a reason that 99% of the world record holder in the squat do not look down. Not saying stare at the roof but stop looking down especially on the unrack.
You are lose in your core. You are taking in air as you begin the desent. Maybe its just me but there is no way in hell I could get the proper core stability and tightness by doing that. Unrack, Step Back, Deep Breathe, Press into belt, then and only then break.
You are not spreading the floor it would appear your knees and hips pretty much never rotate out even slightly just straight ahead the hole time and then immediately knees cave.
You are in oly shoes and personally don’t think you need to be it is only adding even further to the problems above by tipping you forward even more.
Front Squat a lot more.
I didn’t read above comments so if this has been said I apologize.
[quote]Reed wrote:
Take this for what it is worth as I am not a great squatter but here we go.
You are loose. You are looking down from the second you unrack to the second you decend to the second you rerack the weight (if it got that far). This is causing your upper back to round making it pretty much impossible to pull your scapula back and allowing you to actually stay in postion. One of the reasons you are tipping forward immediately. I under stand that Mark Rippetoe this and that and I don’t care. There is a reason that 99% of the world record holder in the squat do not look down. Not saying stare at the roof but stop looking down especially on the unrack.
You are lose in your core. You are taking in air as you begin the desent. Maybe its just me but there is no way in hell I could get the proper core stability and tightness by doing that. Unrack, Step Back, Deep Breathe, Press into belt, then and only then break.
You are not spreading the floor it would appear your knees and hips pretty much never rotate out even slightly just straight ahead the hole time and then immediately knees cave.
You are in oly shoes and personally don’t think you need to be it is only adding even further to the problems above by tipping you forward even more.
Front Squat a lot more.
I didn’t read above comments so if this has been said I apologize.[/quote]
Thanks for chiming in reed
ok this is something I’m working on. I used to look straight up, and it would cause me to over arch my back. Sadly to combat this a developed a habit in the opposite direction. Also, I have tendency to stagger my stance when Squatting (pretty sure i have uneven leg lengths lol), and a lot of time I unrack and immediately look at my feet to see if their even
Hmm, i see what you mean. I’m getting a big breath of air, letting it out, then breathing again when I descend. I’ll be honest, bracing my core is hard, makes me feel like I’m going to vomit most times, but everyone has made it clear it’s a weakness with my form
I feel like I really ‘try’ to rotate the floor, but I feel I just don’t do the cue correctly. My knees only go out a very little, because when I used to aggressively force them out, there would be a huge recoil and they’d buckle horribly. So I thought maybe keeping them ‘closer’ to where they’d end up anyways would help a bit, but I guess not lol
I actually feel like I fall more forward without them. Otherwise my knees have to travel soooo far over my feet that I’m basically parallel with the ground just to hit depth.
[quote]halcj wrote:
To me, knees caving is a form problem to correct, not a physical / programming issue to be worked around. If someone isn’t able to squat properly without such faults, there is cause to focus on technique (with moderate, not light, weights).
If someone can’t do a proper snatch, should they try to shoulder raise / high pull the bar up instead? No, because that would not be the optimal method for lifting the most weight. They simply have to persevere and become a better lifter.
This isn’t even a major problem tbh, the squats look ok - there’s no need to narrow the stance just to stop knee cave; stance should be dictated by physical structure and injury history etc., not proficiency.[/quote]
I understand that and I’m not telling him to move his stance in only because he may not know how to open up his hips. I said that with the intention that he may be a stronger squatter with a narrow stance and to give that a try. I’m not going to tell everyone to squat wide just to squat wide or even squat narrow just to squat narrow. And even with narrow stance you still have to know how to spread the floor. I told him he had two options to try: squat narrow so his knees can track over his toes or squat wide and force his knees out so they can still track over his toes. Nowhere did I say to mask his problem because I didn’t assume it was a problem.
If someone is a stronger squatter with narrow stance, why force them to squat wide? Let him experiment for himself.
I Front Squat and HB Squat about as often as I do this lower bar position. The lower bar, wider stance is actually because narrower and high bar was causing me such issues. I fall forward with Oly style squats easily, I assume just because I’m so long femured, that I have so much ‘leg’ they don’t have anywhere to go with a narrower stance, almost like the problems in Squat I posted here are even worse. I switched bar position and stance width pretty much because I just could not figure out how to keep the bar over my heels/mid foot with an Oly Squat
My knees caving in has always been an issue. last training cycle, I REALLY worked on it, and it’s actually improved a ton if you can believe it, now slightly coming in on the ascent, where as they used to buckled like a newborn gazelle.
[/quote]
Whatever stance width you use, make sure your knees track over your toes. I saw your front squat video and your chest does cave in but it’s a max attempt so I can’t really tell how the majority of your training looks. But going off that, it looks like your back still isn’t tight which allows your hips to shoot back from the start. I’ve had this problem as well. If you do another training cycle with front squats, it might be worth it to do them without a belt so you aren’t relying on the belt to maintain position.
You’ll have to lighten the load a bit and really focus on keeping your back in a neutral position and keeping your hips under the bar (this is really important, think hips under bar the entire rep). By doing this you train your knees to stay in position while driving up. This will also allow the mid/upper back to be trained properly instead of failing and shifting the load to the lower back.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
2) Hmm, i see what you mean. I’m getting a big breath of air, letting it out, then breathing again when I descend. I’ll be honest, bracing my core is hard, makes me feel like I’m going to vomit most times, but everyone has made it clear it’s a weakness with my form
[/quote]
Well, I feel like I’m going to shit myself every time I brace my core.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
2) Hmm, i see what you mean. I’m getting a big breath of air, letting it out, then breathing again when I descend. I’ll be honest, bracing my core is hard, makes me feel like I’m going to vomit most times, but everyone has made it clear it’s a weakness with my form
[/quote]
Well, I feel like I’m going to shit myself every time I brace my core.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Agree with Reed on the breathing. Get your air before you start the descent.
If you vomit, so be it. These things happen.
Consider looking up, or at least forward. My hips tend to shoot up first if I squat while looking down.[/quote]
Ok, so I take a big breath on my unrack, should I be holding that to Squat, or take a big breath, unrack and walkout, then take ANOTHER large breath before I start my descent?
I really appreciate everyone’s input so far. much more advice and contribution than I expected.
I read a lot of Greg Nuckols, and he has a good article on the the Squat that’s ‘right for you’ (google it if you’d like, it’s very good). He basically says long femured individuals should either squat like him here:
“If you can get good abduction at your hips (push your knees way out to the side), doing so ?shortens? your femurs, giving you less distance you have to compensate for with forward lean. If this is you, flat soles, either a high or low bar position, and a moderate to wide stance will allow you to stay upright and engage your quads, hamstrings, and glutes in the movement better.”
Or like Tom Platz kind of : “If you can?t abduct at the hip that well, then your best bet is getting an Olympic shoe with a raised heel, sticking with high bar squats and a close to moderate stance width, and letting your knees track forward (still trying to keep your weight on your heel or at midfoot) to allow you to stay more upright with the aim of, again, countering the propensity of your spinal erectors to bear the brunt of the load.”
So thoughts on this? I guess I’m confused as it seems i’m doing some shitty combination of these two styles, and people have suggested I go to each end of the spectrum. So I guess I’m not sure which of these is going to with? Or if either of these are optimal.
I don’t pay attention to my breath on the unrack… you can do whatever works for you there.
I unrack, walk the weight out, and once I’m still and ready to descend, I get my air. That’s basically my last cue before I initiate the movement, as I don’t want to hold my breath longer than I need to. I hold my breath through the entire squat, and press against my belt as hard as possible for tightness.
Side note: if anything I ever say contradicts what Reed says about the squat, defer to him.
Personally for me when walking out I set up exactly like I am in a mono. Get under get shoulders set then big air, brace core, step back, set feet, pause then rebreathe and rebrace. If I do not brace hard before unrackong I will cave my upper back immediately and the. Can’t get it back after I walk back. I also have to look forward and go completely off feel when I walk out. If I look down ever at any time during the squat I immediately will round and lose my position.
If you can unrack and stay tight and squat in one breathe go for it. Me personally if I unrack and try to squat all in one breath I will pass out. I usually pass out anyways lol but I prefer to do it after I squat rather than just before.
Personally for me when walking out I set up exactly like I am in a mono. Get under get shoulders set then big air, brace core, step back, set feet, pause then rebreathe and rebrace. If I do not brace hard before unrackong I will cave my upper back immediately and the. Can’t get it back after I walk back. I also have to look forward and go completely off feel when I walk out. If I look down ever at any time during the squat I immediately will round and lose my position.
If you can unrack and stay tight and squat in one breathe go for it. Me personally if I unrack and try to squat all in one breath I will pass out. I usually pass out anyways lol but I prefer to do it after I squat rather than just before.
[quote]cparker wrote:
On the topic of glutes, try some glute activation drills. Im usually double skeptical of the faddish kind of things but I think theyve helped me with my squat and DL a little the past few months.[/quote]
I’ll second this. I started doing some glute activation as part of my dynamic warmup for deadlift and believe it has helped. I feel my form is better and lifts are more consistent, also notable less doms in low back and now more doms in hams/glutes.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
So thoughts on this? I guess I’m confused as it seems i’m doing some shitty combination of these two styles, and people have suggested I go to each end of the spectrum. So I guess I’m not sure which of these is going to with? Or if either of these are optimal.
[/quote]
When you learn to brace your abs and tighten your entire back, it allows you to have proper body mechanics for any style squat regardless of whether it is most efficient for your body type.
It doesn’t make sense to choose a style until you have solved the problem of creating a rigid torso. Once you eliminate that variable, you can accurately assess which works better by doing a couple training cycles which each style. The reason why your hips shoot up regardless of whether you use wide, moderate or narrow stance is because of a lack of torso rigidity. Don’t worry about anything else at the moment except for solving this problem if you want to make consistent progress over the long term.
Once you solve this problem, you’ll also find that you’ll have slightly less of a tendency for your knees to cave in and it won’t take much work to fix it, if necessary. Having them cave in so much that your back angle changes is a problem. But again, this problem is related to what is stated above.
I thank ya’ll enough for all the advice. The movements in the videos will be added to my warm-ups Cparker, so thanks specifically for those.
Like I said, tomorrow I’ll get a video of a decent triple wearing flats.
The biggest issue, as lift206 explained really well, is keeping my torso rigid. I’ve pretty much watched every Chris Duffin video I could find today, especially on glute activation and core rigidness. I understand on expanding my stomach 360 degrees (abs, obliques, lower back), keeping my rib cage ‘down’ (something I HAVEN’T been doing), is there anything else to really keep in mind with that? Like changing my grip position or anything? Any videos or tips would be cool, as I feel I’ve been confusing a strong set-up when unracking the bar with being tight all the way through.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I thank ya’ll enough for all the advice. The movements in the videos will be added to my warm-ups Cparker, so thanks specifically for those.
Like I said, tomorrow I’ll get a video of a decent triple wearing flats.
The biggest issue, as lift206 explained really well, is keeping my torso rigid. I’ve pretty much watched every Chris Duffin video I could find today, especially on glute activation and core rigidness. I understand on expanding my stomach 360 degrees (abs, obliques, lower back), keeping my rib cage ‘down’ (something I HAVEN’T been doing), is there anything else to really keep in mind with that? Like changing my grip position or anything? Any videos or tips would be cool, as I feel I’ve been confusing a strong set-up when unracking the bar with being tight all the way through.
[/quote]
A strong set-up should help with keeping tight throughout a lift. Unrack the bar like you’re getting ready to do pin squats.
Doing hollow holds can help for learning to brace correctly. Your lower back should be flat on the ground and your shoulder blades should be slightly raised. You should feel tightness in your obliques. Do these until you can brace at will. You should experience the same thing when squatting but make sure you are only bracing and not crunching your abs, which will place your spine in flexion.
A movement that worked for me to practice torso rigidity is snatch grip RDLs. Use straps so you don’t have to focus on grip. Brace your core. Keep the bar close to your body by engaging your lats. Keep your chest up and tighten it (but don’t hyper extend) to keep your erector spinae tight. Finish with the glutes. Don’t use a belt until you have this down and can go heavy while still maintaining position. Don’t go low enough that you lose tension because ROM isn’t the goal here. When applying this to squats, the only difference really is that your hands are up - the same muscles should be tight.
Thank you so much lift206, I’ll begin to incorporate both those movements.
For Reed and the rest of you, here are some triples with 275 in Flat wrestling shoes vs my heeled Oly shoes. I did 4 sets, both sets with flats first, and then 2 sets with my oly shoes. Sadly the video from the sideview on the Oly sets (3rd set total) didn’t record for some reason, so I only have 3 of the sets.
My eye for this isn’t great, but they don’t look tremendously different. The flats felt like I was ‘falling over’ more and I felt a little worse overall. The Oly shoes in comparison I felt I was more upright and it was much easier to stay on my heels, at least it felt that way. But I’ll let ya’ll look and tell me what you think.
Also tried to really work on the abdominal bracing, but you can see by my last set I was exerting a lot of energy just staying tight. It’s definitely a different challenge, but I think with some work I can really learn to hold the pressure in better and stay tight all the way through.
