Squat Problem, Fatigue

Training
1

Hello, lately I’m getting really tired before I can finish my work sets on the squat. I uploaded a form check video for my squat when I finally hit 100kg (225 lbs) a little over a month ago here, I’ll post the link below.

Progress since then has not been as fast, I stalled on 105kg and 107kg. But then I went up to 110kg (245lbs) without any problems and managed to do 3-3-3 (of 5x3).

I tried the same weight the next workout and managed to do 4 reps, then 2 reps and 1 on the last rep.

What is strange is that on this workout my knee started to buckle inwards just out of the blue. I decided to do a 10% deload to correct my form. 100kg went fine, knee buckled in on the last rep on the last set.

102 went fine and on 105kg my knee started to buckle in again on the way up. I decided to shoot a video of my form that day and I’m uploading it here. From what I can tell it just looks like I’m going to heavy on the weights, even tho I managed to squat 110 for 3x3 reps not long ago.

Do anyone know what could be the cause of this? Have I lost strenght?

Despite not being able to progress on my squats all my other lifts are progressing (SL5x5)

Here is the link to my previous form check for the squat: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_beginner/squat_form_check_82

2

Sounds like you might not be eating enough.

3

I’d bring your elbows more directly underneath the bar; you seem to be rounding forward at your upper back in this video, unlike the last one. Focus on keep your chest up.

I also think you’re going a bit too heavy for you. I’d drop back about 20% from where you are right now and work back up. It’ll feel light, and that’s fine. Just use it as an opportunity to keep everything tight and crisp and drill that in. Try to explode out of the hole, and keep your back a single solid unit.

Likewise, if you’re not doing a few lighter sets to warm up, I’d start doing that and make sure each of those are crisp and fast.

It looks to me that your back is just a little weak right now. Since you’re doing StrongLifts, you should be getting some decent upper back work with the Pendlay Rows. How heavy have you been able to go on those?

Another final tip. Before you start into your work sets, put an extra 20-50lbs on the bar, walk out with it, and just hold it for 5-10 seconds. Repeat a few times if you want. This should make your work sets feel much lighter, as well as just getting your back (and mind) used to holding heavier weights.

Best of luck.

4

[quote]pcdude wrote:
Sounds like you might not be eating enough.[/quote]

Right, this too probably.

5

I also made a thread here about a diet, turns out I wasn’t eating enough but now I have been eating properly for a little over a week. With the help from a forum member named Mertdawg we came to the conclusion that I should eat the following:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

  1. Gradually decrease bodyfat to 12-14% level while adding a little muscle:
    Baseline: 2350 cals; 140 grams protein; 140 grams carbs
    Training day: 2650 cals; 170 grams protein; 190 grams carbs

  2. Gaining the most muscle while maintaining bodyfat
    Baseline: 2650 cals; 170 grams protein; 190 grams carbs
    Training: 2950 cals; 200 grams protein; 240 grams carbs
    [/quote]

LoRez,

On the pendlay row my max is 72,5kg (160 lbs)

Just out of curiosity, why am I suddenly weak when I was able to squat 110kg just 1,5 weeks earlier?

For my warm-ups I start with the empty bar (20kg), then 40,50,60,70,80,90,100. I had a look at the stronglifts page and they recommended 6 warm up sets for my weight.

6

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I also think you’re going a bit too heavy for you. I’d drop back about 20% from where you are right now and work back up. It’ll feel light, and that’s fine. Just use it as an opportunity to keep everything tight and crisp and drill that in. Try to explode out of the hole, and keep your back a single solid unit.
[/quote]

Echoing LoRez, if your diet is in check you may just need a reset. At 5x5 3 times per week it’s entirely possible you have some residual fatigue built up from several workouts. Dropping the weight 10-20% would allow this to dissipate without losing any gains.

A reset would also provide an opportunity to dial in your form. When you address the bar just think to yourself “Big chest. Shoulders back.”

7

Alright, I have been doing 5x5/3x5 over 4 months straight. I’ll deload to 85kg and work my way back up.

Any tips for exploding out of the hole? I’ve been told to think of this before but I’m not sure on how to do it, I know I shouldn’t “bounce”. While on a deload I could just try and get up faster.

8

Yes, when you deload you can focus more on bar speed. Also, take a big, deep breath, hold it, and stay tight all the way down to help you explode out of the hole.

9

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’d bring your elbows more directly underneath the bar; you seem to be rounding forward at your upper back in this video, unlike the last one. Focus on keep your chest up.

I also think you’re going a bit too heavy for you. I’d drop back about 20% from where you are right now and work back up. It’ll feel light, and that’s fine. Just use it as an opportunity to keep everything tight and crisp and drill that in. Try to explode out of the hole, and keep your back a single solid unit.

Likewise, if you’re not doing a few lighter sets to warm up, I’d start doing that and make sure each of those are crisp and fast.

It looks to me that your back is just a little weak right now. Since you’re doing StrongLifts, you should be getting some decent upper back work with the Pendlay Rows. How heavy have you been able to go on those?

Another final tip. Before you start into your work sets, put an extra 20-50lbs on the bar, walk out with it, and just hold it for 5-10 seconds. Repeat a few times if you want. This should make your work sets feel much lighter, as well as just getting your back (and mind) used to holding heavier weights.

Best of luck.[/quote]

OP is performing a low bar squat. If his elbows were to be beneath the bar, his shoulders would collapse. His elbows are great. His scapulae is pinched and elbows in tight and flared behind him, the way it should be. His chest can’t get any higher than it is. As a matter of fact, if his chest went any higher, he’d fall backwards. What you haven’t taken into consideration is that OP is a tall motherfucker, if you can’t tell from how he squats. So unless he switches to a high bar squat, it’s gonna look like he’s flirting with a good morning.
NOTE* OP’s hips do come up a fraction of a second earlier than it should.

What the OP should do is tuck his chin in. Meaning force a double chin on yourself. For the knock knees, add accessory work to give focus to the abductors. The weight distribution should lie on the outer skirts of his foot, with the heel firmly planted. Whereas OP is currently laying the weight more towards the medial part of the foot, and the balls of his feet. Drop the weight and focus on pushing the knees outward as you descend AND ascend until you reach the pinnacle. If you can find a resistance band, wrap it right outside your knees and work on firing your abductors as you squat.

If you’re getting too tired to finish the sets, it’s perhaps because it is simply a new program. Or you can try using Thib’s neuro charge warmups to adequately set off the CNS before your first working set. And double checking your nutrition wouldn’t hurt either.
Potentation to charge your CNS is great, but it is unnecessary to fix your squat ATM. Save it for when your squat form is in check and you’re warming up for that new PR.

10

Sometimes I think you just like to be contrary for the sake of being contrary.

His upper back is rounding forward a bit. Given that he’s already building a nice solid base with his upper back, he just needs to rotate it upwards a bit. So… cueing “get your elbows more under the bar” and “chest up” are two approaches. One or the other or both should help him with that rounding. Obviously his elbows won’t actually be directly under the bar given his bar position.

As far as the “potentiation to charge his CNS”, if you’re referring to my suggestion of overloaded walkouts… that’s actually not the reason I suggested them. Yeah, it might accomplish that too… but mostly it’s about “feeling” what being under and moving under a heavier weight is like. Most of the benefit is psychological, but it will also help address weak links in his back in a highly specific manner, that otherwise wouldn’t be accomplished by lighter weights. Even if it doesn’t do much to help strengthen those (and in my experience, it should), it’ll definitely make it very clear where they are.

11

Watching your video, my concern right off the bat is that you’re going to injure yourself with that form. If you’re experiencing fatigue and dropping in strength that could be from a number of different things, specifically (as others mentioned) not eating enough or something as simple as hitting a plateau, which we all do sooner or later. Personally, when I’ve hit that point in the past it usually meant (for me) to drop the volume, or try a different routine. I notice that when I did 5 sets, I plateaued very quickly, and learned through trial and error that I made better gains doing 3 sets of 5 as opposed to 5 sets of 5.

12

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Sometimes I think you just like to be contrary for the sake of being contrary.

His upper back is rounding forward a bit. Given that he’s already building a nice solid base with his upper back, he just needs to rotate it upwards a bit. So… cueing “get your elbows more under the bar” and “chest up” are two approaches. One or the other or both should help him with that rounding. Obviously his elbows won’t actually be directly under the bar given his bar position.

As far as the “potentiation to charge his CNS”, if you’re referring to my suggestion of overloaded walkouts… that’s actually not the reason I suggested them. Yeah, it might accomplish that too… but mostly it’s about “feeling” what being under and moving under a heavier weight is like. Most of the benefit is psychological, but it will also help address weak links in his back in a highly specific manner, that otherwise wouldn’t be accomplished by lighter weights. Even if it doesn’t do much to help strengthen those (and in my experience, it should), it’ll definitely make it very clear where they are.[/quote]

The illusion you see of his upper back rounding is because he is exaggerating scapular retraction… which is perfect… and also because of his chin protruding too far forward… not because is chest isn’t high enough. Of course, front and side view of the squat would help further…

You were suggesting the OP try things that would overtly corrupt his squat. Hence, the contrary.

13

For a sample of Jarvans credibility read my German volume training thread.

OK, if you are really fatigued squatting. JUST STOP! It is absolutely not worth a spinal injury because you wanted to “push yourself”. Take a step back and figure out what is wrong. Fix this weakness BEFORE advancing. It is not worth ruining a disc!!! Fuck anybody who tells you otherwise. Train smart. Take a short break and strategize.

I am an example of somebody who did not have any training help and because I pushed through an injury I now have sciatica at 24 yo. If your lower back is fatiguing, back off on squats and do hyper extensions if your knees are wobbly, try a different stance or form. I found the box squat to be an extremely easy to learn and effective alternative. If your upper back is sore, build up your traps. These are just examples.

14

you’re right, lets make sure we take notes from someone who induced sciatica nerve pain @24 years old

15

I’d rather teach a new lifter to learn from my mistakes then have the horrible first start I did.

16

Thought I should update the thread:

I’ve deloaded to 80kg and started from there on the squats, focusing on keeping the weight on the outside/heel of the feet.

I didn’t record anything but I tried tucking my elbows in more and I felt that if I continue to do that I’ll hurt my wrists, on the previous video I had a friend film for me at a higher angle, which might make it look like my elbows are more tucked in. But comparing both videos my upper back is rounded in the top position, but as I descend it’s straight and elbows aligned with my torso (more or less).

I also tried tucking my chin in, I’ve tried this before and I didn’t feel any different other than having one more thing to focus at. Will doing this benefit me in some way? Currently I’m focusing my view on a single spot having my head tilted upwards in the bottom position.

Here’s what I will be doing during my deload period:

I will experiment some more with tucking my chin in. Aswell as moving the elbows closer underneath the bar (not right underneath but I expect to be able to move them in maybe 1-2cm. However I believe just keeping my chest more upright in the top position will fix this. And lastly keeping the weight on the outside and heel of the foot.

17

Thanks for the update

The purpose of tucking the chin is to maintain a neutral spine. Simply put, a straight spinal cord ( S curve). There’s a ton of squatters out there that really look up at the lights on the concentric portion, but I personally prefer and believe that keeping the spine neutral throughout the cervical spine is important.

How are you doing on pushing the knees out as you drive up?
Video update would be cool. I’d like to see if you’re actually tucking in the chin and not just looking down.

18

Neutral spine sounds lika a good Idea!

No problems pushing the knees out so far, I’ll see if I can get a video today. Not sure if a front view will work because I’m squatting pretty close to a wall, so either I film my feet or the face in the top position. I’ll try and see if a frontal view will work. I’ll get a back and side angle for you.

19

  1. Pick a spot about 4-5’ in front of you on the floor to stare at. I mean STARE at it during the entire lift. This will keep your head down and chin tucked.

  2. Your upper body is fine. That’s a lowbar squat and it’s fine. Always think “elbows up” though to keep tight. Always think “stay tight” everywhere.

  3. I can see those knees caving a bit. You have gotten the right advice here to push the knees out. Thinking about pushing yourself up through the side of your foot is a good way to get this fixed. And you will notice that when you get tired, your external leg muscles will be where you feel the shakes/tired. That’s because they are weak since you weren’t focusing on shoving and keeping the knees out. So a deload along with refocussing on this will be helpful, if slow.

  4. Eat more. You don’t look that big.

20

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
Thanks for the update

The purpose of tucking the chin is to maintain a neutral spine. Simply put, a straight spinal cord ( S curve). There’s a ton of squatters out there that really look up at the lights on the concentric portion, but I personally prefer and believe that keeping the spine neutral throughout the cervical spine is important.

How are you doing on pushing the knees out as you drive up?
Video update would be cool. I’d like to see if you’re actually tucking in the chin and not just looking down.

[/quote]

I didn’t have any problems with the knees today. However I found myself not focusing on keeping the weight on the outside/heel of my foot. Except for tucking my chin I squatted out of habit.

I’ve uploaded a video, i tried to tuck the chin in. I hope you can see if I’m doing alright, this is probably something I have to practice. I couldn’t get a front view unfortunately but I got a rear and side view for you!

[quote]SevenDragons wrote:

  1. Pick a spot about 4-5’ in front of you on the floor to stare at. I mean STARE at it during the entire lift. This will keep your head down and chin tucked.

  2. Your upper body is fine. That’s a lowbar squat and it’s fine. Always think “elbows up” though to keep tight. Always think “stay tight” everywhere.

  3. I can see those knees caving a bit. You have gotten the right advice here to push the knees out. Thinking about pushing yourself up through the side of your foot is a good way to get this fixed. And you will notice that when you get tired, your external leg muscles will be where you feel the shakes/tired. That’s because they are weak since you weren’t focusing on shoving and keeping the knees out. So a deload along with refocusing on this will be helpful, if slow.

  4. Eat more. You don’t look that big.

[/quote]

  1. Some time ago I tried staring at the point which the wall meets the floor, this didn’t feel natural to me back then. If this is required in order to keep my chin tucked I can try doing this again, or staring at another point. Right now I’m staring at the bottom of the poster in front of the rack, this could be a little to high in the bottom position.

You’re saying elbows up and other people in this thread say elbows down, which one is it? When I was new to squatting it was nice to move them up to create that shelf but now that I have more muscle on the back I don’t have to keep them as high.

Yes I’m definitely going to focus on that, I’m quoting myself from the reply to Jarvan: “I didn’t have any problems with the knees today. However I found myself not focusing on keeping the weight on the outside/heel of my foot”

The next time I go to the gym I’m going to focus on this, since I’m on a deload this is the perfect time to practice in new things!

I’ve upped my caloric intake to appropriate levels, I’m trying to slide down to around 13-14% BF slowly leaving me at ~2650 cals on training days and ~2350 on resting days.

I’m not trying to get huge, I currently weigh 85kg and I’m about 185cm tall.