Oh and for what it’s worth that aha moment was at least 3 years in the making. A year of messing with foot placement, learning to sit back not down, bar placement, etc… Bracing is a big issue for me personally, I lose my air if I’m not very conscious of it.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Staying tight sounds so simple, but I’m really fucking it up haha. Trying harder to get the hang of it.
[/quote]
You’re not alone. I struggle with it too. I’m sure a lot do. I actually had a nice pump in my lats, upper back, and core after a max rep set of squats on Monday (with a paltry 95kg) for the first time probably ever. It was one of those light bulb moments for me. Hopefully you have one as well. [/quote]
It’s definitely satisfying when you figure it out. It took me a long time to figure it out as well. The worst part is not knowing you don’t know. When you get to knowing you don’t know, it’s frustrating but you make progress over time and hopefully get there. Some are lucky to not know that they know.
Spidey22- To break the movement down further to a basic level, you can learn to hip thrust with a rigid torso by doing a bench glute bridge. Do this at the beginning of the workout with just bodyweight or light weights on your abs to practice the movement before doing other lifts. Keep your chest, erectors, lats and abs braced. Pack your neck and look straight or down to make sure your torso remains tight. Contract the glutes at the top. All squat and deadlift variations are just a combination of hip thrusting and hinging.
Spidey-
I’m just one more voice in the crowd, but here goes.
It looks to me like your hips are the “weak link” in your squat. The knees caving in, and the forward lean are just the technique your body has developed to “cover” for your hips, or to “take them out” of the squat motion.
All the issues with looking down, different shoes, turning feet out, trouble with bracing, staggered foot stance, go back to the hip strength imbalance.
cparker and bardedwire mentioned the activating the glutes. This is great advice, and Clamshells are really effective for this. But you also have to have the hips and lower abs working together correctly to effectively use the glutes. You mentioned you don’t train abs directly. Try some “Landmine Abs.” Stick one end of your barbell in the corner or the garage, grab the other end and rotate it side to side in front of you. Keep your core braced, and your spine neutral. Think about your head position. Work your abs, and train your body move differently. You can do these landmines standing, kneeling, or half kneeling to challenge your hip stability. Alternate sets of clamshells with sets of landmines to really activate your hips.
Try hip hikes alternated with hanging knee raises, one leg at a time. You’ve got to get those hips going, and really screw your feet into the ground.
I agree with Reed about the shoes. You do a much better of of spreading the floor in the flat soles. Look how much better you do, forcing the knees out in the flat shoes. Keep this up, try to almost rotate your knees to the sides to “open up” so you can drop down between your legs, instead of bending over on top of them. Lunges and spread-eagle situps can help with this.
Use assistance exercises to build up the strength of your hips glutes and hamstrings. Like others have suggested, I would drop the squat weights a little and really focus on using weights you can move with perfect technique.
You’ve already shown progress from video to video. You’re already trying to get the knees out, and doing a better job of bracing your core. Keep up the great work! Build up the lacking muscles with direct exercises while you practice perfect squats with more challenging weights. As your hip strength improves, your squatting and bracing technique will improve. As your squatting and bracing technique get better, squatting will work your hips and core more effectively, making them stronger. Everything will get better.
[quote]lift206 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Staying tight sounds so simple, but I’m really fucking it up haha. Trying harder to get the hang of it.
[/quote]
You’re not alone. I struggle with it too. I’m sure a lot do. I actually had a nice pump in my lats, upper back, and core after a max rep set of squats on Monday (with a paltry 95kg) for the first time probably ever. It was one of those light bulb moments for me. Hopefully you have one as well. [/quote]
It’s definitely satisfying when you figure it out. It took me a long time to figure it out as well. The worst part is not knowing you don’t know. When you get to knowing you don’t know, it’s frustrating but you make progress over time and hopefully get there. Some are lucky to not know that they know.
Spidey22- To break the movement down further to a basic level, you can learn to hip thrust with a rigid torso by doing a bench glute bridge. Do this at the beginning of the workout with just bodyweight or light weights on your abs to practice the movement before doing other lifts. Keep your chest, erectors, lats and abs braced. Pack your neck and look straight or down to make sure your torso remains tight. Contract the glutes at the top. All squat and deadlift variations are just a combination of hip thrusting and hinging.[/quote]
I’ll try to do these as a warm-up as well. I did a variation of hollow holds (legs were straight but like a 45 degree angle) and that genuinely was the first time I’ve probably braced properly, those were a great suggestion. Going to start doing them PWO for a few rounds, maybe some quick ones as a warm-up for squats too, as a way to know what feeling I’m going for.
FlatsFarmer: Thanks for stopping by, the more advice the better.
I’ll try some of the hip work. I mean I ‘warm up’ my hips with lots of circles, I do some goblet squats with bands around my knees, etc, but I may just be getting warm, not activating much.
I tried the hollow holds today, really helped a lot with learning to get the feeling for bracing. I think I’ll start doing some of the exercises you suggested as well for some kind of ‘ab’ work. I’m also thinking of replacing banded leg curls with natural GHR’s, I think they could help as well.
The shoes thing is weird to me. I loved how much my Oly shoes helped my Squat now, and for a long time they helped with preventing ‘butt wink’ for me. But now looking at that video from the side, it seems i’ve remedied that even in flats. I may need to try a different pair of flats though, something that’s not as flimsy as my wrestling shoes. They are fine for Sumo but something about Squatting in them just felt lousy. May try my Adidas high tops for that, worked for the old time guys like Coan.
I honestly don’t do much assistance work. I’ve really just been doing LB, HB, and Front Squats, along with SLDLs and Sumo for my lower body, and just varying pausing and belted/beltless work to keep it different. I think I may just start not only being more aware of the cues you all told me, but work harder on opening my hips, activating the glutes, and basically make all my Squats with a weight I can keep good form with, and do EVERYTHING beltless and maybe paused for awhile.
Thanks on the reassurance as well. I’m kind of bummed, because so far this style of lifting I’ve been doing is my first non ‘set’ program, and I’ve been making a ton of progress on it while being in the middle of a diet (i know I’m already too skinny for my height, that’s neither here nor there lol), so kind of sucks that even though I’ve added a lot of weight to the bar for reps, I kind of have to take a step back. But I guess it’s all apart of the process.
Don’t get discouraged! You’ve made great strides in a very short time! You really seem to understand whats going on with your core/bracing now.
Like you said yourself, it’s easy to just kinda “move around” and miss the intention of the exercise you are doing. Just going through the motions or whatever.
But now, with the hollow holds you can “feel” whats going on, and what you are trying to accomplish. You can be aware of the position that you are trying to maintain. There is nothing super special about the exercises I mentioned, they are just ones that helped me “feel” and really understand what my hips were supposed to be doing. Try a bunch, use the ones that work, dump the ones that don’t.
And this is all a part of the process. Like you said, a slight step back, but one that will lead to even bigger lifts in the future. You got good at adding weight to the bar, which was your primary objective in training. Building a prettier squat was on the back burner. Now, the pretty squat will be the goal, and adding weight to the bar will secondary.
Regarding assistance lifts;
Using the big compound lifts work your whole body, but they don’t work the whole body evenly. The taller and leaner you are the more imbalanced the development will be (my opinion). The assistance exercises allow you to “zero in” on the weakest areas, the ones your body tries to take out of the compound moves.
While you are perfecting your squat technique with lower weights you can still push the lunges, RDL’s, 1 arm farmer’s walks, calf raises, step ups or whatever assistance moves help you, so you still get to have a little fun.
And your Heavy Single before rep work idea is pretty widely used and accepted, so you’re on the right track in your programming. Maybe you could try some kind of jumps or something to fire up your CNS before you squat.
You’ll be fine. You’ll be hitting some beltless PRs in a month or two and then hitting your previous belted PR with solid form shortly after. Good luck and keep us updated!
Thanks for the lengthy response FlatsFarmer, it helps a lot with tweaking my perspective. And lift206 I’ll bump this thread in a month or so, no need to hog the front page with all my frequent squatting sessions lol.
Here’s a link to my log, and any of ya’ll that helped me are free to stop by and provide more input. I’m already implementing the suggestions, and because I basically do a Squat variation every other day, there will be a ton of updates on progress. So please, stop by and let me know if I’m fixing the issues or misunderstanding them lol. Thanks again everyone.
Try setting the bar positioning with the j-hooks a little lower, it may help with getting tighter at the start-up.
I used to work in the squat with people roughly my height/slightly taller, and they would generally set the j-hooks one level harder than I normally do. I simply couldn’t get the bar tighter/really pull myself onto the bar as much as I want to, and this made it feel weak. It’s why I only ever did warm-ups while working in, and never work-in with people anymore.
I have the bar set up at slightly below sternum level with the power rack at the gym I currently go to. Those other people would set it above their nipples.
Hey, man, good to see you are still lifting. I still am, and hitting PR’s, but I haven’t felt like keeping a log on here. Anyway, here are my views on your squat. Your hips are too weak, and so your knees are extending really quickly since you are trying to rely on your quads, then once they are basically down extended your hips are stuck by themselves and can’t do the job.
I recommend hitting the crap out of your posterior chain (SLDL’s, good mornings, whatever are your bread and butter assistance exercises for this, and do a lot of them every time you squat or deadlift), and also to do some reverse band squats. I had that same issue, and I had found reverse band squats force me to not semi-goodmorning it.
That’s because it is lighter at the bottom so you can get momentum, but still very heavy at the top so you need to be in a good position to do that. With the increased weight from it too I found I would consciously try to not to good mornings it because I was worried I would dump it on my neck.
edit: Or just listen to the bigger guys here, I am not the strongest or biggest, I just do well for myself and outlift you by a decent bit on the squat and bench so I try to help you out when I can.
[quote]magick wrote:
Try setting the bar positioning with the j-hooks a little lower, it may help with getting tighter at the start-up.
I used to work in the squat with people roughly my height/slightly taller, and they would generally set the j-hooks one level harder than I normally do. I simply couldn’t get the bar tighter/really pull myself onto the bar as much as I want to, and this made it feel weak. It’s why I only ever did warm-ups while working in, and never work-in with people anymore.
I have the bar set up at slightly below sternum level with the power rack at the gym I currently go to. Those other people would set it above their nipples.[/quote]
I’ve actually started doing this, and it seems to put me at better starting position. Obviously doesn’t ‘fix’ my problem, but helps
[quote]Destrength wrote:
Hey, man, good to see you are still lifting. I still am, and hitting PR’s, but I haven’t felt like keeping a log on here. Anyway, here are my views on your squat. Your hips are too weak, and so your knees are extending really quickly since you are trying to rely on your quads, then once they are basically down extended your hips are stuck by themselves and can’t do the job.
I recommend hitting the crap out of your posterior chain (SLDL’s, good mornings, whatever are your bread and butter assistance exercises for this, and do a lot of them every time you squat or deadlift), and also to do some reverse band squats. I had that same issue, and I had found reverse band squats force me to not semi-goodmorning it.
That’s because it is lighter at the bottom so you can get momentum, but still very heavy at the top so you need to be in a good position to do that. With the increased weight from it too I found I would consciously try to not to good mornings it because I was worried I would dump it on my neck.
edit: Or just listen to the bigger guys here, I am not the strongest or biggest, I just do well for myself and outlift you by a decent bit on the squat and bench so I try to help you out when I can. [/quote]
Thanks. Hip wise, I’m obviously pulling Sumo which helps, but I think I may start doing some Sumo rack or mat pulls as well (Dan Green says this helps tremendously with hip strength), along with SLDL’s and Snatch Grip RDL’s.
I actually had a similar idea to the reverse band Squat over in my thread, but instead using some chains. So similar concept, overloading at the top. I also considered just draping a chain or two around my neck for paused Squats. Chris Duffin suggests this for replicating a safety squat bar, as you’ll be forced to keep upright, so may go that direction.
So bumping this thread with updates, good or bad, like I said. I haven’t worn a belt for squats since last time I posted here. I’ve concentrated on bracing, my hip strength (Sumo pulls and mat pulls have increased a lot), starting with my torso a bit more horizontal so I’m not falling forward, and (trying) to keep my hips closer to the bar.
Honestly I’m not any stronger I don’t think lol. If anything I’ve gotten weaker. I have been dieting, losing about 13 lbs since I first posted this thread, but yeah, I tried working up too something heavier this week and it seems what I’m doing isn’t paying off really.
Worse of all I’m not even hitting depth, which used to be the one thing I did well. Pretty disappointing, because I just feel I’ve been lifting for wayyy to long to not have hit a 405 Squat yet and it’s just kind of pathetic I’m not getting the hang of things. But yeah, this is progress so far. I do think I’m doing a few things better, but still fucking a lot up
Depth looked fine to me Spidey22. First vid is definitely parallel and your second looked good as well.
Why were you dieting down if you want to squat 405?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: cut the variations and squat! Use a belt (not too tight, but something to force your abs against), stick with a simple ramp to moderate / heavy set or few sets of 1-4 reps plus lighter back-offs (2-8 reps, occasionally more), 1-3 days a week.
The only other things you should be doing for your squat are abs / back assistance, eating well (err on the side of eating more + doing more rather than the opposite, whether gaining or losing weight), and some NON-BARBELL leg / posterior chain / conditioning work - this would include your favorite sled, reverse hyper, loaded carry, or machine exercise varieties as you see fit.
Reduce / eliminate front squatting and (another thing I’ve said before, sorry!) - widen your stance! You’re clearly putting a lot of effort into this; don’t waste it on less efficient lifts and “goal confusion”. I know you’ve got it if you focus on these basics!
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Depth looked fine to me Spidey22. First vid is definitely parallel and your second looked good as well.
Why were you dieting down if you want to squat 405? [/quote]
I guess because my goals aren’t strictly PL’ing. I pretty much try to lift my main lifts like PL’er, then BB’ing work after. Honestly that’s what most good raw PL’ers seem to do anyways, but yeah I care about how I look too, and I was kind of fat, and for better or for worse I feel like shit when I’m fat. Plus plenty of folks squat more than 405 weighing sub-200, so I can’t really use it as an excuse.
I know those are conflicting goals to some, but I don’t think so really. Plus my Deadlift and Bench have been moving along steadily during the diet. But I know what you’re saying, I didn’t expect to hit it during this diet, moreso just a comment on ‘FML still chasing the 400 Bench mark’.
[quote]halcj wrote:
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: cut the variations and squat! Use a belt (not too tight, but something to force your abs against), stick with a simple ramp to moderate / heavy set or few sets of 1-4 reps plus lighter back-offs (2-8 reps, occasionally more), 1-3 days a week.
The only other things you should be doing for your squat are abs / back assistance, eating well (err on the side of eating more + doing more rather than the opposite, whether gaining or losing weight), and some NON-BARBELL leg / posterior chain / conditioning work - this would include your favorite sled, reverse hyper, loaded carry, or machine exercise varieties as you see fit.
Reduce / eliminate front squatting and (another thing I’ve said before, sorry!) - widen your stance! You’re clearly putting a lot of effort into this; don’t waste it on less efficient lifts and “goal confusion”. I know you’ve got it if you focus on these basics![/quote]
Haha so I really tried to widen my stance, but idk, the knee caving got wayyy worse. Now, turning my feet out, kind of making it artificially wider helped, but I even narrowed my Sumo a bit and that’s helped a ton too.
The non-BB work will be an issue, as I lift in my garage with limited equipment. I will say I do think my form was better when I used to Leg Press after almost every squat session, and Quads were a little stronger, so I know what you’re saying. I honestly was thinking of just finding something in the middle, just mid-bar, moderate stance, feet turned out like 30 degrees, and just try that instead of ‘wide low bar’ or ‘narrow high bar’.
Strengthen your quads. Strong quads will help you stay upright; you can see this when wearing wraps.
Increase your squat volume. Maybe run something like Brad Gillinghams 5x5 squat program? There’s a program calculator here: http://www.jackalsgym.com/progcalc.aspx Note that the combo box does have items in it, they’re just not visible until you select an item.
I was hoping the front squats would help you learn to keep a tight upper back since that’s your main weakness but I know you had some trouble with that. I do agree with halcj in sticking with the comp squat because getting better at alternate movements doesn’t guarantee an improvement in the comp lift. Alternate movements can be useful in teaching how muscles should feel and function but aren’t very useful if not done properly.
I think your setup still has room for improvement. You’ve been focusing on ab/lat bracing and it’s good you made progress on that but the missing piece is keeping your upper back tight. It’s a cascading effect since your upper back caves, placing too much stress on your abs and causing your lower back to momentarily lose tension, which then causes your hips to shoot back so that your hams can regain tension. By the time your hams are loaded, you’re already in a shitty position. This happened to me too when I had trouble getting my upper back tight. Move your grip in and play around with it until you get to a point where you can focus on the cue: chest up, lats down. You should feel a lot of tension in your chest, lats and upper back. Your elbows don’t have to be straight down, just in the direction that creates the most lat tension while your chest is up.
For accessory work, I would recommend seated good mornings or hyper extensions. I would do the seated good mornings with a rounded upper back while bracing my core and really focus on thoracic extension.
