Soreness in Legs Hinders Flexibility Training

Training
1

I take the Korean martial art called Hapkido, which includes a myriad number of Taekwondo-like kicks. I’ve read all of Tom Kurz’s sources online, books, and dvd’s with regard to stretching properly and he has always said that it is a bad idea to stretch sore muscles, fascia and tendons because you end up delaying the recovery of muscles by further damaging them. Every time, after I do a weightlifting workout consisting of lunges, deadlifts, and hindu squats, etc. my legs get sore the next day. I’ve tried researching a number of articles on this website in addition to having read a number of messages on this website’s forum from my own threads as well as from other people’s threads pertaining to managing soreness, and all of them say that whenever you weight train soreness becomes inevitable.

I’ve also tried looking all over elsewhere on the internet and in other books, but I have no luck so far. So, how am I supposed to be able to improve my flexibility if I keep getting sore frequently?

2

First, I’d suggest checking out Kit Laughlin’s material if you haven’t already.

Next, yes some muscle soreness is pretty much inevitable if you are lifting heavy or to failure. I’d suggest staying at least a few reps shy of failure and reducing the volume of your lower body resistance training if your are experiencing debilitating degrees of soreness. You could also try supplementing with l-glutamine (which has always helped me keep soreness at bay in the past).

Third, I’d suggest doing some foam rolling (before your workouts to release chronically tight muscles, and the next day to help relieve muscle soreness and regain ROM), doing some dynamic stretching/mobility work during your warm-ups (whether it’s your Hapkido classes/workouts, resistance training, conditioning, etc…) and doing some static stretching on your off days.

Lastly, in my experience regular static stretching not only does not interfere/inhibit muscle recover, it significantly increases it. On the other hand, PNF stretching, weighted/isometric stretching, and active stretching (against resistance) can all cause micro damage similar to resistance training and should not be performed when the muscles are sore. So perform your PNF, isometric or weighted active stretching 1-2 times a week (preferably after your intense leg training sessions and 3-4 days later) and go ahead and do dynamic and/or static stretching on all other days.

Good luck.

3

Bill Wallace’s material would be another excellent source, especially for the specific purpose of kicking high (since Bill was the best ever at it).

4

Bull_Scientist,

Sentoguy’s response is gold.

I think Kurz was/is a big proponent of active/PNF stretching and that may explain his aversion to doing it when overly sore. That type of work is strength work.

A few points.

Your body can adapt over time, so just because you are sore/beat up this week doesn’t mean the same workload will always put you through the floor.

Soreness is not always a great measure of recovery or a workout’s effect.

Is your diet/nutrition being seen to. In addition to Sento’s recommendation, if you are not following a general supplement regimen you may find it helpful. Searching this site will give you a bunch of articles about inflammation and base line supplements, but I tend to find recommending an omega 3(And the Flameout that Biotest sells is one of the best and most cost effective), a B-complex, Vit D, and some type of mineral supplement(ElitePro is probably worth it, but the ZMA Biotest sells is a best buy as far as bang for buck and inflammation control goes. I have seen good clinical effects from mag supplements.) to be the default for most folks. Additionally, many people find protein supps very useful.

How sore are we talking here?

What does your training look like?

Disclaimer/Disclosure: Other than enjoying these boards and having used Biotest products I am in no way affiliated with them. The above nutritional information is to be considered general. I am not YOUR doctor.

Regards,

Robert A

5

Agreed with Robert’s advice about supplements. But his mention of diet/nutrition in general is even more important IMO.

Supplements can be great, and Biotest does indeed offer some very good ones if you can afford them (I’m also not affiliated with Biotest in any way), but they should not replace a well balanced diet. A good analogy would be to liken supplements to NO2 (Nitrus Oxide) boosters on a car. Yes they can give you that extra kick to max out your speed, but without gas in the tank (healthy nutrient rich food in this analogy), they won’t be of much help.

So if your nutrition is poor (or you couldn’t tell me with at least 90% accuracy exactly what you ate last week), I’d suggest starting there rather than spending your money on supplements at this point.

6

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
First, I’d suggest checking out Kit Laughlin’s material if you haven’t already.

Next, yes some muscle soreness is pretty much inevitable if you are lifting heavy or to failure. I’d suggest staying at least a few reps shy of failure and reducing the volume of your lower body resistance training if your are experiencing debilitating degrees of soreness. You could also try supplementing with l-glutamine (which has always helped me keep soreness at bay in the past).

Third, I’d suggest doing some foam rolling (before your workouts to release chronically tight muscles, and the next day to help relieve muscle soreness and regain ROM), doing some dynamic stretching/mobility work during your warm-ups (whether it’s your Hapkido classes/workouts, resistance training, conditioning, etc…) and doing some static stretching on your off days.

Lastly, in my experience regular static stretching not only does not interfere/inhibit muscle recover, it significantly increases it. On the other hand, PNF stretching, weighted/isometric stretching, and active stretching (against resistance) can all cause micro damage similar to resistance training and should not be performed when the muscles are sore. So perform your PNF, isometric or weighted active stretching 1-2 times a week (preferably after your intense leg training sessions and 3-4 days later) and go ahead and do dynamic and/or static stretching on all other days.

Good luck.

[/quote]

Wait, but I actually remember recently reading an article on this website by John Paul catanzaro where he said that 3) Stretching will reduce soreness.

â?¢ Static stretching can increase muscle soreness and damage as indicated by elevated creatine kinase in blood.

â?¢ Stretching before and after exercise has no effect on muscle soreness."

So I am still confused or unsure of what to do.

7

Tell you what, try adding static stretching after your workouts and on your off days for a couple weeks and see if you notice a difference.

I’m not citing studies or any abstract blood chemistry stats when I say that static stretching reduces soreness; I’m telling you that in my 15 years of structured (serious) resistance and athletic training, 8 years of personal training experience and 11 years of RMA training and coaching/teaching my experience tells me that static stretching reduces soreness if done consistently.

Someone wrote an article here on T-Nation that basically said that static stretching is a waste of time, yet you can find plenty of martial artists, yoga practitioners, dancers, and gymnasts that would tell you otherwise. In other words, if you look hard enough you can find justification or support for or against just about any training method. That doesn’t mean that all opinions are equal though. My suggestion is listen to all opinions (as even a broken clock is right twice a day and completely closing your mind to a differing opinion might lead you to miss out on potentially valuable information), but place more weight/value to opinions coming from people who have achieved what you want to achieve.

Lots of trainers and sports scientists will tell you not to static stretch during your warm-ups, but Bill Wallace (the best left leg/kicker the sport of full contact karate/kickboxing ever known) advocates static stretching (and fairly intense static stretching at that) during your warm-ups. He has been doing so for decades now and still continues to do so into his 60’s. I’m sure that some sport scientists or trainers would tell him he’s been doing it wrong. To which he’d probably smile and then sign their forehead with his left big toe nail before they knew what was happening.

But again, don’t take my word for it or any other author on this sites. Try it out for yourself (and give it an honest try, don’t just do it once and then say it didn’t work) and decide for yourself if you think it benefits you. That’s really the only way to know for sure.

8

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Tell you what, try adding static stretching after your workouts and on your off days for a couple weeks and see if you notice a difference.

I’m not citing studies or any abstract blood chemistry stats when I say that static stretching reduces soreness; I’m telling you that in my 15 years of structured (serious) resistance and athletic training, 8 years of personal training experience and 11 years of RMA training and coaching/teaching my experience tells me that static stretching reduces soreness if done consistently.

Someone wrote an article here on T-Nation that basically said that static stretching is a waste of time, yet you can find plenty of martial artists, yoga practitioners, dancers, and gymnasts that would tell you otherwise. In other words, if you look hard enough you can find justification or support for or against just about any training method. That doesn’t mean that all opinions are equal though. My suggestion is listen to all opinions (as even a broken clock is right twice a day and completely closing your mind to a differing opinion might lead you to miss out on potentially valuable information), but place more weight/value to opinions coming from people who have achieved what you want to achieve.

Lots of trainers and sports scientists will tell you not to static stretch during your warm-ups, but Bill Wallace (the best left leg/kicker the sport of full contact karate/kickboxing ever known) advocates static stretching (and fairly intense static stretching at that) during your warm-ups. He has been doing so for decades now and still continues to do so into his 60’s. I’m sure that some sport scientists or trainers would tell him he’s been doing it wrong. To which he’d probably smile and then sign their forehead with his left big toe nail before they knew what was happening.

But again, don’t take my word for it or any other author on this sites. Try it out for yourself (and give it an honest try, don’t just do it once and then say it didn’t work) and decide for yourself if you think it benefits you. That’s really the only way to know for sure.[/quote]

Well, I agree that that’s true in the short-run, but I am also concerned as to whether or not stretching a sore muscle, even if you just do relaxed stretches, increases the risk of an injury in the long-run. I am not saying that your wrong, I just would like to know or understand as to what might happen if, for instance, I do what you suggest for a couple of weeks or more and then I end up with asymptomatic cumulative damage in a muscle, ligament, tendon, fascia, or cartilage that will ultimately cause some sort of injury in the future regardless of whether or not the stretching method works in improving flexibility as well as reducing muscle soreness for the moment? I don’t know if perhaps that’s one of the things that experts like Tom Kurz mean by “irrational training”?

9

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Tell you what, try adding static stretching after your workouts and on your off days for a couple weeks and see if you notice a difference.

I’m not citing studies or any abstract blood chemistry stats when I say that static stretching reduces soreness; I’m telling you that in my 15 years of structured (serious) resistance and athletic training, 8 years of personal training experience and 11 years of RMA training and coaching/teaching my experience tells me that static stretching reduces soreness if done consistently.

Someone wrote an article here on T-Nation that basically said that static stretching is a waste of time, yet you can find plenty of martial artists, yoga practitioners, dancers, and gymnasts that would tell you otherwise. In other words, if you look hard enough you can find justification or support for or against just about any training method. That doesn’t mean that all opinions are equal though. My suggestion is listen to all opinions (as even a broken clock is right twice a day and completely closing your mind to a differing opinion might lead you to miss out on potentially valuable information), but place more weight/value to opinions coming from people who have achieved what you want to achieve.

Lots of trainers and sports scientists will tell you not to static stretch during your warm-ups, but Bill Wallace (the best left leg/kicker the sport of full contact karate/kickboxing ever known) advocates static stretching (and fairly intense static stretching at that) during your warm-ups. He has been doing so for decades now and still continues to do so into his 60’s. I’m sure that some sport scientists or trainers would tell him he’s been doing it wrong. To which he’d probably smile and then sign their forehead with his left big toe nail before they knew what was happening.

But again, don’t take my word for it or any other author on this sites. Try it out for yourself (and give it an honest try, don’t just do it once and then say it didn’t work) and decide for yourself if you think it benefits you. That’s really the only way to know for sure.[/quote]

Well, I agree that that’s true in the short-run, but I am also concerned as to whether or not stretching a sore muscle, even if you just do relaxed stretches, increases the risk of an injury in the long-run. I am not saying that your wrong, I just would like to know or understand as to what might happen if, for instance, I do what you suggest for a couple of weeks or more and then I end up with asymptomatic cumulative damage in a muscle, ligament, tendon, fascia, or cartilage that will ultimately cause some sort of injury in the future regardless of whether or not the stretching method works in improving flexibility as well as reducing muscle soreness for the moment? I don’t know if perhaps that’s one of the things that experts like Tom Kurz mean by “irrational training”?[/quote]

Bull_Scientist,

I am comfortable answering the above. However, so I can do a better job explaining would you mind answering a few questions.

1.) What is your age?
2.) What is your training age? (in martial arts, in lifting, in athletics)
3.) What is your level of education? (grade or if under or post graduate what major/degrees)

Some of the terms you are using combined witht the questions asked makes me worried I won’t be able to do as well without these answers.

Regards,

Robert A

10

You seem to be suffering from a serious case of “paralysis by analysis” here. If two weeks of static stretching results in enough cumulative damage to the tissues, then you are either “Mr. Glass” from the movie Unbreakable, or you are stretching way, way, way too hard.

Seriously, I just told you that Bill Wallace, the greatest kicker of the 20th century, a martial artist that Kurz couldn’t hold a candle to, has been stretching and advocating to others to follow suit for decades now. When I trained with him just a few months ago, at the age of 68, he could still kick anyone in the room in the head with ease, and he could do it lightning quick, accurately, and repeatedly.

Your fear is completely unfounded, and in fact, most injuries occur due to a lack of mobility, not due to performing static stretching correctly.

But, one distinction that Kit Laughlin makes, which I tend to like, is that there is a difference between “stretching” (exercises actually designed to increase ROM within a muscle/joint) and “limbering” (exercises designed to regain your current degree of ROM when you are stiff or sore). What most people do (basically a static passive stretch held for somewhere around 20-30 seconds) would be called “limbering” and can be safely performed on a daily basis. On the other hand, PNF stretching, Loaded/Isometric stretching, very intensive or prolonged static stretching, and even intense active stretching would all be categorized as “flexibility/stretching” work and should only be performed 1-3 times a week (and not while a muscle is still sore).

This is the approach that I recommend my students and clients use, and should both serve your purpose of improving your flexibility, while at the same time quieting your fears about potentially overdoing things and possibly injuring yourself. Hope this helps.

11

As a taekwondo practitioner of over a decade, I would have to wholeheartedly agree with Sento’s post.

I have read Kurz’s stuff, and I do think you are over analyzing it. Do not lift to failure, and do your PNF stretching twice a week. PNF stretching CAN be very uncomfortable…I remember I used to put cardboard under my feet to better allow me to contract-then relax into my splits.

I would also recommend starting from the ground up as far as stretching. IE calves, then hammies/quads, then glutes and hips.

For kicking, do dynamic leg swings to the front-back and side 3x10 every day.

I would ALSO recommend slow extension kicks…which I believe I took from Bill Wallace. Hold on to somethign and slowly bring your leg up as high as possible for a roundhouse (dollyo chagi) and extend, hold for a second or two, rechamber, and do the same for a side kick then a hook kick. That is ONE rep. These will strengthen your hip flexors big time and give you very good control and isometric strength.

Now that my MA training has taken a huge hit in terms of time, I do not even really stretch anymore, aside from a basic mobility warmup.

While I cannot drop into the splits anymore I can still kick someone about a foot taller than me in the head with power, and I am 5’6. I can also throw high kicks without a warmup.

When I competed in taekwondo (olympic style) I could throw many high kicks with impunity as a result of these stretching routines. I could plant an axe kick on most anyone and would throw combinations that sometimes included multiple head kicks in one salvo.

12

Also remember, that it is the flexibility of the supporting leg which determines the height of the kicking leg. A roundhouse almost looks like a bastardized front split at the top, so you need to have flexibility in your glutes, hammies, and hip flexors.

and as always, practicing through the range of motion is important. That means practicing thousands of high kicks. If your flexibility is poor, start out lower to where you have proper form and gradually increase the height

13

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Bill Wallace’s material would be another excellent source, especially for the specific purpose of kicking high (since Bill was the best ever at it).[/quote]
True!
Slow High Kicks are amazing for developing and improving kicks.

If anybody’s interested in Bill’s videos, you can find them on yt for free

OP, cut out the fluff and just do low volume training.
Pavel’s ‘3-5’ Workout will get you strong without soreness, it’s the same stuff he teaches to SWAT and other law anforcement teams for whom soreness is not always an option.

14

[quote]666Rich wrote:
I would ALSO recommend slow extension kicks…which I believe I took from Bill Wallace.
[/quote]
The first book published in the US by Bruce Lee contained an entire section of traditional chinese training techniques for the legs.
I ll check if I can get an upload link for you guys if anybody’s interested.

15

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
You seem to be suffering from a serious case of “paralysis by analysis” here. If two weeks of static stretching results in enough cumulative damage to the tissues, then you are either “Mr. Glass” from the movie Unbreakable, or you are stretching way, way, way too hard.

Seriously, I just told you that Bill Wallace, the greatest kicker of the 20th century, a martial artist that Kurz couldn’t hold a candle to, has been stretching and advocating to others to follow suit for decades now. When I trained with him just a few months ago, at the age of 68, he could still kick anyone in the room in the head with ease, and he could do it lightning quick, accurately, and repeatedly.

Your fear is completely unfounded, and in fact, most injuries occur due to a lack of mobility, not due to performing static stretching correctly.

But, one distinction that Kit Laughlin makes, which I tend to like, is that there is a difference between “stretching” (exercises actually designed to increase ROM within a muscle/joint) and “limbering” (exercises designed to regain your current degree of ROM when you are stiff or sore). What most people do (basically a static passive stretch held for somewhere around 20-30 seconds) would be called “limbering” and can be safely performed on a daily basis. On the other hand, PNF stretching, Loaded/Isometric stretching, very intensive or prolonged static stretching, and even intense active stretching would all be categorized as “flexibility/stretching” work and should only be performed 1-3 times a week (and not while a muscle is still sore).

This is the approach that I recommend my students and clients use, and should both serve your purpose of improving your flexibility, while at the same time quieting your fears about potentially overdoing things and possibly injuring yourself. Hope this helps.[/quote]

oh okay, so you’re saying that when any muscle is sore, then you shouldn’t use any kind of stretching exercise (even with relaxed stretches) to try to develop flexibility within a given muscle, but to stretch it only to the point of regaining my current degree of flexibility? Is this right?

16

Kind of. What I’m saying is that for an adult, simply holding a single static stretch for each body part won’t usually result in much of an increase in flexibility (there will be some, but it’ll be slow going). This style of stretching also doesn’t cause much if any damage to the muscles themselves. So, this style of stretching is safe to perform daily, even on sore/stiff muscles. Just moving through your range of motion (often called “dynamic stretching” or “mobility drills”) is also pretty safe to perform every day, but also won’t result in much if any overall increase in flexibility.

On the other hand, things like PNF stretching, loaded/isometric stretching, or intense active stretching can and will produce significant increases in flexibility/mobility over time, but due to their more intensive nature (like has been stated several times, these are very similar to strength training in nature) they cannot be performed as regularly, and should not be performed on sore/stiff muscles.

The first group would be called “limbering” and is safe to do everyday if desired. The second group would be called “stretching/flexibility” exercises and should only be performed 1-3 (I like 666Rich’s suggestion of 2x per week) times per week to allow the muscles to recover between sessions (very similar to strength training).

17

Okay, that makes a lot more sense to me.

Also, if DOMS becomes virtually inevitable after any given moderate to high volume resistance workout then how would I be able to adequately guage as to whether or not my muscles have developed enough mechanical and structural strength to handle isometric/PNF stretches?

18

Unless you have been completely sedentary for a long time you should have no issues performing PNF stretching. The method itself was originally developed for physical therapy purposes (which generally involves people who are likely in a much more fragile and deconditioned stare than you are likely to currently be in), so it’s fairly safe to assume that you should be fine/safe to perform it.

Isometric stretching on the other hand is a little more dangerous and advanced. Personally, I’d suggest going with loaded dynamic stretches (like stiff leg windmills, Jefferson curls, or weighted inlocates/disloacates) as these help build strength through the full range of motion, and help stretch the muscles by way of the added resistance. I would save the isometric stretches for later down the road when you have developed significant flexibility and strength in the extended range of motion and are trying to eek out that last little bit of flexibility.

19

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Unless you have been completely sedentary for a long time you should have no issues performing PNF stretching. The method itself was originally developed for physical therapy purposes (which generally involves people who are likely in a much more fragile and deconditioned stare than you are likely to currently be in), so it’s fairly safe to assume that you should be fine/safe to perform it.

Isometric stretching on the other hand is a little more dangerous and advanced. Personally, I’d suggest going with loaded dynamic stretches (like stiff leg windmills, Jefferson curls, or weighted inlocates/disloacates) as these help build strength through the full range of motion, and help stretch the muscles by way of the added resistance. I would save the isometric stretches for later down the road when you have developed significant flexibility and strength in the extended range of motion and are trying to eek out that last little bit of flexibility.[/quote]

Alright, makes sense, btw I realize that whenever I do two relaxed stretches for the hamstrings and two relaxed stretches for the hip adductors after a workout, that it takes about 30-45 min. To complete all the stretches. Is a stretching session of such a duration too long, especially when it’s done after a 1-1.5 hour strength or conditioning workout session?

20

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Unless you have been completely sedentary for a long time you should have no issues performing PNF stretching. The method itself was originally developed for physical therapy purposes (which generally involves people who are likely in a much more fragile and deconditioned stare than you are likely to currently be in), so it’s fairly safe to assume that you should be fine/safe to perform it.

Isometric stretching on the other hand is a little more dangerous and advanced. Personally, I’d suggest going with loaded dynamic stretches (like stiff leg windmills, Jefferson curls, or weighted inlocates/disloacates) as these help build strength through the full range of motion, and help stretch the muscles by way of the added resistance. I would save the isometric stretches for later down the road when you have developed significant flexibility and strength in the extended range of motion and are trying to eek out that last little bit of flexibility.[/quote]

Alright, makes sense, btw I realize that whenever I do two relaxed stretches for the hamstrings and two relaxed stretches for the hip adductors after a workout, that it takes about 30-45 min. To complete all the stretches. Is a stretching session of such a duration too long, especially when it’s done after a 1-1.5 hour strength or conditioning workout session?[/quote]

How does it take so long? If you stretch one leg at a time, it should take at most 8-9 minutes to do two stretches for you hammy and two stretches for your hips.

Stretch for a minute. Do a different stretch for a minute. That’s what I do and I noticed a massive improvement. Don’t over think it. Use pain as your guide. If it hurts, you’re going too far. If it’s uncomfortable, you’re making gains. If it is easy, you’re doing bugger all.

I couldn’t even get close to crossing my legs when I started, my knees were up near my armpits when I tried. Now I can pretty much do it. So if it works for me, it’ll work for you,