Soreness in Legs Hinders Flexibility Training

Training
21

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Unless you have been completely sedentary for a long time you should have no issues performing PNF stretching. The method itself was originally developed for physical therapy purposes (which generally involves people who are likely in a much more fragile and deconditioned stare than you are likely to currently be in), so it’s fairly safe to assume that you should be fine/safe to perform it.

Isometric stretching on the other hand is a little more dangerous and advanced. Personally, I’d suggest going with loaded dynamic stretches (like stiff leg windmills, Jefferson curls, or weighted inlocates/disloacates) as these help build strength through the full range of motion, and help stretch the muscles by way of the added resistance. I would save the isometric stretches for later down the road when you have developed significant flexibility and strength in the extended range of motion and are trying to eek out that last little bit of flexibility.[/quote]

Alright, makes sense, btw I realize that whenever I do two relaxed stretches for the hamstrings and two relaxed stretches for the hip adductors after a workout, that it takes about 30-45 min. To complete all the stretches. Is a stretching session of such a duration too long, especially when it’s done after a 1-1.5 hour strength or conditioning workout session?[/quote]

That’s an extremely long time for just a few stretches. My guess is that you’re pushing your stetches too hard if it’s taking your muscles that long to relax.

Here’s a “cliff notes” version of what happens during static passive stretching

-you elongate the target muscle (can be done using gravity, some other unrelated muscle groups, like pulling your leg up to your chest using a yoga strap/martial arts belt, or even with the assistance of the antagonist)

-your muscles have sensory organs in them which send signals to your spinal cord/brain that let your nervous system know the length and position of your muscles/limbs in space. These organs get accustomed to a certain “safe” range of motion and once you reach this ROM the nervous system sends a signal to your muscles to contract to protect you from overextending/tearing something. This is called the Myotatic or Stretch reflex.

-unfortunately for many of us, we stop using our joints’ natural full ROM’s and out bodies idea of what is “safe” actually winds up being much less than out joints are actually safely capable of. This results in our lack of or diminished flexibility

-so, once we feel tension in the muscles (resulting from this protective contraction), we need to hold that position and try to mentally and physically relax as much as possible.

-generally speaking our muscles/nervous system will relax/stop freaking out/accept this new ROM as safe within anywhere from 20-60 seconds. The more often we do static stretching and the better we get at controlling the tension within out muscles the closer to that bottom number this will take. Once out muscles have relaxed we can either stop the stretch and call it a day (for that muscle/specific ROM), or repeat the process again. The former of the two is fine to do daily, the later is more intense and should be treated more like PNF and other intense “flexibility” work

-if we repeat this process enough our neuromuscular systems become gradually accustomed to greater and greater ROM’s before triggering the stretch reflex, which results in improved “flexibility”

22

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Unless you have been completely sedentary for a long time you should have no issues performing PNF stretching. The method itself was originally developed for physical therapy purposes (which generally involves people who are likely in a much more fragile and deconditioned stare than you are likely to currently be in), so it’s fairly safe to assume that you should be fine/safe to perform it.

Isometric stretching on the other hand is a little more dangerous and advanced. Personally, I’d suggest going with loaded dynamic stretches (like stiff leg windmills, Jefferson curls, or weighted inlocates/disloacates) as these help build strength through the full range of motion, and help stretch the muscles by way of the added resistance. I would save the isometric stretches for later down the road when you have developed significant flexibility and strength in the extended range of motion and are trying to eek out that last little bit of flexibility.[/quote]

Alright, makes sense, btw I realize that whenever I do two relaxed stretches for the hamstrings and two relaxed stretches for the hip adductors after a workout, that it takes about 30-45 min. To complete all the stretches. Is a stretching session of such a duration too long, especially when it’s done after a 1-1.5 hour strength or conditioning workout session?[/quote]

That’s an extremely long time for just a few stretches. My guess is that you’re pushing your stetches too hard if it’s taking your muscles that long to relax.

Here’s a “cliff notes” version of what happens during static passive stretching

-you elongate the target muscle (can be done using gravity, some other unrelated muscle groups, like pulling your leg up to your chest using a yoga strap/martial arts belt, or even with the assistance of the antagonist)

-your muscles have sensory organs in them which send signals to your spinal cord/brain that let your nervous system know the length and position of your muscles/limbs in space. These organs get accustomed to a certain “safe” range of motion and once you reach this ROM the nervous system sends a signal to your muscles to contract to protect you from overextending/tearing something. This is called the Myotatic or Stretch reflex.

-unfortunately for many of us, we stop using our joints’ natural full ROM’s and out bodies idea of what is “safe” actually winds up being much less than out joints are actually safely capable of. This results in our lack of or diminished flexibility

-so, once we feel tension in the muscles (resulting from this protective contraction), we need to hold that position and try to mentally and physically relax as much as possible.

-generally speaking our muscles/nervous system will relax/stop freaking out/accept this new ROM as safe within anywhere from 20-60 seconds. The more often we do static stretching and the better we get at controlling the tension within out muscles the closer to that bottom number this will take. Once out muscles have relaxed we can either stop the stretch and call it a day (for that muscle/specific ROM), or repeat the process again. The former of the two is fine to do daily, the later is more intense and should be treated more like PNF and other intense “flexibility” work

-if we repeat this process enough our neuromuscular systems become gradually accustomed to greater and greater ROM’s before triggering the stretch reflex, which results in improved “flexibility”[/quote]

Right, I understand what you’re saying happens during passive static stretching. As a matter of fact I have already thoroughly studied everything that Tom Kurz has said in his book, Stretching Scientifically, including having carefully read the anatomical and physiological concepts behind stretching that are explained in his book and have reviewed them myself many times. I believe that the organs you are referring to are the golgi tendon organs and the muscle spindles. The golgi tendon organs are located at each junction of the skeletal muscle and tendon, and these organs detect or sense the changes in muscle tension. The muscle spindles are located in the middle of each muscle group, and these organs detect or sense the change in muscle length. In any case, let me give you the specifics of my stretching session which would occur after a given weightlifting and/or Hapkido workout:

  1. I do either the lying hamstring stretch or the standing hamstring stretch where I put the lifted leg on a support while I standing. I stretch one leg at a time with either one of these stretches for no more than 30 sec. per set on each leg. I do either stretch for 4 sets on each leg with a 1 min. break in between each set.
  2. I then do a one leg adductor stretch where I put one leg up on a support, and bend sideways. I do one leg at time for no more than 30 sec. per set on each leg and for 4 sets on each leg with a 1 min. break in between each set.
  3. Then, assuming I had time I go into front splits before doing the side splits. With the front splits I do each leg for no more than 30 sec. per set, and for 4 sets on each leg with a 1 min. recovery period in between each set.
  4. My last stretch would always be the side splits where I’d stretch for no more than 30 sec. for 4 sets with a 1 min. break in between each set.

Also, everytime I do any given stretch I always make sure that I stretch the muscle to where I only have mild discomfort and not pain. In addition, usually my muscles are able to relax within 10-20 sec. of a given stretch I do, provided that I first do a light warm-up or a strength or conditioning workout and then immediately do my stretching routine. So is there anyway that I can make this stretching routine of mine shorter?

23

Yes, there is.

Instead of doing 4 sets of 30 seconds per side (with a 1 minute rest between sets) you could do.

  1. Perform a PNF stretch for the Hamstrings (my personal preference is for a lunge hamstring stretch); 1 set on each side, then determine which side is tighter and do another PNF stretch on that side

-Do a PNF stretch for the Hip Flexors (again, lunge hip flexor stretches work well here); 1 set on each leg, then determine which side is tighter and do another PNF stretch for that side

-Perform a PNF stretch for the Adductors (unless you’ve already mastered them and are very close to side splits I’d recommend either a Butterfly or Frog stretch here as both allow focus on the adductors with no strain placed on the knee); 1-2 sets if you like/feel you need it (also, with the frog stretch, you can place a folded up towel under 1 knee to make sliding the knees further apart easier, works best on smooth mats or hard floors, and focus a little more stretch one one leg or the other).

-Perform a PNF stretch for the Hip Abductors (Piriformis); 1 set each side, then determine which side was tighter and repeat on that side

-You can (and I’d actually advise that you did) perform a PNF stretch for the Quadriceps, Gastrocnemius, and Anterior Tibialis as all of these muscles can affect flexibility at the knee and or hip joint and keeping them used to a healthy ROM will provide for more efficient and healthy movement in general

Even if you decide to stretch the additional muscle groups that I listed at the end (which again I encourage you to do), this routine should take you somewhere between 15-20 minutes to complete (especially if, as you say, you can get your muscles to relax within 10-20 seconds of activating the stretch reflex

Also, you only need to hold each isometric contraction (during a PNF stretch) for somewhere between 5-10 seconds (I use 5, both with myself and my trainees/clients and it works just fine for us), so don’t waste time or energy holding it for longer periods than that.

Again, do this routine 2 times per week (preferably after intense strength work, but following an intense Hapkido class would also work fine) with about 3-4 days between. On your other days just do 1-2 (2 if something felt especially tight) repetitions of a static stretch for each muscle group (or, if you like those static stretches you are currently doing, use those). If you want additional mobility work preceed your passive static stretching with some dynamic mobility work and/or some soft tissue/Self Myofascial Release work (but remember that this is more active rest/recovery work than aggressive flexibility work, so don’t go too nuts on the intensity or duration).

24

Hey, I’m back. Sorry for not making any immediate responses within the past few days, but I got tied up with other things over the weekend. So anyways, I realized on last Friday that I made some mistakes in typing down my routine on this thread and it’s because on the day that I made that post I was in a rush due to having a lot things on that day. It supposed to be:

  1. I do either the lying hamstring stretch or the standing hamstring stretch where I put the lifted leg on a support while I standing. I stretch one leg at a time with either one of these stretches for about 30 sec. per rep on each leg. I count one rep on each leg as a set. I do this for 4 sets with a 30 sec. rest- and not a 1 min. rest- for both legs in between each set.

  2. I then do a one leg adductor stretch where I put one leg up on a support, and bend sideways. I do one leg at a time for about 30 sec. per rep on each leg. I count one rep on each leg as a set. I do this for 4 sets on each leg with a 30 sec. break and not a 1 min. rest- for both legs in between each set.

  3. Then, assuming that I have time I go into front splits before doing the side splits I would do each leg for about 30 sec. on each leg. Again, like the lying hamstring stretch and the one leg adductor stretch I count one rep on each leg as a set. I do this for 4 sets on each leg with a 30 sec. break- and not a 1 min. rest- for both legs in between each set.

  4. My last stretch would always be the side splits where I’d stretch for no more than 30 sec. for 4 sets with a 1 min. break in between each set.

According to my calculations, this should add up to being no more than 25 min. instead of it being 30-45 min. Although, sometimes I do end up taking 45 min. in the stretching session I feel my hips and hamstrings are tight in a given day. Nevertheless, from now one I will cut back my stretching session to 25 min. In addition, I will try out SentoGuy’s recommended PNF stretches and using them 3 times a week at the most.