Someone Is Full Of It...

Training Powerlifting
41

It’s okay Airtruth, I looked back at my posts and I realize how I come off. I’m sorry for that. It’s easy to lose one’s bearings while on the internet.

However, I don’t exactly retract my statements. I still think I’ve got an edge when it comes to gaining strength. Maybe not like a Vernon Davis super-freak edge, but an edge none the less. To prove it, I’m going to tack power cleans on to the end of my sprint workouts and repost in three months (around the new year) when I power clean 300 lbs. Give me until May and I’ll clean 335.

My strength numbers up to this point may look poor, but that’s only because they’ve been an afterthought.

Sorry about having hijacked this thread. I’ll make sure it doesn’t happen again.

42

The problem is that I know people who had average genetics and weighed less than you, who cleaned that in high school. At 200 pounds, 18+, and being a sprinter you SHOULD be cleaning over 315. Right now you’re playing catch up.

Something else that you need to realize is that gains come easy for everyone when they are screwing around with light weight. Once you start hitting plateaus is when you find out about your genetics.

43

[quote]tveddy wrote:

Something else that you need to realize is that gains come easy for everyone when they are screwing around with light weight. Once you start hitting plateaus is when you find out about your genetics.[/quote]

That’s a really good point alright. I like to think I’ve above average genetics too. Not super freak standards tho. I’ve only ever really had one plateau, my deadlit was stuck at 190kg for about a year, it was mostly mental, and now 14 months on I’ve pulled 250kg.

44

Its not realy about genetics as it is food consistancy and smart training.

I see people all the time that if they put int the effort they could be strong as hell. But they arent because they dont give the effort.

45

[quote]tveddy wrote:
The problem is that I know people who had average genetics and weighed less than you, who cleaned that in high school. At 200 pounds, 18+, and being a sprinter you SHOULD be cleaning over 315. Right now you’re playing catch up.

Something else that you need to realize is that gains come easy for everyone when they are screwing around with light weight. Once you start hitting plateaus is when you find out about your genetics.[/quote]

again, well said.

no to qualify, i am a fat old guy now, but my numbers in HS blew rj’s away, and i was only average for the guys i worked out with. true it was a southeastern football factory that i grew up in, but just about everybody with a number on their back greater than 28 could clean 300lbs plus, squat 500lbs, and bench 400lbs.

hell, just about every fat redneck who would stop by the gym still in their camouflage and muddy boots on the way out of the woods from deer hunting could “bounce press” 400lbs of their chest for reps.

bottom line FREAK, is that even if you devoted a few months of your valuable time to strength training, and put some decent numbers up( which i believe you can), i would still have the same attiude that i have towards you.

why? shit man, the REAL freaks of this game(chuck v., ed coan, pudinoski, ect) do not talk about themselves the way you do.

46

I’m going to take every bit of criticism I receive here in stride, as I most certainly deserve it. I have a somewhat self-centered personality and it’s something I’m working on, but changing one’s personality is not an overnight event. This marks the last time I’ll ever mention my own numbers on this board (with the exception of threads made for that sole purpose) again.

And Heavythrower, the numbers you’re listing are huge, but how were the players athleticism wise? How many guys had 10+ foot broad jumps and 36+ inch vertical leaps, as those are certainly more important to football than a 400 lb bench press?

Also, Marius seems like the type of guy who would brag if his English were good enough. No arguments on Chuck or Coan though.

47

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
I’m going to take every bit of criticism I receive here in stride, as I most certainly deserve it. I have a somewhat self-centered personality and it’s something I’m working on, but changing one’s personality is not an overnight event. This marks the last time I’ll ever mention my own numbers on this board (with the exception of threads made for that sole purpose) again.

And Heavythrower, the numbers you’re listing are huge, but how were the players athleticism wise? How many guys had 10+ foot broad jumps and 36+ inch vertical leaps, as those are certainly more important to football than a 400 lb bench press?

Also, Marius seems like the type of guy who would brag if his English were good enough. No arguments on Chuck or Coan though.[/quote]

rj, your are missing the point. those numbers ARE NOT huge. this was an average southeastern 6a football program i the mid 1980’s! and the average player hit these numbers.

nothing special at all, just the result of getting a bunch of chitlen and cornbread eating southern boys together and MAKING them lift heavy 3 times a week for 4 years. most of these guys are fat sodded redneck sunday afternoon armchair quarterbacks now, i know because i recently had a 20 year high school reunion.

the very few that went on to play d1 college ball, and the one guy i knew that played pro ball (kevin turner, full back for the eagles and patriots) numbers were much more impressive.

when i threw shot at a small community college for one year, the guys i went up against were even more impressive physical specimens, and these were not even national level throwers, let alone olympic caliber.

oh, and what makes you say that about pudinoski? do you know him? an online acquaintance of mine and a long time member/poster on this site got to know him personally during a visit here a fews years back. they maintained a long distance relationship for a while afterwards. she said he was a very humble, down to earth, modest soft spoken guy.

look kid, i got nothing against you, i do not want to start an internet flame war with you, for all i know you are a nice hard working guy. i wish you the best on your goals, keep you log going, and keep us updated with your progress.

i just wanted to let you know how you were coming off sounding in your posts, and to give you some much needed perspective.

48

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
i just wanted to let you know how you were coming off sounding in your posts, and to give you some much needed perspective.
[/quote]

I just don’t want the word genetic freak to go the way of the word “Jacked”. It used to be that only huge guys were jacked. Now its used to describe people who are less than average.

*For more on the decline of the proper usage of the term jacked see http://www.elitefts.com/documents/getting_yoked.htm

49

[quote]RJ24 wrote:
I’m going to take every bit of criticism I receive here in stride, as I most certainly deserve it. I have a somewhat self-centered personality and it’s something I’m working on, but changing one’s personality is not an overnight event. This marks the last time I’ll ever mention my own numbers on this board (with the exception of threads made for that sole purpose) again.

And Heavythrower, the numbers you’re listing are huge, but how were the players athleticism wise? How many guys had 10+ foot broad jumps and 36+ inch vertical leaps, as those are certainly more important to football than a 400 lb bench press?

Also, Marius seems like the type of guy who would brag if his English were good enough. No arguments on Chuck or Coan though.[/quote]

Freshman year of college when I got there we tested. We were just out of high school. I had a buddy who put up 345 bench, 495 squat, and ran a 4.4 40 at 200 pounds and 18 yo. I knew another guy who put up 395 bench, squatted 505 and ran a 4.99 40 at 235.

The coaches told them “don’t worry, we’ll work on it” When the 2 guys graduated the first was benching 450, and squating 600 @ 220 and running a 4.29. The second was Benching 525 squatting 620 @295 and still running a 4.99. Both had average genetics.

The point of this isn’t to say don’t post your weights. By all means post them. Its motivating. The point is to give you something to compare to. I know a lot of people who won’t ever make much progress in the gym because they don’t work hard enough. This isn’t due to laziness though, its because they’ve never been around anythig better and have nothing to compare to.

50

[quote]tveddy wrote:
RJ24 wrote:
I’m going to take every bit of criticism I receive here in stride, as I most certainly deserve it. I have a somewhat self-centered personality and it’s something I’m working on, but changing one’s personality is not an overnight event. This marks the last time I’ll ever mention my own numbers on this board (with the exception of threads made for that sole purpose) again.

And Heavythrower, the numbers you’re listing are huge, but how were the players athleticism wise? How many guys had 10+ foot broad jumps and 36+ inch vertical leaps, as those are certainly more important to football than a 400 lb bench press?

Also, Marius seems like the type of guy who would brag if his English were good enough. No arguments on Chuck or Coan though.

Freshman year of college when I got there we tested. We were just out of high school. I had a buddy who put up 345 bench, 495 squat, and ran a 4.4 40 at 200 pounds and 18 yo. I knew another guy who put up 395 bench, squatted 505 and ran a 4.99 40 at 235.

The coaches told them “don’t worry, we’ll work on it” When the 2 guys graduated the first was benching 450, and squating 600 @ 220 and running a 4.29. The second was Benching 525 squatting 620 @295 and still running a 4.99. Both had average genetics.

The point of this isn’t to say don’t post your weights. By all means post them. Its motivating. The point is to give you something to compare to. I know a lot of people who won’t ever make much progress in the gym because they don’t work hard enough. This isn’t due to laziness though, its because they’ve never been around anythig better and have nothing to compare to.

[/quote]

Man, I highly doubt guys playing college football have average genetics. Maybe average compared to other elite athletes. But compared to the average person of the street, there is no way they are average.

Hell, the one guy was running a 4.29. Even hand timed that is really fast (if it was electronic, it is world class). A guy at my (Canadian) university ran 4.47 and the year before had finished top 10 in the province in the 100m. The 600 lb. squat would be a record for many positions at Nebraska. http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=183&SPID=41&DB_OEM_ID=100&ATCLID=6080 same for the 40 yard time http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=183&SPID=41&DB_OEM_ID=100&ATCLID=6076

51

[quote]OBoile wrote:
Man, I highly doubt guys playing college football have average genetics. Maybe average compared to other elite athletes. But compared to the average person of the street, there is no way they are average.
[/quote]

I don’t know. Maybe some college football players have much greater than average genetics, but I think most are only just above average. What they do have, though, is better than average heart, desire, and experience.

You gotta remember that most freshman football players have been playing and lifting already for 2 years, most for four. If you took they average guy off the street and had him lifting, training, practicing, and playing a position appropriate for his size and abilities for four years, I think most would at least be able to play on a Division III team.

52

SHHH Don’t mention genetics around here cause people get upset ha

53

man, if all these dudes have average genetics, i’m fucking disabled then.

i hope people can see that its not just freaks of nature, and average people…there will be varying degrees of whats considered above or below average, whether it be muscle fibre makeup, nervous system, etc, its not cut and dry

54

by the way, malonetd, thats still a dreamworld, first of all remember that MOST (aka most of what is comprised as “average”) people dont play sports or do Anything atheletic…the people that do are most likely to already excell at them, and then the ones who go on are above them even…

theres too many cases of people training like shit (as in very incosistantly, or being strong before ever stepping into a gym, not just methodologies or antyhign), eating like shit, and having no drive and still beating people working day in and out to ignore it

-i know it is still no excuse because that wont change it, but people really need to wakeup and realize that genetics DO play a roll, like it or not (most that dont seem to think so seem to also be at the high end of things and just think that they train harder and eat better than everyone else)

55

[quote]brian.m wrote:
man, if all these dudes have average genetics, i’m fucking disabled then.

i hope people can see that its not just freaks of nature, and average people…there will be varying degrees of whats considered above or below average, whether it be muscle fibre makeup, nervous system, etc, its not cut and dry[/quote]

The whole point is that its not genetics, its training. the guys with superior genetics play in the league.

56

I have to admit that while I dont think RJ is a genetic freak by any means, the numbers being thrown out by heavy and tveddy do seem a bit high. 400 lb bench presses and 500 lbs squats (which i’m assuming were legit, parallel) are both pretty serious for high schoolers. As far as those guys who go on to the league having better numbers, a friend of mine who played for a big 10 school said the best clean he ever saw was 300x6, and thats by a guy who had been in a major program for a few years.

Understand I’m not questioning what heavy or tveddy saw, I’m not saying theyre exxagerating, but to accept that as “average” would be pretty mind blowing

Just to add to what I mean, these are some unequipped bench numbers posted by Sean Katterle on powerliftingwatch.com from the recent clash of the titans and the previous years mr O bench competition, Kings of the Bench

Levi Van Dyke (3rd Place in 2006 with 450@248)
James Searcy (5th Place Hwt. Clash of the Titans 430@350

and

Matt Kroczaleski (2nd Place in 2006 with 505@247)
Rock Lewis (1st Place Clash of the Titans 580@244)
Russell Kitani (2nd Place Clash of the Titans 550@265
Chip Edalgo (3rd Place Clash of the Titans 535@252)
Gunny Green (4th Place Clash of the Titans 530@225)
Brad Tripp (4th Place Clash of the Titans 485@325)
Dustin Gibbons (5th Place Clash of the Titans 500@262)

And these are adult males, not 22 year old college kids, who specialize in weightlifting, they’re not doing it as an accessory to their sport. So I think that realistically, tveddy and heavy both know or knew guys who probably could do something in teh strength sports, if they so chose

Of course, that raises teh issue of the fact that there ARE a decent number of strong guys walking around not competing simply because the strength sports dont provide enough of an incentive. This is a subject for a whole other thread, but how many guys would be playing in the NFL and putting their bodies through the abuse if they didnt have the opportunity to set themselves, and sometimes their children, up for life? A lot fewer, I can tell you that

57

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
I have to admit that while I dont think RJ is a genetic freak by any means, the numbers being thrown out by heavy and tveddy do seem a bit high. 400 lb bench presses and 500 lbs squats (which i’m assuming were legit, parallel) are both pretty serious for high schoolers. As far as those guys who go on to the league having better numbers, a friend of mine who played for a big 10 school said the best clean he ever saw was 300x6, and thats by a guy who had been in a major program for a few years.

Understand I’m not questioning what heavy or tveddy saw, I’m not saying theyre exxagerating, but to accept that as “average” would be pretty mind blowing

Just to add to what I mean, these are some unequipped bench numbers posted by Sean Katterle on powerliftingwatch.com from the recent clash of the titans and the previous years mr O bench competition, Kings of the Bench

Levi Van Dyke (3rd Place in 2006 with 450@248)
James Searcy (5th Place Hwt. Clash of the Titans 430@350

and

Matt Kroczaleski (2nd Place in 2006 with 505@247)
Rock Lewis (1st Place Clash of the Titans 580@244)
Russell Kitani (2nd Place Clash of the Titans 550@265
Chip Edalgo (3rd Place Clash of the Titans 535@252)
Gunny Green (4th Place Clash of the Titans 530@225)
Brad Tripp (4th Place Clash of the Titans 485@325)
Dustin Gibbons (5th Place Clash of the Titans 500@262)

And these are adult males, not 22 year old college kids, who specialize in weightlifting, they’re not doing it as an accessory to their sport. So I think that realistically, tveddy and heavy both know or knew guys who probably could do something in teh strength sports, if they so chose
[/quote]

I was loooking at the numbers tveddy posted to and I nearly broke down in tears because if that’s average then I’m not worth shit.

Comparing them to the kings of bench numbers is quite interesting…

58

Someone mentioned Bulgarian lifters using 90% consitantly in training?

This is not 90% of comp max, but 90% of a training max done on the same day with little mental effort. Very different from 90% of a full out max done in a comp. Plus powerlifting moves done at max load are quasi-isometrics (Siff) ie slow ‘grinding’ efforts and vastly different from the oly movments.

The above make copmraisons of loads used in by the Oly community difficult to compare to powerlifters etc. Not to mention teh restorative methods employed by the, then, soviet block countries.

59

Look how far this thread has gone. Brian.m I don’t think anybody doesn’t suspect that genetics plays a roll in life. The problem is people are too quick to throw it out or have no basis for their genetic statements.
I’ve seen plenty of people with below average genetics get a personal trainer and for a month all of a sudden have pretty good genes.

I also doubt TVeddy was trying to tear down RJ’s numbers, just not high enough to be labeled “a genetic freak”. I’ve seen TVeddy’s advice and think quite a few times he has based his adviced on a much more advanced athletic population then some of the people on here.

D1 College football is a whole other animal. Many people on here would have some seriuos gains if they just went through one season training for college football, not even including playing. I know I had no discipline to do the crazy shit they had to do. 2 and 3 a day practice and workouts for 2 hours a peice on about 6.5 7 hours sleep a day. They have great numbers for a reason. .

I know I seen a guy about 6’1-2 195 and with all his long arms throw up 315 on bench fast for a warm up. Then proceed to work out with 385 and 390. Him I would label a genetic freak because I’ve never seen anybody that looked as thin as him do that, and even the other football players looked at him in amazement.

As far as average nobody on the team from 150lbs to 400lbs was benching less than 1.75x body weight

60

[quote]brian.m wrote:
by the way, malonetd, thats still a dreamworld, first of all remember that MOST (aka most of what is comprised as “average”) people dont play sports or do Anything atheletic…the people that do are most likely to already excell at them, and then the ones who go on are above them even…[/quote]

Let me try this again. I don’t think I clearly stated the point I was trying to make.

Yes, we both know that most people are not regularly athletic or doing any kind of physical training on a consistent basis. My point is that if the entire population actually did play sports, and actually did train and lift weights, the gap between the average person and a low-level college athlete would be very small.

Of course there would still people that just have no strength or skill or coordination, but there’s also likely many genetically gifted athletes out there lying dormant. I think it’s very likely that there’s another Jordan out there, but he just doesn’t know it because he’s been playing Dungeons and Dragons his whole life.

Training, heart, and desire are much more important, and a much more of a deciding factor than genetics. I hope I made a little more sense this time.