Someone Is Full Of It...

Training Powerlifting
61

[quote]tveddy wrote:
brian.m wrote:
man, if all these dudes have average genetics, i’m fucking disabled then.

i hope people can see that its not just freaks of nature, and average people…there will be varying degrees of whats considered above or below average, whether it be muscle fibre makeup, nervous system, etc, its not cut and dry

The whole point is that its not genetics, its training. the guys with superior genetics play in the league.[/quote]

There are many different degrees of “superior”.

Guys who are “average” got cut from their pop-warner team when they were kids. People who managed to start for their high school team are either above average (typically), or are hard workers (rarely).

“Average” = overweight and out of shape, even for kids.

I never once made my highschool basketball team, yet I was easily above average. In gym class, out of a group of roughly 30 people, I was always in the top 4 or 5 of any sport.

Average is the guy benching 135, if they even go to the gym.

Average people don’t train for sports because they got tired of being cut and gave up long ago.

Out of the roughly 700 boys at my highschool, I’d be surprised if even 50 worked out regularly for any extended length of time. Maybe 10 of those guys trained intelligently.

Average is people in my work basketball group who, despite having a Phd, cannot figure out that you can’t cross the line when shooting a free throw (that usually ends up being an air ball anyway).

At my work now there is a “learn to run” program where the goal AFTER 10 WEEKS is a 20 minute jog… and the people doing this are the minority, the “average” person isn’t doing anything.

People can train and get their numbers up sure… but the “average” person doesn’t have the coordination to play sports at a high level.

Average is 150 lbs. of lean mass and a lot of body fat on top. Average is a 5.5 second 40 m dash despite being the size of a small cornerback.

People who play in college are practically all “superior” genetically. The pros won the genetic lottery.

The problem is one of perspective. People playing on a sports team don’t see “average” often and never see “below average”. I played competitive baseball for years. When I got sick of practicing every day I switched to houseleague. I was amazed that there were kids who had played for years but still could not catch the ball consistantly and could not throw the ball from home to 2nd without either bouncing it in or throwing it really high.

62

[quote]malonetd wrote:
brian.m wrote:
by the way, malonetd, thats still a dreamworld, first of all remember that MOST (aka most of what is comprised as “average”) people dont play sports or do Anything atheletic…the people that do are most likely to already excell at them, and then the ones who go on are above them even…

Let me try this again. I don’t think I clearly stated the point I was trying to make.

Yes, we both know that most people are not regularly athletic or doing any kind of physical training on a consistent basis. My point is that if the entire population actually did play sports, and actually did train and lift weights, the gap between the average person and a low-level college athlete would be very small.

Of course there would still people that just have no strength or skill or coordination, but there’s also likely many genetically gifted athletes out there lying dormant. I think it’s very likely that there’s another Jordan out there, but he just doesn’t know it because he’s been playing Dungeons and Dragons his whole life.

Training, heart, and desire are much more important, and a much more of a deciding factor than genetics. I hope I made a little more sense this time.[/quote]

Yes an average person could probably come close to a low-level college athlete in some sports. They could also train themselves up to some good lifting numbers. But a guy who runs 4.29 is not low-level. Nor is a guy who weighs 295 but runs under 5 seconds.

But, they still would lack the coordination/cns efficiency of someone with above genetics.

Based on the small sample that is my childhood, there aren’t many people who are naturally good a sports who don’t play them. Sure there are some that partied too much and became druggies, but very few that decided in their adolescence to drop sports in favour of Dungeons and Dragons (or other non-physical activities).

Many people golf, but something like less than 1 in 10 has a handicap of under 10 (despite decades of practice in most cases)… and you pretty much need to be scratch to get a scholarship.

63

I base my view of average on an average college athlete. Guys who “played little bit in high school” are below average, and the people I know who made it to the league are well above. The reason I said that those 2 were average was that when they came in as freshmen they were average for college.

I guess everything depends on your frame of reference, but I have a hard time trying to compare myself to the average american. I try to set higher standards.

64

[quote]tveddy wrote:
I base my view of average on an average college athlete. Guys who “played little bit in high school” are below average, and the people I know who made it to the league are well above. The reason I said that those 2 were average was that when they came in as freshmen they were average for college.

I guess everything depends on your frame of reference, but I have a hard time trying to compare myself to the average american. I try to set higher standards.[/quote]

Agreed. I also agree 100% with your opinion that hard work can result in a lot of progress and can, to a fairly large extent, overcome genetic advantages.

65

Regarding the original post: I think Louie is great, I’ve been reading his articles for over 15 years and he will be the first to tell you that nothing is abosolute or set in stone. I’ve seen him contradict his earlier “training rules” when his opinion later changed due to more experimentation.

When looking at Louie’s stuff, you have to keep in mind that all of his theoreis have been tested and formulated for elite lifters. The program linked in the 1st post is basically a beginner’s program.

A low level lifter can train must closer to 100% due to lack of neural efficiency, a max effort from them simply does not recruit the same number of muscle fibers or neurons that an elite lifter does. A 185 bencher can do singles at 170 (90%) for weeks on end (and thats how most HS kids train), while benching over 630 every wek would kill a 700 bencher.

Another consideration is the Metal Militia, they work over 90% practically every week, but take long rests between workouts and tend to take every 3rd or 4th week completely off. And they seem to do okay.

66

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
I have to admit that while I dont think RJ is a genetic freak by any means, the numbers being thrown out by heavy and tveddy do seem a bit high. 400 lb bench presses and 500 lbs squats (which i’m assuming were legit, parallel) are both pretty serious for high schoolers. As far as those guys who go on to the league having better numbers, a friend of mine who played for a big 10 school said the best clean he ever saw was 300x6, and thats by a guy who had been in a major program for a few years.

Understand I’m not questioning what heavy or tveddy saw, I’m not saying theyre exxagerating, but to accept that as “average” would be pretty mind blowing

Just to add to what I mean, these are some unequipped bench numbers posted by Sean Katterle on powerliftingwatch.com from the recent clash of the titans and the previous years mr O bench competition, Kings of the Bench

Levi Van Dyke (3rd Place in 2006 with 450@248)
James Searcy (5th Place Hwt. Clash of the Titans 430@350

and

Matt Kroczaleski (2nd Place in 2006 with 505@247)
Rock Lewis (1st Place Clash of the Titans 580@244)
Russell Kitani (2nd Place Clash of the Titans 550@265
Chip Edalgo (3rd Place Clash of the Titans 535@252)
Gunny Green (4th Place Clash of the Titans 530@225)
Brad Tripp (4th Place Clash of the Titans 485@325)
Dustin Gibbons (5th Place Clash of the Titans 500@262)

And these are adult males, not 22 year old college kids, who specialize in weightlifting, they’re not doing it as an accessory to their sport. So I think that realistically, tveddy and heavy both know or knew guys who probably could do something in teh strength sports, if they so chose

Of course, that raises teh issue of the fact that there ARE a decent number of strong guys walking around not competing simply because the strength sports dont provide enough of an incentive. This is a subject for a whole other thread, but how many guys would be playing in the NFL and putting their bodies through the abuse if they didnt have the opportunity to set themselves, and sometimes their children, up for life? A lot fewer, I can tell you that[/quote]

kbc,

your point is well taken, but i am not exaggerating.

no, he form was not anywhere near ipf, the squats barely broke parallel, the benches had huge bounces and the butts flew off the seat, but there was no belts wraps or suits either.

if you find that hard to believe, you shouldn’t. look at me for example. i am VERY, VERY, average, if not below average. look at the pictures of me on this site. high body fat, small joints, high muscle insertions, central obesity, etc, etc, i started lifting at 14, by my senior year i was pulling and squatting around 500, and benching over 300. my first pl competition, my first year out of high school, was the Alabama state /cotton states Pl championships, and in a singlet belt and wraps, hit 535, 335, 535. this was under very strict judging conditions in the now defunct USPF.

if i could hit those numbers, many many of the guys i went to school with who were far better athletes and bigger than me certainly could.

67

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
I have to admit that while I dont think RJ is a genetic freak by any means, the numbers being thrown out by heavy and tveddy do seem a bit high. 400 lb bench presses and 500 lbs squats (which i’m assuming were legit, parallel) are both pretty serious for high schoolers. As far as those guys who go on to the league having better numbers, a friend of mine who played for a big 10 school said the best clean he ever saw was 300x6, and thats by a guy who had been in a major program for a few years.

Understand I’m not questioning what heavy or tveddy saw, I’m not saying theyre exxagerating, but to accept that as “average” would be pretty mind blowing

Just to add to what I mean, these are some unequipped bench numbers posted by Sean Katterle on powerliftingwatch.com from the recent clash of the titans and the previous years mr O bench competition, Kings of the Bench

Levi Van Dyke (3rd Place in 2006 with 450@248)
James Searcy (5th Place Hwt. Clash of the Titans 430@350

and

Matt Kroczaleski (2nd Place in 2006 with 505@247)
Rock Lewis (1st Place Clash of the Titans 580@244)
Russell Kitani (2nd Place Clash of the Titans 550@265
Chip Edalgo (3rd Place Clash of the Titans 535@252)
Gunny Green (4th Place Clash of the Titans 530@225)
Brad Tripp (4th Place Clash of the Titans 485@325)
Dustin Gibbons (5th Place Clash of the Titans 500@262)

And these are adult males, not 22 year old college kids, who specialize in weightlifting, they’re not doing it as an accessory to their sport. So I think that realistically, tveddy and heavy both know or knew guys who probably could do something in teh strength sports, if they so chose

Of course, that raises teh issue of the fact that there ARE a decent number of strong guys walking around not competing simply because the strength sports dont provide enough of an incentive. This is a subject for a whole other thread, but how many guys would be playing in the NFL and putting their bodies through the abuse if they didnt have the opportunity to set themselves, and sometimes their children, up for life? A lot fewer, I can tell you that[/quote]

kbc,

your point is well taken, but i am not exaggerating.

no, he form was not anywhere near ipf, the squats barely broke parallel, the benches had huge bounces and the butts flew off the seat, but there was no belts wraps or suits either.

if you find that hard to believe, you shouldn’t. look at me for example. i am VERY, VERY, average, if not below average. look at the pictures of me on this site. high body fat, small joints, high muscle insertions, central obesity, etc, etc, i started lifting at 14, by my senior year i was pulling and squatting around 500, and benching over 300. my first pl competition, my first year out of high school, was the Alabama state /cotton states Pl championships, and in a singlet belt and wraps, hit 535, 335, 535. this was under very strict judging conditions in the now defunct USPF.

if i could hit those numbers, many many of the guys i went to school with who were far better athletes and bigger than me certainly could.

68

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
kbc,

your point is well taken, but i am not exaggerating.

no, he form was not anywhere near ipf, the squats barely broke parallel, the benches had huge bounces and the butts flew off the seat, but there was no belts wraps or suits either.

if you find that hard to believe, you shouldn’t. look at me for example. i am VERY, VERY, average, if not below average. look at the pictures of me on this site. high body fat, small joints, high muscle insertions, central obesity, etc, etc, i started lifting at 14, by my senior year i was pulling and squatting around 500, and benching over 300. my first pl competition, my first year out of high school, was the Alabama state /cotton states Pl championships, and in a singlet belt and wraps, hit 535, 335, 535. this was under very strict judging conditions in the now defunct USPF.

if i could hit those numbers, many many of the guys i went to school with who were far better athletes and bigger than me certainly could.
[/quote]

Mike, I absolutely take your word for it that if that’s what you saw, that’s what you saw. As so often happens, this is probably just a question of definition, ie, what exactly constitutes average. For instance TVeddy saying that he was referrign to the average college athlete (at a d1 school) kinda explained a few things for me. I certainly dont mean to denigrate the hard work that many, if not most of them put into getting there, but at the same time, i would think that they would be considered more than slightly above average.

I’m very interested by your results at your PL meet at 19. Did you lift in a teen or junior division? If so do you remember your placing, and the numbers of those around you?

I guess I’ve always considered myself to have average, maybe slightly above average genetics (in terms of strength gains.) I was always disgusted by peopel who would whine about their genetcis, and never allowed that as an excuse. But then again maybe I wasn’t giving myself enough credit for overcoming my genetics. Let me ask you, honest question, what kind of genetics would you think this qualifies for?

Bench:
280@185, 17 years old (won a hs football team bench press competition for that weight class)
290@185, 18 years old
315@180, 19 years old (i THINK this was when i bench my first 315)

Powerclean:
as best I can remember, in hs, it was 275x2, just missing the 3rd, 17 years old

Squat:
I dont even know if you can count this but I “did” a triple with 495 @ 17 years old. I cannot even imagine how comically high they must’ve been. I MIGHT’VE been good for 405

315x10 @183, 18 years old. These I assume were semi-legit, since they were done during preseason at a I-AA. I say semi-legit, because it probably wouldnt’ve passed IPF, but it was good enough for the football coaches (which probably means it woulda been the deepest squat of the day at an IPA meet, haha)

I absolutely BUSTED MY ASS in hs to get these numbers so i really dont think I couldve done much better. If I did now what I did then I would overtrain in a week, but looking back I dont really think I was overtrained. I know I didnt eat enough, but the funny thing is that since I started lifting at 12 I have no idea what my “natural” weight wouldve been. My dad and one of my brothers are both 6’2" 270ish, and my other brother is probably 5’11" 200ish. Then again, I’m 6’1" but probably ahve the slightest build of the 4 of us. I guess its an interesting question given that since so few people actually workout … hard enough … with enough consistency … we really have no idea what “average” genetics are. I dunno, whaddya think?

69

Actually we were NAIA not DI. But we did play in a couple NC’s.

70

Not to rip on RJ24 as he seems like a good guy, I think a lot of his estimation of his genetic capabilities come from the fact that he is based in Alaska (I believe?). There aren’t a whole lot of athletes there.

From his post I’ve gathered that he is a 100m sprinter running in the high 11’s. Here in Texas (and a lot of other southern states) that wouldn’t place in most junior varsity meets, and a 300 power clean is decent for a highschool kid, but not earth shattering or even top of the mark.

71

Another piece of added confusion. It seems some people KBC and Oboile are talking about what the average person can do, then you have others Tveddy and heavythrower talking about what average genetics can allow you to do.

The average person may not be a college level athlete at the moment. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the genetics to be at a college level and bench, squat heavy weights.

We weren’t trying to rip RJ’s athletic ability, he is trying and he has some. We’re just saying you can’t qualify your genetic ability above average because most peoples genetics will allow them to do that if they tried.

72

I understand that, but my point was that I’ve seen several posts by RJ talking about his above average genetics when his performances so far, would place him below average in his chosen sport(granted he is making improvements and started late) at most low level highschool contests.

I do agree with Tveddy though, the average person is in no way comparable to a competitive athlete at any level, whether that be by inferior genetics or just lack of training, its apples vs. oranges and an invalid comparison.

73

[quote]Hanley wrote:

I was loooking at the numbers tveddy posted to and I nearly broke down in tears because if that’s average then I’m not worth shit.

Comparing them to the kings of bench numbers is quite interesting…[/quote]

Haha me too. Americans must be some genetically superior if 400 benches and 500 squats are average in highschool, fuck I’ve only ever seen 3 people ever bench 400 and 1 squat a real 500, and I’ve only seen 3 clean 300, and they certainly wern’t highschool kids.

74

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
Hanley wrote:

I was loooking at the numbers tveddy posted to and I nearly broke down in tears because if that’s average then I’m not worth shit.

Comparing them to the kings of bench numbers is quite interesting…

Haha me too. Americans must be some genetically superior if 400 benches and 500 squats are average in highschool, fuck I’ve only ever seen 3 people ever bench 400 and 1 squat a real 500, and I’ve only seen 3 clean 300, and they certainly wern’t highschool kids. [/quote]

I have to admit we are genetically superior I mean think about it everybody tells us our school systems are the worst our training is the worst our eating habits medical coverage and air quality is the worst. Yet we rule the world… God Bless America

75

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
“Haha me too. Americans must be some genetically superior if 400 benches and 500 squats are average in highschool, fuck I’ve only ever seen 3 people ever bench 400 and 1 squat a real 500, and I’ve only seen 3 clean 300, and they certainly wern’t highschool kids. [/quote]”

I think a lot of it is training history. I know we started training/lifting for athletics in 5th grade, so by the time we were seniors we already had 7 years of heavy squatting and pulling. It’s really not that hard to get a highschool kid over 198 to 500/300/500 if they’ve been in the training program all the way.

Powerlifting in Texas is a highschool sport, so it was really stressed (check out the records on thspa.org), we were a 3A school withabout 400 kids, every member of our offensive line squatted at least 500 in a meet (with z suit and wraps) and benched over 300 and we were pretty average at powerlifting and football (never over 5-5 FB record)(these lifts were actual requirements to make varsity).

Alot of it has to do with you “paradigm of strength” as dave tate put it in an article, Marc Henry was from our area and about 3 years ahead of me in school, after watching him squat 800 with just wraps, 500 didn’t seem like a whole lot.

76

Those lifts were requirements to make varsity? And you were 5-5?

Hmmmm…

77

[quote]KK66 wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
"Haha me too. Americans must be some genetically superior if 400 benches and 500 squats are average in highschool, fuck I’ve only ever seen 3 people ever bench 400 and 1 squat a real 500, and I’ve only seen 3 clean 300, and they certainly wern’t highschool kids. "

I think a lot of it is training history. I know we started training/lifting for athletics in 5th grade, so by the time we were seniors we already had 7 years of heavy squatting and pulling. It’s really not that hard to get a highschool kid over 198 to 500/300/500 if they’ve been in the training program all the way.

Powerlifting in Texas is a highschool sport, so it was really stressed (check out the records on thspa.org), we were a 3A school withabout 400 kids, every member of our offensive line squatted at least 500 in a meet (with z suit and wraps) and benched over 300 and we were pretty average at powerlifting and football (never over 5-5 FB record)(these lifts were actual requirements to make varsity).

Alot of it has to do with you “paradigm of strength” as dave tate put it in an article, Marc Henry was from our area and about 3 years ahead of me in school, after watching him squat 800 with just wraps, 500 didn’t seem like a whole lot.

[/quote]

Ya maybe but some of you guys are making it sound like anyone can hit a 400 bench, most people who workout will never hit it. I know a guy who’s been working out for 2 years and he still can’t bench 135 for one decent rep, and he goes to the gym consistantly.

78

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
KK66 wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
"Haha me too. Americans must be some genetically superior if 400 benches and 500 squats are average in highschool, fuck I’ve only ever seen 3 people ever bench 400 and 1 squat a real 500, and I’ve only seen 3 clean 300, and they certainly wern’t highschool kids. "

I think a lot of it is training history. I know we started training/lifting for athletics in 5th grade, so by the time we were seniors we already had 7 years of heavy squatting and pulling. It’s really not that hard to get a highschool kid over 198 to 500/300/500 if they’ve been in the training program all the way.

Powerlifting in Texas is a highschool sport, so it was really stressed (check out the records on thspa.org), we were a 3A school withabout 400 kids, every member of our offensive line squatted at least 500 in a meet (with z suit and wraps) and benched over 300 and we were pretty average at powerlifting and football (never over 5-5 FB record)(these lifts were actual requirements to make varsity).

Alot of it has to do with you “paradigm of strength” as dave tate put it in an article, Marc Henry was from our area and about 3 years ahead of me in school, after watching him squat 800 with just wraps, 500 didn’t seem like a whole lot.

Ya maybe but some of you guys are making it sound like anyone can hit a 400 bench, most people who workout will never hit it. I know a guy who’s been working out for 2 years and he still can’t bench 135 for one decent rep, and he goes to the gym consistantly. [/quote]

he’s crippled either mentally or physically.

79

yeah, I can think of at least 6 guys we played against that went D1 or D1AA while we had none, and these weren’t large schools. We had a serious lack of speed compared to other teams in the area, we kept the games close but didn’t make enough big plays. Also those weren’t the requirements for everyone, backs and receivers had their own.

I’m sure if a stud player had come along that couldn’t do it, the wouldn’t keep him down just because of low weight room numbers, but we were told that was what was expected of us and just about everyone did it. Football is about more than #'s, but there is no excuse for a 200+ pound 18 year old not to be squatted and dl’ing at least 2xBW or benching 1.5x if they have 5+ years of good training.

Katy (a suburb of Houston) supposedly had every OL benching over 400 a couple years ago (and from watching them play I believe it) but they have 1200+ kids with all of the OL’s over 270

80

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Those lifts were requirements to make varsity? And you were 5-5?

Hmmmm…[/quote]

It seems from what he said that the coaches were very concerned with how much their players lifted. A 5-5 record is what happens when people get too concerned with weightroom numbers. They really don’t matter all that much. Obviously you need some basic strength, but in the end speed and quickness is what it comes down to, even for linemen.

Once you get a guy squatting 1.5-2x bodyweight, there’s really no need to make getting him stronger the primary focus. At that point plyos, speed, and quickness drills should be the main priority.

In a study I mentioned in another thread (I could find the name of it if anyone really wants it), they looked at all the weightroom numbers for every Nebraska football team in recent history.

In every year they looked at, more often than not the guys with the highest squat and bench for their position were 2nd or 3rd string. With the emphasis everyone puts on these lifts you would think it would be the exact opposite.