Posted this in an answer to Thy, but I thought that all of you could benefit from it:
here are several types of ramps:
Regular ramp (like you are doing now)
Small-to-large ramp: make smaller jumps in the beginning (half of what you normally do) and regular jumps at the end. This is to work more on explosive strength AND if you are in a day where you feel that it will take you longer to get activated
Large-to-small ramp: make bigger jumps in the beginning (1.5 to 2 times what you normally do) and smaller jumps at the end. This is to work more on limit strength and should only be performed if you had an activation exercise before OR if you feel in the zone right off the bat
Small ramp: make small jumps during the whole exercise, this is when you want to get more volume done and are not shooting for a PR
Large ramp: make large jumps during the whole exercise, this is when you don’t have much time to train or don’t feel like you can handle a lot of volume. Don’t expect a PR with this approach though
Truncated ramp: just like a regular ramp as far as the size of the jumps, but stop the exercise at the max force set (the max weight with which you still accelerate the weight for all reps). This is best used during a deloading phase or when doing maintenance work
Double ramp: just like a regular ramp, but you perform a weight for two sets before going up. Also good if you want to include more volume or if you are having a hard time getting activated
Extended ramp: perform a regular ramp with 2 or 3 rep numbers. For example, ramp up to your 5RM then continue ramping up to your 3RM
Waved ramp: work up to your max force set, drop down 20-30lbs and ramp up to your max for the selected number of reps
What I find pretty interesting is that over the past 20 years if done all of these ramp types. More intuitively than intelletually deduced.
I believe this very clear description will help me a lot in the gym in the future. In my current training phase I do a lot of double ramps for the extra voulume and am very happy with both steady gains in strenght and weight.
I have a question about the “max force set”. It seems like it can be tricky to indicate that set. What is the reference point, in comparison with which you’re still accelerating? As a broad estimation, is this a load of around 80% x 3 reps or 70-75% x 5 reps?
I will sometimes use the double ramp principle within a regular ramp if a set wasn’t as solid as expected and that I know that I am able to dominate the weight… for example…
135 x 3
155 x 3
175 x 3
195 x 3 (not as solid as I wanted)
195 x 3 (more solid)
215 x 3
235 x 3
I have a question about the “max force set”. It seems like it can be tricky to indicate that set. What is the reference point, in comparison with which you’re still accelerating? As a broad estimation, is this a load of around 80% x 3 reps or 70-75% x 5 reps?
[/quote]
Max force refers to max force for each intensity zone. Each number of reps has its own max force point. For example it might be 175bs when doing 5 reps but 195lbs when doing 3 reps.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I will sometimes use the double ramp principle within a regular ramp if a set wasn’t as solid as expected and that I know that I am able to dominate the weight… for example…
135 x 3
155 x 3
175 x 3
195 x 3 (not as solid as I wanted)
195 x 3 (more solid)
215 x 3
235 x 3[/quote]
CT,
I have done this myself, going to the next weight when your not ready is never a good thing. Sometimes just repeating the set for a one rep set helps as well. It is also a good indicator for your general preparedness for the day, if after 3 sets it still does not feel right, might be a day to de-load or keep it light.
I have a question about the “max force set”. It seems like it can be tricky to indicate that set. What is the reference point, in comparison with which you’re still accelerating? As a broad estimation, is this a load of around 80% x 3 reps or 70-75% x 5 reps?
Max force refers to max force for each intensity zone. Each number of reps has its own max force point. For example it might be 175bs when doing 5 reps but 195lbs when doing 3 reps.
[/quote]
CT,
I know it’s not the number of sets, or reps that is important, that the number of quality reps that actually triggle results is the goal (better 2 sets of 2 perfect reps than one set of 3 grinding reps), but what is the rationale behind doing sets of 3 vs sets of 5 on particular exercises? I used to really concern myself with higher rep work on muscle groups like the soleus, but am now worrying more about an explosive turnaround with no regard for different fiber types. Is fiber type breaksdown an irrelevent concept in light of just focusing on stretch position training?
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Thy. wrote:
Thanks, Thib!
I have a question about the “max force set”. It seems like it can be tricky to indicate that set. What is the reference point, in comparison with which you’re still accelerating? As a broad estimation, is this a load of around 80% x 3 reps or 70-75% x 5 reps?
Max force refers to max force for each intensity zone. Each number of reps has its own max force point. For example it might be 175bs when doing 5 reps but 195lbs when doing 3 reps.
CT,
I know it’s not the number of sets, or reps that is important, that the number of quality reps that actually triggle results is the goal (better 2 sets of 2 perfect reps than one set of 3 grinding reps), but what is the rationale behind doing sets of 3 vs sets of 5 on particular exercises? I used to really concern myself with higher rep work on muscle groups like the soleus, but am now worrying more about an explosive turnaround with no regard for different fiber types. Is fiber type breaksdown an irrelevent concept in light of just focusing on stretch position training?
S[/quote]
I believe the goal is make slow twitch fibers take on the properties of fast twitch fibers by training them as such.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Thy. wrote:
Thanks, Thib!
I have a question about the “max force set”. It seems like it can be tricky to indicate that set. What is the reference point, in comparison with which you’re still accelerating? As a broad estimation, is this a load of around 80% x 3 reps or 70-75% x 5 reps?
Max force refers to max force for each intensity zone. Each number of reps has its own max force point. For example it might be 175bs when doing 5 reps but 195lbs when doing 3 reps.
CT,
I know it’s not the number of sets, or reps that is important, that the number of quality reps that actually triggle results is the goal (better 2 sets of 2 perfect reps than one set of 3 grinding reps), but what is the rationale behind doing sets of 3 vs sets of 5 on particular exercises? I used to really concern myself with higher rep work on muscle groups like the soleus, but am now worrying more about an explosive turnaround with no regard for different fiber types. Is fiber type breaksdown an irrelevent concept in light of just focusing on stretch position training?
S[/quote]
I’ve been wondering this as well. It’s common practice to train legs with high reps - have your quads responded to low reps, high sets, CT?
To get an understanding of the explanations you’ve given above I think it would be helpful to spell out what exactly a “regular ramp” is. You’ve covered this elsewhere but the info is spread out all over the place, so I thought I would add this here. I think I have it right, so correct me if I’m wrong:
I think the following is how CT recommends a regular ramp based on the relative percentage of 1RM:
Warm Up Set
10%1RM X 15-20
Feel Sets
~30%1RM X1
~40%1RM X1
~50%1RM X1
Working Sets
60%1RM X5
66%1RM X5 (~7.5% Increase in weight than previous set)
75%1RM X5 (~7.5% Increase in weight than previous set)
80%1RM X5 (~5% Increase in weight than previous set)
84%1RM X5 (~5% Increase in weight than previous set)
6 86%1RM X5 (~2.5% Increase in weight than previous set)
Continue adding small increments until the set is terminated
An example for the deadlift (assume a 405 deadlift):
Warm Up Set
Bar X 15-20
Feel Sets
135 X1
175 X1
205 X1
Working Sets
240 X5
270 X5
300 X5
320 X5
340 X5
6 350 X5
Continue adding small increments until you can barely get the 5th rep of the set, then the exercise is terminated. Be sure that the increments for the final set(s) are a smaller ramp/increase in weight than the previous increases.
If the first warm up set is 10% of the 1RM, on the bench-press, this would come out to be less than the bar for me. How should I go about performing this set then?
Myself, I use 15% 1RM as my initial warmup. I am not saying this is a better method than 10%, but to illustrate that a little more does not ruin things. I came up with the 15% figure before ever learning of Coach Thibaudeau’s figure, hence the discrepancy.
And where an empty bar is – sadly – somewhat more than that for a given exercise, say overhead presses for me, I use the empty bar and don’t worry about the difference. I will do fewer reps per set, as I end the lightest warmup at a point before becoming fatiguing, so of course this comes sooner with more weight, even though still quite light.
So in your case, I’d say use the empty bar and don’t worry about it.
I think how and what you do with the empty bar is of zero effect to the body. 15 reps, 27 reps - doesn’t matter. Just play with the bar to warm-up the joints and circulate blood a little. I also think it’s ridiculous to use less than the empty bar for anything regardless of your max.
[quote]Thy. wrote:
I think how and what you do with the empty bar is of zero effect to the body. 15 reps, 27 reps - doesn’t matter. Just play with the bar to warm-up the joints and circulate blood a little. I also think it’s ridiculous to use less than the empty bar for anything regardless of your max. [/quote]
I’m no expert but I have to say that I don’t fully agree. The initial warm up set does need to be near 10%, or 15% of your 1rm. I entirely agree with what you said about the purpose of the warm up, “to warm-up the joints and circulate blood a little” and 15 reps with the bar works if your max bench is between 300 and 450. To an extent I suppose the bar is acceptable if your max bench is in the high 200’s as well. But if your bench is below, say, 200 lbs, then I would say 15 reps with the bar is a bad idea. Instead I do something like 3 sets of 5 with the bar, or grab a pair of 10 or 15# DBs for your warm up. Then proceed into feel sets…
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Thy. wrote:
I think how and what you do with the empty bar is of zero effect to the body. 15 reps, 27 reps - doesn’t matter. Just play with the bar to warm-up the joints and circulate blood a little. I also think it’s ridiculous to use less than the empty bar for anything regardless of your max.
I’m no expert but I have to say that I don’t fully agree. The initial warm up set does need to be near 10%, or 15% of your 1rm. I entirely agree with what you said about the purpose of the warm up, “to warm-up the joints and circulate blood a little” and 15 reps with the bar works if your max bench is between 300 and 450. To an extent I suppose the bar is acceptable if your max bench is in the high 200’s as well. But if your bench is below, say, 200 lbs, then I would say 15 reps with the bar is a bad idea. Instead I do something like 3 sets of 5 with the bar, or grab a pair of 10 or 15# DBs for your warm up. Then proceed into feel sets…
[/quote]
You’re kidding right? You can’t start from empty bar set if you’re not benching 300-450 ?
What I’ve been doing for ages since my bench was like 80 kg (180 pounds) is get the bar and do about a few minutes of improvised stuff - a little drop and catch, twitch reps, pauses on the chest, fast reps, slow reps, different grips - just play with it for around 40-50 reps. It couldn’t possibly make a negative impact on my further performance. It’s an empty bar!!!
My military press max right now is 65 kg (145 pounds), what I do before it is a similar “improvised” warm-up set for the shoulders : different snatches, cleans, twitch reps, regular reps, upright rows… for a total of like 30-50 reps as well. That is only a warm-up and never ruined my further sets…
Guys, relax. Its ramping for the workout not revamping the workout. It’s the principle that CT’s talking about that matters. A percent here or there is not really going to make or break you. Especially during the lower percentage part of the ramping. Once you get above the 60% mark I can see it being more important but even then its not the linchpin for the whole workout. Focus less on this and more on how you move the weight and what kind of intensity and mind set you show up to work out with and you’ll be fine. Stop getting caught up on the little things and missing the big picture.