Another Method of Ramping, One More Effective?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

I know there’s been a lot of talk about ramping. For the most part I’ve always ramped main movements let’s say to a 5 rep max, by just starting off with something very light 135 - for 8 reps, then slowly move up in weight, doing anywhere between 5 reps, going down to 3’s when finally I feel I’m ready for my 5 rep all out.

What about when it’s 4x6, 5x5, 4x8 etc - all supposed to be ramped.

Is it MORE beneficial to warmup with not as many reps (doing triples, even singles) and then go for that all out 5-6-8 rep max.

OR

Is it better to do your 4x6 etc whatever it may be.
Do your weight 185x6, 225x6, 275x6, 315x6 for the last all out set.

So I’m curious which one is better compared to the other. For both:
Strength and Size.
I am assuming that the latter is better for strength and size, when the first one posted is better for strength only (limited amount of volume, also meaning weights can be progressed more because not as much fatigue setting in the muscles for next session)

What does everyone think?

2

I think the first method is best.

  1. You don’t know how many warmup sets you’ll need before your top set. If you’re doing 4x6, that means you only have 3 warmup sets and one max set. However, you might need more than 3 warmup sets to prepare your body for that all out set. You see?

  2. Volume means nothing. The amount of volume you need in a given day will vary. You need just enough to sufficiently fatigue your muscles to grow. Anything beyond that will tap into your recovery and do nothing further for growth. Besides, what makes you think that those “warmup” sets did nothing for growth? Your muscles are still lifting the loads, and if you’re lifting fast, you’ll target those type IIb muscle fibres :wink: Its that all out set that fatigues them. Thats the name of the game. The preparatory sets prepare the muscle (and other tissues) and rev up the nervous system, while that final set fatigues the muscles.

Hence, why I threw out set/rep schemes. I suggest you do the same.

3

KINDA agee with forbes. I tend to be stingy on the reps during my warmups and ramping. I’d rather spend more of my energy and more reps at larger weights. The only point of warm-up sets is to prevent injury and to “ramp” your muscles/cns up so that you can train with the heavier weights. So if less reps will get you warmed-up to the point where you aren’t going to hurt yourself, and you are “ramped” then they are better because they cause less fatigue with lighter weights.

Also, I read one of CT’s posts recently, and his definition of “ramping” is a bit different than some of the people here are using it. He refers to it as “ramping” the nervous system. And it doesn’t necessarily mean building up to a max set or weight. It could be something like wave loading, or 1,6.

My personal preferance for warming up and “ramping” is to keep the reps and FATIGUE low. I usually do:

One or two sets of 5, a couple of sets of 3, then down to singles. Then when I feel im up to a weight that will be sufficient for my target reps, i’ll rest bit longer and go for it.

Actually this really wouldn’t be ramping with that definition I used above its more like just warming up.

4

[quote]forbes wrote:
I think the first method is best.

  1. You don’t know how many warmup sets you’ll need before your top set. If you’re doing 4x6, that means you only have 3 warmup sets and one max set. However, you might need more than 3 warmup sets to prepare your body for that all out set. You see?

  2. Volume means nothing. The amount of volume you need in a given day will vary. You need just enough to sufficiently fatigue your muscles to grow. Anything beyond that will tap into your recovery and do nothing further for growth. Besides, what makes you think that those “warmup” sets did nothing for growth? Your muscles are still lifting the loads, and if you’re lifting fast, you’ll target those type IIb muscle fibres :wink: Its that all out set that fatigues them. Thats the name of the game. The preparatory sets prepare the muscle (and other tissues) and rev up the nervous system, while that final set fatigues the muscles.

Hence, why I threw out set/rep schemes. I suggest you do the same.[/quote]

Just a thought forbes. When u setup ur workout routine would u say for shoulders go:

shoulder press BB (5)
front raises (10)
side raises (10)
facepulls (15)
upright rows (10)

and then for each choose a rep range?? (in brackets) and then do as many sets as it takes u to get warm for each one?

cos atm i use that routine ive stated but go

shoulder press BB (5x5)
front raises (3x10)
side raises (3x10)
facepulls (3x15)
upright rows (4x10)

i choose the ramping number of sets to know for next time and each consecutive time. if you dont know how many sets prior to your final set, how do u know whether u should have warmed up more or less?? im sure after doing all the shoulder work before hand i could go straight into heavy upright rows but i choose not to otherwise id do only one set and it would seem pointless??

hm… i think i might have answered my own question?!

sorry for the long post but ONE more thing:

to determine the volume of your workout, would u just increase the number of excercises? or working sets?
so if i were to increase the volume of the ABOVE workout, i could have included shrugs and rear delt raises to increase the volume?? and not increase the number of ramping sets, which would have just increased fatigue. is that how u increase the volume of ur workouts??

5

I’ve done both styles and the first method always allows me to get in more weight for more reps, so I’m going to go with that one.

6

It simplifies things as well as makes them more relevant by dividing things into simply getting warmed up versus actually working with real weights that are ramping up. Rather than dealing with a complex idea of trying to juggle both at the same time and wondering how to optimize that.

The simply getting warmed up part, there need be no worry about it not working out to be enough sets or whatever because you just do what seems right, and it is non-fatiguing enough that it doesn’t matter if it happens to be quite a bit on a particular occasion.

For example it’s typical for me to start with about 15% or 1/7th 1RM and first do one or more sets of 15, 20, or 30: whatever feels right.

Thibaudeau has recommended 10% 1RM. I’ve tried that, on reading where he said that, and that works fine too.

Then I typically do 5 reps with about 1/3 1RM, and 3 reps with 50% 1RM. If the first set of the ramp would be substantially past 60%, maybe then a single at 60% just to get the feel of 60%. Maybe not. Depends on whether it seems to me like it would help.

None of this has resulted in any real draining of resources.

Does that exact formula matter? Not at all. I’m just illustrating the principle of getting warm without this using up energy or resources.

Then on the ramps – the actual work – it’s pretty simple.

Whatever reps I want on the last set, that’s what I’m going to do throughout. How many sets in the ramp? Depends on how many total reps seems to me like a good idea to do. Let’s say I want to do the traditional 5 sets of 5, just as an example.

Now all we have to do is figure where I want to end up, then have an idea of what weight jump I want to use.

In this case – 5 sets – there are 4 increases. So if say I want to jump in weight 10 lb each time, I would start out 40 lb under the planned top weight.

Or let’s say that was the idea but I say to myself, That is starting too heavy. Then I might consider jumping 15 lb per set. OK, 60 lb under the planned top weight sounds good.

There we go.

That doesn’t mean that I can’t end up with a slightly different top weight, or might not choose to add a set, or what have you. But it very easily sets up the plan and I think this is a very typical method, though my explanation is longer than necessary.

7

obviously, bill knows what’s up, but i will offer my thoughts (which i don’t think contradict anything he said).

that last “top” set is great, but lately i feel like i’m doing better (i.e. more work done) by really feeling like the ramping sets are hard work as well.

just using all sets but the last as a mere prelude cheats yourself out of valuable volume and stimulation. maybe no one else has made this mistake, but trying to leave too much in the tank for that last set isn’t the best way imho.

i want to be sweating, a bit tired, and fired up for that last set. then add a bit more weight, and perhaps (this is what i’ve been doing at least) get 5-8 reps, stop short of failure, then get a few more, rest, then do 1 or 2 more. it isn’t DC rest pause because you aren’t really hitting failure on the first 2 portions of the last set, but it’s obviously similar.

then again, i only do one exercise for a bodypart in a workout, so ending up (all told) with 8-12 sets for that exercise allows me to work up gradually, get in some good work, and kill it at the end.

8

Yes, that’s a great point that I failed to make above.

An excellent illustration of this is in powerlifting workouts.

For example, a Louie Simmons protocol is, at 75% 1RM, to do 8 sets of 3 reps. With 60 seconds rest.

I can just imagine many people thinking “BUT HOW CAN THAT BE? That is nowhere near our oh-so-precious ‘failure’! Obviously they could do more reps each set! Or they could have used more weight for those reps! Man that must be a waste of time. Simmons is stupid.”

Well if the sets were done in economy-cruise mode they wouldn’t accomplish much I suppose.

But when you MAKE them hard work by being very forceful, they indeed do the job.

Too many have the idea that if more weight could have been used for the reps actually done, then the set can’t have accomplished anything: therefore, the ramping-up sets for same reps as the top set must accomplish nothing.

Not so, but it does make a difference what you put into it as well.

9

Sorry if i didnt put it right. Let me try again.

Lets say ive warmed up on seated DB shoulder press, usually i would do:

15x25s
8x55s
8x65s
8x75s
8x90s *top working set

then i would go to front raises:

10x20s
10x25s
10x30s *top set

do u think the reason for doing ramping on this is to get ur body ready for that particular exercise, or in science speak, activate the neural pathways for that exercise?? otherwise if you feel like it, jump into ur heavy set and do one set??

10

Volume does make a difference. The ramping up sets add volume, and can add to results even if your top set is for no more reps with no more weight than might be the case with less preparation.

But it also could well be the case that someone might be in no shape, or would be foolish, to do the 8x90’s with much less preparation than what you describe above. So even if there weren’t benefit from the added volume – for example on account of having so much volume someplace else – still there’s the benefit that now it is possible to do the 8x90’s.

I suppose the second aspect is more important than the first, but the first can be important as well.

11

I do it similar to how Bill explained. I separate warmup and working weight, in a way.

Firstly, I have no idea exactly how much weight/reps I’m shooting for when I walk in the gym. I’ll have a general outline, but I change it based on how I feel during warmup. I see it as there being 2 parts to the warmup.

Firstly, physically increasing your temperature, getting blood flowing, joints lubricated etc etc. So I might Squat 95lbs for a few sets of 15ish reps. The other part is getting your body prepared for heavy weight. This is where the ramping comes into play. I’d probably squat 135 for 5ish reps. Then 185 for 2-3. Then all singles up to my working weight.

The work at/above 185 in this example is not meant to fatigue me at all, it’s simply meant to get me used to having progressively heavier weight on my back. I only do a single because it minimizes fatigue as much as possible. Let’s say I get to 315 for a single. I feel great. I feel ultra strong, 315 flies up. My PR single is 355, I’d shoot to break it.

If I’m not feeling super strong, but pretty good, maybe a few sets of 3 with 335. If I just did a bunch of singles last week and know I need to take it easy, do 3-5 sets of 5 with 315ish.

So putting it all together, if I wanted to do 3x5
2x20x95, 5x135, 2x185, 1x225, 1x275, 3x5x315
If I were doing more BBing work, same idea. 3x8 or whatever
2x20x95, 5x135, 1x185, 1x225, 1x275, 3x8x305

In my log, I’d write 3x8x305, everything before that doesn’t matter progression wise. I’m sure it might have contributed to growth in some way, but it doesn’t matter because it has nothing to do with progression.

Some people might read that as doing 9 or 10 sets or whatever but I disagree. Is a single at 50% of your 1rm really a set? No, it’s just technique practice. I did 3 real sets and a bunch of shit that got me ready for those real sets.

I do this with all the powerlifts or variants. Back squat, box squat, bench press, floor press, deadlift, rack pull etc etc

Other stuff I dunno, I just go by feel. Usually ramping with mid-range sets of 5-6 instead of singles, but same idea really.

BB curl, 20xBar, 8x65, 5x95, 10x135 or something like that.

Or random light movements for high reps like lateral raises, front raises, external rotations, reverse flies, face pulls, leg extensions, pullthroughs, whatever. Shit like that. Just grab some weight and do some reps, doesn’t matter how much weight or how many reps as long as I do a bunch.

An interesting question here. Let’s assume one were to use ramp as follows.

Squat - 8x135, 8x185, 8x225, 8x275, 11x315(failure)
I think it’s safe to say doing all those reps before the 315 failure set cost him some reps on his top set. Maybe if he had done less reps on 275 and 225, he could have gotten 13 reps on 315.

What provides more stimulus for growth, doing 2x8 with 225/275, or 2 extra reps with 315? I don’t really know. Obviously the lighter weights still contribute some growth, but how much? Is it enough to offset losing 2 reps off your highest weight? This is all kind of abstract intellectual masturbation anyway, but kind of interesting I guess.

12

That does bring in another point, What about when you want to do straight sets as your work sets – how do you get there?

Which I think is a different technique and personally I don’t call that process of moving up “ramping” but I believe other people do, on account of the weight increasing.

So let’s say I am aiming to do 10 sets of 3 at 85% 1RM.

I would do the warmup part as described before, and then get from the 50% 1RM that was the last warmup weight (3 reps of that) to the 85% by doing singles at 60, 70, and 80%.

Pretty similar to what Papashlapa describes above.

Hepburn was teaching this going who knows how far back, and it may have pre-dated him as well. It doesn’t take more than singles to get this job done. Here, the intent is to NOT have volume with these working up weights and to have it all at the top weight; in the first example I gave, the intent is to move much of the volume to the ramping sets and have only one all-out set.

13

I used to do all my ramped stuff like this:

135x8(+)
225x5
315x3
355x1
405(working weight)x whatever my chosen rep-range was, say, 6-10.
(and perhaps another heavier set if I felt like it, or a slightly lighter set in a different, higher rep range… Or I just left it at one top set)

This obviously focuses more on top-set performance… Warm-ups are set up so that you don’t waste energy on them.

Now, I’ve tried other ways as well, of course, like:

135x12
225x12
315x12
405x7 or whatever

This kind of approach is exhausting as hell on Squats etc… But it does work, too… Usually negatives are not slow at all here, still controlled, but pretty fast or else you’re not going to amount to anything in terms of weight used.

This is similar to the way Ronnie does most of his exercises (he’ll keep going up in weight on power exercises like the deadlift, usually a plate per side per set, and lose reps in the process… I.e. 495x4 might be done after the above… I personally would probably go up in a smaller increment in that case, maybe 435 or 445 and see how many reps I get there)

When keeping reps the same, I sort of prefer thib’s approach of ramping with lower reps… 3-5 mostly, sometimes a few more, and starting “work” sets at roughly 50 up to 60 or 70 percent of 1RM, depending on rep number chosen etc I guess… Then you just go as far as you can while keeping the reps, set number varies, and rest-periods are short except perhaps for the last 2 sets or so.

(warm-up done before this)
255x5
295x5
335x5
375x5
405x5 (smaller weight jump than before, testing the waters perhaps… Could also use regular weight jumps though)
420x5 ← the end for now, barely got all reps perhaps

Here you sort of accumulate volume due to the smaller weight jumps rather than via higher reps…

The thing is… All these variants work. They’re all slightly different and have their own little quirks, but they’ve all been used successfully by many trainees each.

14

I guess it may appear that the original question of “Which is better?” hasn’t been answered in all of this.

That is because in bb’ing and strength training, black-and-white answers like that often don’t exist, or not correctly so anyway.

In many things one can do a straight-up comparison: keep everything else the same, change this one thing, and which way works better?

But in bb’ing or strength training, most times when changing one thing (if it’s a substantial difference) then something else OUGHT to be changed, and failing to do so results in a wrong opinion on the value of the changed thing.

For example, let’s take C_C’s first method and compare it to his last-described method. Which is “better?”

Well, the first method has less volume. This might in itself be a good thing – if other exercises were already pushing overall volume or if at this particular time the lifter would benefit from lower volume – or it could be a lack.

The first method might, all else being kept the same, give inferior results to the last, but maybe the first method will allow doing another exercise and the combination will do more. Or maybe the particular exercise is such a money exercise for the lifter that the greater number of work sets and higher total workload achieved with the last approach is going to make it the more productive at that particular time, even if compared to the first method having another exercise added.

As C_C said, they each have their quirks, they all work: they all fit into overall programs a little differently and have differing good points.

15

I have had good success with ramping up to a 1rm for the day on a given exercise trying to generate as little fatigue as possible working up to that max set by doing mostly singles much like people have mentioned here but then once I reach that top set if I want to get more volume, I drop down to around 85% of that weight and perform a bunch of sets of 3-5reps at that weight with the set amount depending on how my body feels. It seems like the opposite of what most have recommended because as opposed to accumulating the volume working up until the max set I kind of do the reverse and get the extra volume in after I reach the top set when I drop back down. Has anyone else tried this out? I think CT mentioned this at some point although I’m not certain but regardless it’s seems to be effective for me.

16

I think something else to consider is preference. Right now, I’m concerned with top-set performance. That’s how I choose to define progress and effectiveness of my training split. If someone chooses to focus on total stimulus on the muscle, they would probably prefer the second method C_C put up, or Thib’s method, which lends itself to more volume and more TUT.

Exercise set up should also be considered. If I’m choosing to do many exercises for a muscle group, I might choose the first method. If I’m doing only one or two exercises for a muscle group, I might go for the higher volume approach.

17

[quote]ddelmast wrote:
I have had good success with ramping up to a 1rm for the day on a given exercise trying to generate as little fatigue as possible working up to that max set by doing mostly singles much like people have mentioned here but then once I reach that top set if I want to get more volume, I drop down to around 85% of that weight and perform a bunch of sets of 3-5reps at that weight with the set amount depending on how my body feels. It seems like the opposite of what most have recommended because as opposed to accumulating the volume working up until the max set I kind of do the reverse and get the extra volume in after I reach the top set when I drop back down. Has anyone else tried this out? I think CT mentioned this at some point although I’m not certain but regardless it’s seems to be effective for me. [/quote]

Yes, it’s a long-standing (but completely optional) method to have sets at lower weight after the top work weight set.

One traditional way to do that, now not so much in favor it seems, is the double pyramid. For example this might be starting with 10 reps and a lighter weight, adding weight and dropping a rep each set and topping out at say 5 reps; and then working back down in reverse.

Another method, which personally I prefer compared to that, is to just drop straight down to a much lighter weight and knock out a high number of reps for 1 or 2 sets.

If you’d like to see some discussion from Bompa and DiPasquale’s book “Serious Strength Training,” Google has that part excerpted at: Serious Strength Training - Tudor O. Bompa, Mauro G. Di Pasquale, Lorenzo Cornacchia - Google Books

Though there was one member here that took offense to the link on account of its having diagrams, and he felt diagrams or charts were incompatible with weight training for him, and therefore my posting this link called for never reading any of my posts again. So click on the link at your own risk. :wink:

18

[quote]pro-a-ggression wrote:
shoulder press BB (5)
front raises (10)
side raises (10)
facepulls (15)
upright rows (10)

and then for each choose a rep range?? (in brackets) and then do as many sets as it takes u to get warm for each one?[/quote]

Yes. Do as many sets as necessary to reach your top weight. Just make sure those ramp sets aren’t fatiguing.

[quote]
cos atm i use that routine ive stated but go

shoulder press BB (5x5)
front raises (3x10)
side raises (3x10)
facepulls (3x15)
upright rows (4x10)

i choose the ramping number of sets to know for next time and each consecutive time. if you dont know how many sets prior to your final set, how do u know whether u should have warmed up more or less?? im sure after doing all the shoulder work before hand i could go straight into heavy upright rows but i choose not to otherwise id do only one set and it would seem pointless??

hm… i think i might have answered my own question?!

sorry for the long post but ONE more thing:

to determine the volume of your workout, would u just increase the number of excercises? or working sets?
so if i were to increase the volume of the ABOVE workout, i could have included shrugs and rear delt raises to increase the volume?? and not increase the number of ramping sets, which would have just increased fatigue. is that how u increase the volume of ur workouts??[/quote]

With the amount of exercises you have I’d say thats enough. In fact, that might even be a bit much.

But if we’re going with your exercise selection, I’d change the order. Do your compounds first (the press, upright row and facepull) then finish with the iso exercises. For the compounds, do only one top set per exercise, maybe two for the face pulls. If you feel like you need more volume, do more sets of the iso exercises. They don’t stress the body much.

Then again, I’d say if you’re increasing on your main exercises, you’re doing good.

I highly doubt you need more volume.

19

I don’t like to pick a set amount of sets and I don’t like to give myself a target weight to work up to.

I’ll give myself a rep range I want to do on an exercise, ranging from 3-10 reps and have a starting weight.

I’ll then add a set amount of weight each set, then carry on until I hit a max weight for that rep range.

Can’t go wrong doing that.

20

I like something I saw CT point out that he does in another thread:

http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_thibaudeau/what_i_am_doing_now_repost_for_another_thread

The ramping allows you to get to a nice heavy weight, then the straight sets allow you to get more volume in. Using his “perfect rep” technique, I found this gave me a nice incline BB bench workout yesterday (although I did 5x5 ramping instead of 8x3. I still did 5x5 straight sets at about 20 lbs less than my 5rep max)

Edit: Actually, I assumed CT was ramping in those first 8x3 sets, but reading his quote again, I’m not so sure. Could be a straight set after he “ramps” his CNS.