Silver and Steel

I acknowledge this exists, but my four year old daughter plays mommy and it seems to have come from her. Her siblings are old enough that she never saw my wife taking care of a baby. She’s been in daycare since her first year, so I guess seeing all the women employees take care of babies might have done it… I guess they can still find and absorb it even if it’s not in the home, but I really do think it’s in our nature.

My wife is a bit old fashioned but realized it too late. She went to college, competed at the NCAA Division 1 level in track as a heptathlete, got a degree, and wanted to get a job and be independent. Here we are in our early 40s and she wishes she could be a stay-at-home mom. Unfortunately, we’ve built a lifestyle that I can’t afford on my own. Heck, she makes more than me since we work at the same place and she started eight years sooner. Now I get to hear about how she wishes she didn’t have to work which I obviously take personally because I can’t afford to provide that for her. Something in me says I’m supposed to do that, but we accepted the modern roles early in our relationship and became partners instead of bread winner and home maker.

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The identity of a modern woman is a struggle (I say as a man, observing from the outside, and in doing so run risk of “mansplaining”), but when we figure how recent the right to vote has been extended to women, to say nothing of the fact that, until 1988(!) they STILL needed their husband to co-sign before they could get a business loan: it’s a brand new era. And women tend to be the most vicious to other women regarding their lifestyle decisions. Stay at home vs be a professional, breastfeed vs bottlefeed, day care vs home school, etc etc. Men are struggling now too, but I don’t envy women at all.

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It has definitely put us in a strange situation. I won’t dare tell a woman her place is at home. But I acknowledge that’s still what some women want. Doing my best to help out with chores shows me how much work it can be to maintain a house with multiple children. And don’t even mention how much more my wife cares about things than I do. There are so many times when she’s stressed out by the state of things and I’m like, “It’s not really that bad.” I try not to say that, but I definitely think it.

I think it’s a product of her childhood conditioning. Her dad started but rarely finished projects in the house (like full blown remodel type stuff) and her mom is a bit of a hoarder. She grew up in a permanent “under construction” environment that was cluttered. And she hates it.

But that’s a completely different topic altogether.

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Arm day today! Had to be a little careful with my elbow, because the frequency is making it cranky, but it was ok when I picked the right implements and warmed up. We’ll keep an eye on this as we go - it’s a hard hole to dig out of when I let the tendonitis get bad.

Anywho:

  1. Rope PD: 4x10
  2. Reverse PD: 4x10
  3. Decline DB Skullcrusher: 4x10
  4. BB Curl: 3x8
  5. DB Pinwheel Curl: 3x10
  6. EZ Preacher Curl: 3x10
  7. Captain’s Chair: 4 sets
  8. Calves: 3 sets
  9. Assault Bike: 6 minutes of maturity

@T3hPwnisher I think I misrepresented my (admittedly meager) point a little yesterday. I wasn’t talking in the “girls wear dresses and boys play with trucks” vein, because I don’t think that’s the case; I was observing the maturation process. This all comes with, obviously, pretty significant sample, observer and confirmation bias… but I was noting that girls tend to watch mom (whether she bakes or is a CEO) and start doing the task in a “real” sense. My daughter was never “playing” mom… she was mom and expected her brother to respect her authority as such! The boys in the neighborhood, on the other hand, see dad’s responsibilities and recoil - “I’ll never have a boring job like yours!” Any fun stuff I do, they’re ready to play, but in context of 10000 interests. Again, still a nature vs. nurture vs. I’m just assigning meaning that isn’t there. In fact, reading all of this, I may just have spent a paragraph “discovering” that girls hit puberty a couple years earlier than boys - groundbreaking biological analysis!

Edit: I posted all the above before reading the last couple posts. The identity piece, in a modern world, is another interesting (perhaps devastating) story. There’s a good bit of research showing we’re the loneliest we’ve ever been despite being the most connected. As a pack species, I do think it makes logical sense to say humans need both purpose and social validation. That varies between individuals and, likely, sexes. I think the point about women being most vicious to other women is absolutely valid, and somewhat evolutionarily hardwired: if you’re doing differently than me, one of us is failing our “tribe”… and it damn sure ain’t me.

All of this is probably much more declaritive and inflammatory than I intend it.

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You just did about two months’ worth of arm training by my standards!

This has a lot to do with what we observe in the behavior of boys vs girls. Also, boys are dumb. I was a boy, I’m raising a boy, and I teach high school boys and I stand by that statement!

I think your initial observation about boys wanting to play forever is also tied to competitiveness. I’ve learned to not take it so seriously as an adult, but I still want to win when I play games. And that competitiveness expands to life in general. I am by no means an alpha male, but I’d like to think I could be the alpha to like 80% of the population. And by that I mean I could come out on top in a physical altercation to protect my family or someone else. I kind of want to be one of those guys that others look at and think “I wouldn’t want to mess with him.” Part of it is ego and part of it is because I haven’t actually been in any fights! :laughing:

To be the alpha in such a scenario means you probably need to possess some physical abilities. You can see that in a dad who plays sports and works out, but not as easily in Bill from accounting who weighs 130 or 330 pounds. Sorry, Bill, but I wouldn’t bet on you.

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Just gonna throw my two cents in.

Yep. We are. I think it is an attempt to defend your chosen lifestyle. I stayed home with my children because I’m a better mother than you. I chose to be a professional because I’m a modern woman.

I think there is absolutely a level of nature here. Biologically speaking, the only real reason to exist is to pass your genetic code to the next generation. Women are inherently maternal. That being said, some completely lack the instinct and should probably avoid breeding.

I think I would have enjoyed being a stay at home mother. But I think where the problem lies is what happens after that. I am currently staring at (and struggling with) my children being grown. The problem I see is purpose. Had I been a stay at home mother I would be 2 short years from having my only purpose come to an end. Well, maybe not an end, but definitely a serious cut in hours. When your only purpose is raising children what do you do when they no longer need you? I’m not looking for an answer here. Just thinking out loud. Yes, I am aware that it will allow for time with my husband that we will enjoy. Still, there is a definite fear of no longer being useful. Speaking as a woman with no experience being a man, I would assume that at least there is some feeling of being useful because you are the provider. Maybe that’s why women look for more than being a mother? I don’t know. Sorry for the ramble.

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I’ve always wondered that myself. If I see a stay-at-home-mom who has no kids in the house and goes out shopping, goes the gym, spa, massage, etc. then I feel resentment. It’s not my business, but what are they even doing? I call them trophy wives.

In our own circumstance, my wife has shared wanting to be there when school is out, having dinner ready, doing chores around the house including the outdoor stuff (which definitely gets my vote!). She also wishes she could go on all the field trips with the school. We have a big house, so I would like to think my wife would get to keep it the way she wants - clean and clutter free. And that plus laundry can be close to a full-time job in our house.

I did the math before our second kiddo was born and we would have been about $600 short of our monthly expenses with my income alone. It also raised the same question you asked - what does mom do when the kids all go off to school? My wife worked hard and didn’t want to lose her career to stay home for a few years. We wrote it off, but here we are 10 years later and it still comes up. We also added a third kiddo so the clock started over in terms of having a tiny human at home to care for during school hours. I have lots of 20/20 hindsight, but maybe we should’ve pulled the trigger then. I would have been forced to stay in law enforcement but the massive raises they got after I quit would have put us in a good place now and I would have a good retirement benefit waiting for me at a good age.

I used to think that if one parent worked less or not at all, but it caused the other parent to pick up the slack (i.e. mom working 20 hours a week while dad works 60-80 hours), then it wasn’t right. Sure, one takes care of the kids more (gets to or has to depends on your perspective), but the other turns into an absentee. But now that I’ve seen how much pressure my wife puts on herself to be the perfect mom, I’ve changed. She feels like she doesn’t have enough in her to do all the mom things and work. I try to reassure her that she’s doing great, but I’m no help.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but my kids act like I don’t exist at home. If they want a snack, they’ll practically push me out of the way to go ask mom even though I’M RIGHT THERE. They don’t need me most of the time; they definitely choose mom over dad when given the chance. Maybe we are wired in a way that it works if mom stays home and dad is away a bit more working.

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I’ve found that my kids come to me for things they want/ need. They go to my husband for advice and to tell him how there sports are going, or how lifting is going. You know, guy stuff. But mine are boys, so I guess that makes sense. I think most of the time kids know which parent is the one who typically meets their needs. I was the one who fed them from birth so it makes sense that I’m the one they go to for that kind of stuff. I’m would assume it was similar for your family. Plus I’m more willing to do things for them than my husband is. He will tell them to do things for themselves more than I will and they know it. Lol.

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That’s probably valid in my house, too. We came home from work for lunch. It’s parent/teacher conferences all day throughout the district so kids are out of school. Our son had eaten a ‘sandwich’ with only a slice of cheese on it. I got out the leftover ribs and chicken breast and told him to eat some real food. He goes “do I have to make it myself?” Absolutely!

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I think, in this particular conversation, you get a pretty favorable exchange rate: with at least $0.03!

Totally agree! I think this is why we see such high rates of depression in our modern world too, and why exercise (it could really be many hobbies) is so therapeutic - we don’t have to do as much to survive, so we’ve broadly lost our sense of purpose.

I’d typically say “who cares?” but, obviously, you do, and I don’t see you as a generally envious person. Maybe it would bother you in your life if your wife felt that entitled, so you feel it? Or maybe you’re protective of your own wife, who works hard and raises kids, so you’re insulted?

Don’t we all! I think the grass is always greener, too. My wife stayed home, and worried the kids didn’t see her as a working career woman. Now she’s where @BethB is and is starting to want to enter some exciting new field… but we’re also starting to think retirement planning. It’s never “right”.

I feel this. I’m definitely the absentee parent. I try to remember we’re all playing a role in the bigger picture. Maybe my default is a little too much “it is what it is”.

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Who cares is the right response. I don’t know why I care. I try not to, but that doesn’t work in most areas of my life. I guess I’ll blame it on my sense of right and wrong, choices and consequences, etc.

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Just a different response. It’s not like you go around and mug these people, so I don’t think it’s right or wrong. I’m just always interested in how we all have our individual ways of thinking as a default

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I would have made an excellent trophy wife. As long as I am not expected to look like one. But I could totally live the life you described. Wait. Not I couldn’t. That sounds horrendously boring and monotonous. When I have too much time on my hands I’m super lazy. I need a list that needs too be completed with too little time to complete it. Then I get my shit done and am productive.

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When I was toward the end of my time in the army, I got hurt and was in a higher staff job. I’d never worked around women, but this staff included pilot planners and the like so now I did. One of them said something about how she was going to get out and be a trophy wife. I asked if she thought she had the resume for that job. And that is how I learned some folks bantered differently than I’d grown accustomed.

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:rofl::rofl::rofl:. I wish I could have been the proverbial fly on the wall.

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I probably would have laughed and said absolutely not but I’m gonna give it a try anyway :rofl:

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I state at least once a week that my 5 year plan is to be a trophy husband. Wife’s contract goes longer than mine, and I am gonna be an absolute MENACE on her units family facebook page once I’m out of the service lol.

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Whereas I am actually living all your dreams. I am a participation trophy husband.

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OMG! :joy::joy: Maybe that is what I should be. A participation trophy!!!

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I worked after my first child was born and until the due date of number two, then returned to work after a 12 week maternity leave but became pretty quickly pregnant again. When #3 was born it stopped making sense for me to work. My ex-husband owned a business (we owned it, but he ran it), but was the one to have to take time off when the kids were sick because my low-paying job at a Jenny Craig Weight Loss Center didn’t allow for very much flexibility at all. So I pulled out of the workforce.

I loved it. I had four little delights and I delighted in mothering them. I delighted in singing songs and reading to them and tickling them and telling them things when they had questions. As they got older we had words of the week (a “hobbledehoy” is a disreputable youth and a “slugabed” won’t get up in the morning) and then when I got a blackboard and a dictionary of quotations for my birthday one year, quotes of the week (or 3 months; those were busy times). When my youngest was in second grade I realized that I was not going to be okay in the long term if I didn’t make changes, worrying the same worries @BethB does. How can they be the center of my world when I am no longer the center of theirs? So back to school I went, which was perfect for the in-between years, when they needed me to be flexible in case they were sick or had a concert during the day.

Being home with school-age children messed with me in terms of purpose, and I can remember the exact moment I knew I needed either a job or to finish college. I was talking to my husband in the kitchen and he was eating a pretzel. A piece of it broke off and fell, and we both watched it do so. After he finished whatever he was saying, he walked away, stepping on the pretzel as he went. I didn’t get angry or resentful that time. I just thought “I need to be doing things that are more important than a crushed pretzel. I need to have bigger things to think about. I can’t keep being someone who cleans up after five people who have better things to do than clean.”

It’s worked out well. Now I encourage and teach and nurture people for a living. They get the quotes that I still love to share. And my kids get a mom who is available, but not clingy or needy. In fact, I worry that I’m TOO emotionally self-sufficient now.

So anyway, I know the conversation has moved on, but I thought I’d add my view. I can see @Frank_C’s irritation with the SAHM lunch set, but I think for me it’s more bewildering than annoying that someone wants to live such a shallow life. I have a friend from when my kids were little whose husband cheated on her, which ended the marriage (he’s with the woman still). We were SAHMs together. She has a teaching degree, but has not renewed her license, instead trying to do side-hustle type jobs. SAHM jobs, basically. There are no pics of her online and she lives in Texas, so I don’t know what she looks like now, but back then she was not at all in shape, but wants to “get my wellness coaching business off the ground.” This is years now, and basically she’s into essential oils. We talk every couple of years, and every couple of years I listen and boggle that she can let herself fall from affluence into poverty and feel A) okay with it, and B) like it’s still the ex-husband’s fault, 10+ years post-divorce. Where is your PRIDE? Where is your GRIT?

All of that said, however, I feel ready today to take a stab at being a SAHM who lunches. Because I’m sick of the alarm clock and it all interferes with my workout schedule. I would get a lot more steps without all this JOB bullshit!

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