I did another chest and delt workout today because bro.
DB Incline
40/10
70/8
90/4
105/6
95/6
90/8
90/8
Smith Lowish Incline
1s pause at bottom
135/6
155/12
165/10
175/6
135/12
HS Press
1pps/8 + 5 partials
DB OHP
1s pause on shoulders
50/8 x 2
Giant Set 2 rounds:
This was definitely not a burpee day
Thats some big boy weight for inclines. Nice
Just to clarify, it’s never a burpee day.
Does this mean that when looking at weekly volume you’d discount bench etc as half tricep sets?*
Edit: does this also play into your hands on your bicep/ tricep giant sets you did ( please still be doing them again) as they provide more effective reps over less time/ sets?
Love an arm training discussion.
First, I don’t take any of this as arguing and it’s even fine as it is. None of this is exactly settled science and I don’t think any of our opinions is the authority. I’m sure the rest of this will just be a ramble.
To my earlier point, presses and pulls don’t really target the long heads of the triceps and biceps, respectively.
So this means those compound lifts “count,” but I don’t think it’s as simple as saying it’s a half set or whatever. Maybe you worked half the muscle group.
Now, you can definitely make cases against me. I’ll list a couple, but not go super deep in counterpoints:
Obviously you can get strong on compound lifts, avoid direct arm work, and still get big arms. Let’s just assume we’re talking about maximally developing your arms and I think we’re good here.
Certainly I understand the simplicity in saying “that was half a set,” and then it makes formulae relatively easy. As above, that works as a jumping off point, but you’ll have to dig a little deeper to blow out your shirt sleeves.
I agree arm work doesn’t need as many direct sets as the above, which helps us “fit” the 10-/0 set recommendations from papers if we count the compound movements as partial sets. I think it’s more likely they are simply smaller muscles with less strength potential. Not to mention, all the work goes to the target muscle in a curl; not so for the chest in a bench.
I also get the point that we can look at any anatomy chart and realize no muscle could ever act in isolation; the skeleton just won’t move that way. By the same token, let’s look for two seconds more and realize each muscle has its own unique insertion points; we do have to train those.
Now, on the other hand, trying to count half sets and the like creates some weird problems. If I do a dip, was that also only half a set for my chest? What if I use a close-grip bench on my arm day but a floor press on my chest day? Did I cancel everything out and do 0 sets? Honestly, I think Dante Trudel figured this one out by just saying to pick moves that bias your weak points while still working your intent. Like if you have bad triceps, do dips for a main chest movement. I recognize the irony in appealing to Doggcrapp to justify isolation movements.
So what’s my point?
Not specific to this discussion, but it touches it: I really believe in using the big barbell lifts to get stronger and “safer” movements to get bigger. So a push day could absolutely start with bench, to get all those muscles stronger, then I go to DB or machine presses for chest, and pressdowns or skullcrushers for triceps to get my hard reps in and get bigger.
In terms of the giant sets, what I think you’re saying is exactly how I use them. A lot of times I (well, usually others…) don’t like to train arms. We’ve got other goals, other stuff to do, etc. Like if I have a ton of fat to lose or I want to run my first 5k or whatever, does it make sense to use my limited time on an arm day? Probably not, but I may still want/ be motivated by some better arms. The giant sets can get you those 9 sets I mentioned above really quickly and truly take nothing out of you. I kind of have a 10-15 minute rule with add-on stuff: if there’s something you like to do, but it’s not in the plan, you get 15 minutes to do it; how much damage can you do in 15 minutes?
What are your thoughts?
Went and did legs again this morning after some gymstagram filming. I just did them two days ago (slow negatives and circuits), so there’s really 3 thought processes here:
Anyway:
Lying leg curls
These were superset with the squats (next) for the warmups and first 3 sets
1s pause at top and bottom
Couple warmups, then 3 x 8
Squats
Definitely was fatigued
45/10
135/10
185/10
225/10
275/8
315/6
315/6
Leg extension
Added a band here - kinda cool
3 sets of 8-15. On the last set I did a double drop, first I dropped the band and repped out, then a plate and repped out
GHR
Also with a band. Very explosive. Liked this one
3 x 6
Leg press
4pps/16 + 3pps/~15 + 2pps/~15 (I don’t remember rep counts, but it sucked)
I love everything about all three of those!
Thanks man!
I just did abs and some more easy cardio; now to teach a clinic and then take the wife and kids on a mini-vacation… so I’m sure this weight loss journey ain’t about to improve.
This adds into an opinion I re-adopted recently: Train arms first, before compound lifts. It better trains the arms (because they’re fresh) and also helps isolate other muscles on compound lifts (does terrible things to your PRs though).
Agree with all of these, although the further I get into Failure training - the more I’m toning back the number of sets.
You mean like a WOD, or like letting me helicopter spin in a fine china shop? Actually, the answer is about the same.
Now that’s interesting. I guess an added benefit is you can still push hard after arms; the same may not be true after something heavier.
For sure - it’s individual. I just know what I’ve always needed.
It’s just a hypothetical I pose to my wife…
Was going to type my thoughts last night and ended up watching some Seal Team and drinking a glass of red instead.
So i’ll start my response by saying that I’ve added my most mass and muscle in training over the last 5ish years even though i’ve been training for just over 20 ears now (wow i feel old). I’d also say that i am still learning and have changed by views on things quite a bit over that time as well (which is a positive thing i’d say).
So with that i’d 100% agree that you need to train arms directly to grow them to their potential (unless you are in a small lucky majority).
I’d also agree that they need less volume to grow, but personally i’m not sure on what that is for me. I’d also add from a personal point of view looking back at my training) that i’m a consistent trainer but i don’t train arms consistently or with a consistent volume etc.
I’d also like to counter this specifically for triceps. After some pressing sessions my triceps are fried when i get to my direct tricep work whereas i have never had that from a back/ biceps point of view.
I’d also add that my long head of my tricep grew massively (from what it was ) when i actually moved from 531 (with no tricep isolation work) to a BB programme with proper direct tricep work. That seemed to be a one off growth though.
All good discussion. I’ve probably got more to say but need to get back to work!
I dropped off for a few days! I’ll call @rugby_lifting the thread killer. I jest - I’m always happy to talk arm training.
Anyway, I think we’re mostly in alignment here: triceps get more complete work out of your compounds than do biceps. Long head is the biggest gap for both.
I had quite a few days totally off, which was enjoyable and I definitely leaned out a bit. I’ve been playing with a lot of CT’s training days lately, but not really committed to a program. There are a few reasons (I’m way into lists lately):
So, in no order, for updates. The kids were out last week so we took a long weekend and went to an indoor water park, an escape room, and a drive-thru safari. It was all pretty fun. My son didn’t like the water park at all (he’s not a “thrill” kind of kid), but really enjoyed the escape room and the safari; he fed all the yaks and camels and stuff with no fear whatsoever. My daughter likes everything, so no worries there.
All my HSMs included not a fraction of “H”… so we’ll say they were 2/3 on-plan? They were definitely solid meals, that I can promise you.
In terms of diet, I didn’t gain any weight doing that (but certainly didn’t lose). I have visibly leaned out when “dry” (like we discussed in @T3hPwnisher’s V-diet thread), but I don’t believe I’m simply a shredded 205 lbs. so I’m just not being disciplined enough on this front. On the other hand, I am getting outstanding pumps in the gym and feeling strong. I don’t go through many phases anymore (I’m 41 and been doing this for nearly 3 decades with layoffs only for deployments/ injuries) where I feel I’m actually driving real muscular growth, so I don’t think I’m going to stress - I’m just going to enjoy this. If the V-Diet set this up, whether or not I lose any fat, that’s a win I can’t turn down. You’ll just all have to be disappointed in the “transformation” pictures… my wife doesn’t have a monopoly on that emotion.
What I’ve been playing with is a Thib specialization on chest/ arms. It’s a little heavy work and then a lot of misery work. I’m not going to write it all out, I don’t think, because it would drive me nuts. We’ll get the gist, though. My cardio has been backpack dog walks of about 40-60 minutes a day. I throw some incline treadmill in there when it’s cold and it’s better than calf raises. I do need to look for more opportunity to push a sled, etc. I’m also trying to be a little more careful about burning out/ doing too much, but (now that I’m actually feeling a pump) I’ll let the pump be a guide there.
Anyway, today:
Incline BB
Lots of sets working up, then 205 x 6 and 165 x 15 or so
Giant sets of cable flyes, pec flex/ pose, DB incline flyes
Smith shoulder press (no back) working up and then a back-off
Giant sets of DB laterals, DB rear delt, swings, and band holds
Supersets of preacher curls and DB incline curls
Mechanical dropsets of hammer curls
At no point did I feel like not doing this/ go flat, so my head stayed in it - I’ll keep using this as a gauge for now.
I’m sure there’s lots more, but I should probably actually work.
There’s a LOT of writing out there that speaks to the value of cyclical fasting and feasting as it relates to performance. I think you’re organically experiencing it. Velocity Diet compliance for the majority of the time followed by these moments of living life puts your body in a state wherein when it receives this nutrition, it’s like rocket fuel. Compared to when your body is in a constant state of receiving these super-nutrients and just comes to take them for granted. Similar to a caffeine tolerance, or our other discussions regarding how you can “live” off fast food for years and not notice it, but when you eat clean for a prolonged period of time and come back to it, it hits you like a bomb.
And even if none of that is true, I choose to believe it, because when I’m living life I can also say I’m getting jacked too, haha.
That’s the real key…
I totally agree with you, though. I typically think of it in terms of longer periods or goal attainment, if that makes sense. Like after a long diet where I’ve actually got myself below 10% (or whatever passes on the Internet these days; basically I can see not just my toes but also my kneecaps), then I eat for several weeks and crush it in the gym.
This time, I’m not particularly lean by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I’m still a bit heavy. I’m getting every bit the impact I would from a post-diet rebound, without the initial achievement. On the other hand, I’m also not going really nuts with the food - I went a bit too big on my meals, and I’ll have one scoop of Surge during the work out, but I wasn’t housing pizza and cheeseburgers all days (and I’ve certainly been there).
I refuse to admit that I’m trending toward moderation, but it’s certainly looking that way on paper with the volume vs. intensiveness workouts and the moderate deficit vs. moderate surplus eating. Gross - I hate myself just writing that.
When we’ve lived in extremes for so long, pursuing moderation is the most extreme thing we can do.
That was absolutely amazing - total mindshift; thank you
Hell yeah dude! So glad I could. I’m definitely going through my own phase of “extreme moderation”. I’m too good at 0 to 60: not so good at cruising.
Speaking of all this moderation and getting old, I forgot yesterday’s debacles in my updates!
It started with me slipping and falling on the stairs when I got up. I‘ve done this a couple times, and it doesn’t get less embarrassing when my wife comes to see if I died.
Then I somehow broke a crown (from a tooth I broke like 20 years ago) while eating turkey chili. I don’t even know how that happens - it’s as soft as pudding. I’m sure it happened earlier and just came loose at dinner, but it was my wife’s turn to cook so obviously we’ll blame her.
Wow this is kind of coinci"dental" (eye roll). I bit into an apple at work the other day and the two front teeth of my partial snapped right off. I busted them out (and several others) about 15 years ago. I had to walk around work for a bit missing my two front teeth until I could get ahold of my dentist. I’m old. And I have no one to blame but myself; I was holding the apple…
That’s an absolute winner.
You’d think the Bible would be warning enough, it’s right there in the first chapter, but you had to go and run with the devil.
Mine is at least at the back - you can’t tell that I look like a retired crocodile back there; it just feels funny.