Silver and Steel

Training Training Logs
3227

you clearly haven’t seen my fully sick full ROM rows. LOL

1 Like
3228

I did another chest and delt workout today because bro.

  • 5m incline treadmill

  1. DB Incline
    40/10
    70/8
    90/4
    105/6
    95/6
    90/8
    90/8

  2. Smith Lowish Incline
    1s pause at bottom
    135/6
    155/12
    165/10
    175/6
    135/12

  3. HS Press
    1pps/8 + 5 partials

  4. DB OHP
    1s pause on shoulders
    50/8 x 2

  5. Giant Set 2 rounds:

  • Cable lateral raise
  • DB Rear Delt top 1/2
  • DB Rear Delt bottom 1/2
  1. Machine Shoulder
    1 double drop set
  • 15m incline treadmill

This was definitely not a burpee day

6 Likes
3229

Thats some big boy weight for inclines. Nice

1 Like
3230

Just to clarify, it’s never a burpee day.

3 Likes
3231

Does this mean that when looking at weekly volume you’d discount bench etc as half tricep sets?*

  • hopefully that makes sense. Reading online, a lot of coaches use exercises like bench as 0.5 of a tricep exercise (set) for weekly volume. In theory you are discounting that or saying it might be worth less. So in theory you’d need the full 8-10 weekly sets of tricep/ bicep isolation exercises to grow the guns. Not arguing, just trying to learn from a guy who has to have a concealed weapons license when you put a long sleeve shirt on.

Edit: does this also play into your hands on your bicep/ tricep giant sets you did ( please still be doing them again) as they provide more effective reps over less time/ sets?

Love an arm training discussion.

1 Like
3232

First, I don’t take any of this as arguing and it’s even fine as it is. None of this is exactly settled science and I don’t think any of our opinions is the authority. I’m sure the rest of this will just be a ramble.

To my earlier point, presses and pulls don’t really target the long heads of the triceps and biceps, respectively.

So this means those compound lifts “count,” but I don’t think it’s as simple as saying it’s a half set or whatever. Maybe you worked half the muscle group.

Now, you can definitely make cases against me. I’ll list a couple, but not go super deep in counterpoints:

Obviously you can get strong on compound lifts, avoid direct arm work, and still get big arms. Let’s just assume we’re talking about maximally developing your arms and I think we’re good here.

Certainly I understand the simplicity in saying “that was half a set,” and then it makes formulae relatively easy. As above, that works as a jumping off point, but you’ll have to dig a little deeper to blow out your shirt sleeves.

I agree arm work doesn’t need as many direct sets as the above, which helps us “fit” the 10-/0 set recommendations from papers if we count the compound movements as partial sets. I think it’s more likely they are simply smaller muscles with less strength potential. Not to mention, all the work goes to the target muscle in a curl; not so for the chest in a bench.

I also get the point that we can look at any anatomy chart and realize no muscle could ever act in isolation; the skeleton just won’t move that way. By the same token, let’s look for two seconds more and realize each muscle has its own unique insertion points; we do have to train those.

Now, on the other hand, trying to count half sets and the like creates some weird problems. If I do a dip, was that also only half a set for my chest? What if I use a close-grip bench on my arm day but a floor press on my chest day? Did I cancel everything out and do 0 sets? Honestly, I think Dante Trudel figured this one out by just saying to pick moves that bias your weak points while still working your intent. Like if you have bad triceps, do dips for a main chest movement. I recognize the irony in appealing to Doggcrapp to justify isolation movements.

So what’s my point?

  • If you want to maximally develop your arms, you have to train them directly
  • You can bias movements however you want, so creating a formula of what percentage of a muscle a set counts for is a bridge too far for me
  • It’s fine that arms take fewer sets. It’s always been 9-12 for me
  • Compound lifts do very well to train your triceps, as part of a complete program
  • You won’t train your triceps long head without extension movements
  • You won’t train your biceps long head without flexion (curls); the short head is not even maximally contracted in pulls (unless you’re choosing to not train your back with them)

Not specific to this discussion, but it touches it: I really believe in using the big barbell lifts to get stronger and “safer” movements to get bigger. So a push day could absolutely start with bench, to get all those muscles stronger, then I go to DB or machine presses for chest, and pressdowns or skullcrushers for triceps to get my hard reps in and get bigger.

In terms of the giant sets, what I think you’re saying is exactly how I use them. A lot of times I (well, usually others…) don’t like to train arms. We’ve got other goals, other stuff to do, etc. Like if I have a ton of fat to lose or I want to run my first 5k or whatever, does it make sense to use my limited time on an arm day? Probably not, but I may still want/ be motivated by some better arms. The giant sets can get you those 9 sets I mentioned above really quickly and truly take nothing out of you. I kind of have a 10-15 minute rule with add-on stuff: if there’s something you like to do, but it’s not in the plan, you get 15 minutes to do it; how much damage can you do in 15 minutes?

What are your thoughts?

4 Likes
3233

Went and did legs again this morning after some gymstagram filming. I just did them two days ago (slow negatives and circuits), so there’s really 3 thought processes here:

  1. Screw it (most important)
  2. I don’t think I went hard enough the other day, so wanted to see what fatigue I built (it was there!)
  3. I am not losing weight with any speed, so we must punish our body into submission (I don’t care if this isn’t how it works)

Anyway:

  • 10m incline treadmill

  1. Lying leg curls
    These were superset with the squats (next) for the warmups and first 3 sets
    1s pause at top and bottom
    Couple warmups, then 3 x 8

  2. Squats
    Definitely was fatigued
    45/10
    135/10
    185/10
    225/10
    275/8
    315/6
    315/6

  3. Leg extension
    Added a band here - kinda cool
    3 sets of 8-15. On the last set I did a double drop, first I dropped the band and repped out, then a plate and repped out

  4. GHR
    Also with a band. Very explosive. Liked this one
    3 x 6

  5. Leg press
    4pps/16 + 3pps/~15 + 2pps/~15 (I don’t remember rep counts, but it sucked)

  • 20m incline treadmill
7 Likes
3234

I love everything about all three of those!

1 Like
3235

Thanks man!

I just did abs and some more easy cardio; now to teach a clinic and then take the wife and kids on a mini-vacation… so I’m sure this weight loss journey ain’t about to improve.

1 Like
3236

This adds into an opinion I re-adopted recently: Train arms first, before compound lifts. It better trains the arms (because they’re fresh) and also helps isolate other muscles on compound lifts (does terrible things to your PRs though).

Agree with all of these, although the further I get into Failure training - the more I’m toning back the number of sets.

You mean like a WOD, or like letting me helicopter spin in a fine china shop? Actually, the answer is about the same.

1 Like
3237

Now that’s interesting. I guess an added benefit is you can still push hard after arms; the same may not be true after something heavier.

For sure - it’s individual. I just know what I’ve always needed.

It’s just a hypothetical I pose to my wife…

1 Like
3238

Was going to type my thoughts last night and ended up watching some Seal Team and drinking a glass of red instead.

So i’ll start my response by saying that I’ve added my most mass and muscle in training over the last 5ish years even though i’ve been training for just over 20 ears now (wow i feel old). I’d also say that i am still learning and have changed by views on things quite a bit over that time as well (which is a positive thing i’d say).

So with that i’d 100% agree that you need to train arms directly to grow them to their potential (unless you are in a small lucky majority).

I’d also agree that they need less volume to grow, but personally i’m not sure on what that is for me. I’d also add from a personal point of view looking back at my training) that i’m a consistent trainer but i don’t train arms consistently or with a consistent volume etc.

I’d also like to counter this specifically for triceps. After some pressing sessions my triceps are fried when i get to my direct tricep work whereas i have never had that from a back/ biceps point of view.

I’d also add that my long head of my tricep grew massively (from what it was ) when i actually moved from 531 (with no tricep isolation work) to a BB programme with proper direct tricep work. That seemed to be a one off growth though.

All good discussion. I’ve probably got more to say but need to get back to work!

1 Like
3239

I dropped off for a few days! I’ll call @rugby_lifting the thread killer. I jest - I’m always happy to talk arm training.

Anyway, I think we’re mostly in alignment here: triceps get more complete work out of your compounds than do biceps. Long head is the biggest gap for both.

I had quite a few days totally off, which was enjoyable and I definitely leaned out a bit. I’ve been playing with a lot of CT’s training days lately, but not really committed to a program. There are a few reasons (I’m way into lists lately):

  1. I don’t care what I do right now. I have no training goals, so I just want to work.
  2. I think he’s an incredibly smart dude, so I trust whatever he puts out there.
  3. Flip side: I don’t totally buy into everything he does as a matter of course, so it’s a great learning opportunity for me.
  4. I’m getting nowhere doing my same old, which really falls into the “I’ve evolved past it” conversation
  5. It’s a lot lower volume & intensiveness (by that I mean as a combination; the days vary - some are high volume and some are intense), which is really what I need to tackle
  6. I’m still a big believer in specialty blocks (I think of it as Muscle & Fitness periodization): 4-6 weeks where you get after a goal and then move on; I am kind of playing with that here

So, in no order, for updates. The kids were out last week so we took a long weekend and went to an indoor water park, an escape room, and a drive-thru safari. It was all pretty fun. My son didn’t like the water park at all (he’s not a “thrill” kind of kid), but really enjoyed the escape room and the safari; he fed all the yaks and camels and stuff with no fear whatsoever. My daughter likes everything, so no worries there.

All my HSMs included not a fraction of “H”… so we’ll say they were 2/3 on-plan? They were definitely solid meals, that I can promise you.

In terms of diet, I didn’t gain any weight doing that (but certainly didn’t lose). I have visibly leaned out when “dry” (like we discussed in @T3hPwnisher’s V-diet thread), but I don’t believe I’m simply a shredded 205 lbs. so I’m just not being disciplined enough on this front. On the other hand, I am getting outstanding pumps in the gym and feeling strong. I don’t go through many phases anymore (I’m 41 and been doing this for nearly 3 decades with layoffs only for deployments/ injuries) where I feel I’m actually driving real muscular growth, so I don’t think I’m going to stress - I’m just going to enjoy this. If the V-Diet set this up, whether or not I lose any fat, that’s a win I can’t turn down. You’ll just all have to be disappointed in the “transformation” pictures… my wife doesn’t have a monopoly on that emotion.

What I’ve been playing with is a Thib specialization on chest/ arms. It’s a little heavy work and then a lot of misery work. I’m not going to write it all out, I don’t think, because it would drive me nuts. We’ll get the gist, though. My cardio has been backpack dog walks of about 40-60 minutes a day. I throw some incline treadmill in there when it’s cold and it’s better than calf raises. I do need to look for more opportunity to push a sled, etc. I’m also trying to be a little more careful about burning out/ doing too much, but (now that I’m actually feeling a pump) I’ll let the pump be a guide there.

Anyway, today:

  1. Incline BB
    Lots of sets working up, then 205 x 6 and 165 x 15 or so

  2. Giant sets of cable flyes, pec flex/ pose, DB incline flyes

  3. Smith shoulder press (no back) working up and then a back-off

  4. Giant sets of DB laterals, DB rear delt, swings, and band holds

  5. Supersets of preacher curls and DB incline curls

  6. Mechanical dropsets of hammer curls

At no point did I feel like not doing this/ go flat, so my head stayed in it - I’ll keep using this as a gauge for now.

I’m sure there’s lots more, but I should probably actually work.

8 Likes
3240

There’s a LOT of writing out there that speaks to the value of cyclical fasting and feasting as it relates to performance. I think you’re organically experiencing it. Velocity Diet compliance for the majority of the time followed by these moments of living life puts your body in a state wherein when it receives this nutrition, it’s like rocket fuel. Compared to when your body is in a constant state of receiving these super-nutrients and just comes to take them for granted. Similar to a caffeine tolerance, or our other discussions regarding how you can “live” off fast food for years and not notice it, but when you eat clean for a prolonged period of time and come back to it, it hits you like a bomb.

And even if none of that is true, I choose to believe it, because when I’m living life I can also say I’m getting jacked too, haha.

2 Likes
3241

That’s the real key…

I totally agree with you, though. I typically think of it in terms of longer periods or goal attainment, if that makes sense. Like after a long diet where I’ve actually got myself below 10% (or whatever passes on the Internet these days; basically I can see not just my toes but also my kneecaps), then I eat for several weeks and crush it in the gym.

This time, I’m not particularly lean by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I’m still a bit heavy. I’m getting every bit the impact I would from a post-diet rebound, without the initial achievement. On the other hand, I’m also not going really nuts with the food - I went a bit too big on my meals, and I’ll have one scoop of Surge during the work out, but I wasn’t housing pizza and cheeseburgers all days (and I’ve certainly been there).

I refuse to admit that I’m trending toward moderation, but it’s certainly looking that way on paper with the volume vs. intensiveness workouts and the moderate deficit vs. moderate surplus eating. Gross - I hate myself just writing that.

1 Like
3242

When we’ve lived in extremes for so long, pursuing moderation is the most extreme thing we can do.

3243

That was absolutely amazing - total mindshift; thank you

1 Like
3244

Hell yeah dude! So glad I could. I’m definitely going through my own phase of “extreme moderation”. I’m too good at 0 to 60: not so good at cruising.

1 Like
3245

Speaking of all this moderation and getting old, I forgot yesterday’s debacles in my updates!

It started with me slipping and falling on the stairs when I got up. I‘ve done this a couple times, and it doesn’t get less embarrassing when my wife comes to see if I died.

Then I somehow broke a crown (from a tooth I broke like 20 years ago) while eating turkey chili. I don’t even know how that happens - it’s as soft as pudding. I’m sure it happened earlier and just came loose at dinner, but it was my wife’s turn to cook so obviously we’ll blame her.

2 Likes
3246

Wow this is kind of coinci"dental" (eye roll). I bit into an apple at work the other day and the two front teeth of my partial snapped right off. I busted them out (and several others) about 15 years ago. I had to walk around work for a bit missing my two front teeth until I could get ahold of my dentist. I’m old. And I have no one to blame but myself; I was holding the apple…

1 Like