[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
bikemike wrote:
I’ve browsed through these posts quickly, and I still haven’t seen WHY powerlifting suits, shirts, whatever, help. I would like to know the science behind it.
Different thread?[/quote]
No. Same thread. You asked “What’s the point?” same thing as asking why is it necessary.
It would appear that the thread was started with a rhetorical question, and no answer from any body will suffice.
[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
It would appear that the thread was started with a rhetorical question, and no answer from any body will suffice.
[/quote]
Whatever dude, my first post was sincere:
I’m hoping someone here can present a succinct argument to explain it to me…
Of course, I posed the question while making my initial viewpoint clear, but I welcomed and indeed requested that someone enlighten me.
[quote]Matthew9v9 wrote:
Try being civil about it and not condescending. Reread your original post and ask yourself if your snide tone was necessary. [/quote]
I didn’t mean to be condescending. If you’d like to see what a post of mine that has 'tude looks like, check out the politial forums prior to the election…I had plenty of condescending remarks to go around!
This post here was sincere…sorry to burst your oh-so-sensitive bubble…
This comment:
Shed some light on my poor, ignorant soul.
may have been interpreted as condescending, but it wasn’t meant to be; and I’m sorry that the post or this comment put you on the defensive so quickly…it was really meant to be a simple invitation to present an argument that might persuade me.
And by the way: WHY THE FUCK MUST I SPEND MORE TIME HERE DECLARING MY SINCERITY THAN DISCUSSING THE POINT OF THE THREAD?! Thicken your skin up fellas and discuss the issue if you have something to say about it…if you’re incapable of civil discourse about a rather light and meaningless topic, then just click on!
[quote]bikemike wrote:
Right Side Up wrote:
bikemike wrote:
I’ve browsed through these posts quickly, and I still haven’t seen WHY powerlifting suits, shirts, whatever, help. I would like to know the science behind it.
Different thread?
No. Same thread. You asked “What’s the point?” same thing as asking why is it necessary.[/quote]
Sorry man, I thought you were asking how they worked – i.e., the science behind how they improved lifts…oh, wait…
rock on, bro.
[quote]Dq wrote:
How many times do poeple have to say it.We use them to compete against others in our sport. Its nothing to do with ego unless you never go to a meet. some people play softball, some drag race, some, play golf, some powerlift. why would anyone go lift raw and keep getting crushed ever meet. My shoulder used to hurt like hell before i got a single ply shirt, Am i suppost to quit lifting because you dont like shirts. get a life.[/quote]
That is very true…don’t find the cause of the shoulder problem and fix it, better to mask it.
[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
I wouldn’t mind hearing their take on this. I am seriously considering competing and would appreciate as much constructive input as possible.
[/quote]
So you’ve never competed, yet you can’t wait for the opportunity to pounce on anyone with a different opinion than you? Oy.
[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
Man, I guess my next question would be:
Why the hell does everyone get so freakin’ touchy about this?
I really don’t give a crap what anyone else does. My questions were perfectly legitimate and I thought someone might be able to see where I was coming from – if I was missing something, I thought they might be able to articulate the purpose or help me see the matter in a different light. Let’s just say articulation is in high demand, round here.
The only interesting thing I heard was that it helps prevent injury…this doesn’t explain, however, why lifters use double, triple, quadruple, and quintsexseptfuckinuple ply suits.
The plethora of comments regarding it being a necessity to compete warrants no response other than “no shit sherlock.”
Then those who say things like “they can do whatever they want to do…why do you care…get a life…” are simply responding over-defensively, missing the point of the question, and falsly inferring that I have a problem with suits in the first place.
This thread could die for all I care, I just thought someone might be able to make a legit argument for suits.
*Sasquatch – you’re quite welcome, I’m glad you enjoyed the book.[/quote]
You want to know specific reasons for wearing gear? I told you one already. I also wouldnt be able to lift legitimately without it. I have hip and shoulder injuries from football. Gear helps me to lift period. Lifting raw hurts like crazy.
All you are trying to do is piss people off with this post.
[quote]RJay Floyd wrote:
All you are trying to do is piss people off with this post. [/quote]
Sorry but you’re wrong…I did not know, however, what a sore subject it is amongst certain powerlifters on this section of the forums, and I certainly regret bringing it up.
I don’t understand the fuss. He didn’t say “OMG u PLrs r STUPID 4 waering shirts nd siuts!! LOLololololwtf!!!11”
He simply asked why people wear them. A simple explanation would have sufficed. Something better than “we wear them because other PLers wear them,” which is completely different from what he asked. I think he just wants to know why they came into common use in the first place. He never implied that there was something wrong with wearing them.
Someone mentioned that the first bench shirt was created for injury prevention or something along those lines. Maybe someone noticed that it also helped the numbers go up a bit. Perhaps (and don’t quote me on any of this, I’m just theorizing) there wasn’t a rule AGAINST these shirts, so more people started wearing them to get a bit of an edge. It eventually became an accepted part of the sport. Again, none of this is necessarily true, I’m just trying to think along the lines of what the original poster might have intended.
So, any reasonable input? I’m also curious if anyone has any info on the history of shirts and suits, and why they came into common use.
This is one those things that you either “get” or you don’t.
[quote]OneEye wrote:
He simply asked why people wear them. A simple explanation would have sufficed. Something better than “we wear them because other PLers wear them,” which is completely different from what he asked. I think he just wants to know why they came into common use in the first place. He never implied that there was something wrong with wearing them.
[/quote]
uh, this is a reason. If you are competing against other people or their numbers(elite classifications) then you have to wear what they wear or you are at a disadvantage. That is a reason and a very good one. I know a few guys, myself included, who would like to be able to just wear a single ply heavy duty and that be it.
I want to make another point too. A guy isnt a terrible raw bencher just because he benches 200 more in a shirt than without. I have benched 500 with a shirt on and could probably bench 365 raw. Its not because Im such a terrible bench presser. Its because for the last three years, my training has been suited to the bench shirt. That means a ton of top end work and not much bottom end work. My training partners kick my butt when we go off our chests raw, but when we go off any boards, I win by 50-100lbs. One is not better than the other. Its just different.
[quote]RJay Floyd wrote:
OneEye wrote:
He simply asked why people wear them. A simple explanation would have sufficed. Something better than “we wear them because other PLers wear them,” which is completely different from what he asked. I think he just wants to know why they came into common use in the first place. He never implied that there was something wrong with wearing them.
uh, this is a reason. If you are competing against other people or their numbers(elite classifications) then you have to wear what they wear or you are at a disadvantage. That is a reason and a very good one. I know a few guys, myself included, who would like to be able to just wear a single ply heavy duty and that be it.
I want to make another point too. A guy isnt a terrible raw bencher just because he benches 200 more in a shirt than without. I have benched 500 with a shirt on and could probably bench 365 raw. Its not because Im such a terrible bench presser. Its because for the last three years, my training has been suited to the bench shirt. That means a ton of top end work and not much bottom end work. My training partners kick my butt when we go off our chests raw, but when we go off any boards, I win by 50-100lbs. One is not better than the other. Its just different. [/quote]
You must not have read my post well. Saying “I wear them because they wear them” does not explain why they wear them. Why do THEY wear them? Why did they start wearing them IN THE FIRST PLACE? Is that too difficult a question? How many other ways can I put it?
No need to defend your raw benching ability, nobody attacked it or even mentioned it.
[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
While the 1000 looks fantastic, it was accomplished ONLY via the benefit of the shirt. Why not just use a crane to lower and lift 2000 pounds?
[/quote]
Okay, I read your first post, and I think this is why some people are so “sensitive” in responding (I see you repeated the “sensitive/thicken your skin” sentiment several times, which isn’t helping others’ perception of you - that may or may not be fair, but public relations isn’t about being “fair”). This one quote basically starts off the conversation by completely illegitimatizing all of geared lifting. Did you mean to do that? Who knows, but that is how you came across to those that do know about gear and have used it. Again, I’m not saying you had ill intentions, but you did come across that way. Nothing for you to apologize for, but perhaps something you should have been more clear about.
It’s like me coming onto a bodybuilding forum and asking all the people there why they use all the supplements that they do, because the supplements are just inflating their body’s ability to adapt to training and that they would be total jokes if they just had to rely on whole food 24/7. That would be retarded. Obviously supplements are a part of bodybuilding, but so are a bunch of other things.
The point above was not to make a perfect analogy, as we could go back and forth beating our dicks about the perfection of any analogy in this siutaiton, but rather the point was to show what it would be like to completely illegitimatize a group of people when trying to learn about what they do.
Having said all of that, here are some points on gear:
The original intention was injury protection. The injuries originally intended to be prevented are still prevented by the top of the line gear, but that in no way means that people wear jacked up gear for injury protection. Typically injury protection is a nice side effect.
People realized that this injury protection gear also aided in their lifts. Everything went to hell with this realization. If you can train for weeks and months and bench 400 in competition or bench 500 in competition, what are you going to do? Perhaps this answer wil vary, but ask this to the typical powerlifter - a guy interested in lifting heavy things. It’s easy to see that guys who have the mindset of a Tim Allen comedy routine are going to throw the shirts on and have some fun.
Some feds do not offer a raw division (I wish they all did - hell, I wish there was just one fed), and so it’s like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Nice job on the big raw total…and a last place finish. The problem is that there is just not enough interest in raw feds to support them as much as the big geared feds.
I’ve seen many people throw out the ego card. From what perspective is one talking about ego here? In my mind, the guy that is out to always compare himself to others and keep everything raw is the guy with the ego problem - they want to be the “best”. They want there to be a perfect powerlifting ideal that everyone tries to live up to and that everyone is placed according to. These are the people that care what the guys in the office think of what they bench. They get their panties in a wad when some guy mentions that he benched 400 but leaves out the fact that he used a shirt. To me, THAT sounds like ego. (I do understand the ego accusation and agree with it in certain cases, but I wanted to show the other side.)
A LOT goes into geared training and competition if you do it right. For one, it adds many more technical aspects to the lift. Sure, someone might be able to throw on a shirt and get 50 pounds on their bench, but if they work in it more and learn the shirt, they could get 100 out of it. Is that not progress? Isn’t that what we’re all after - being better than we were before?
Not only is it more technical, but it is more physically demanding as well. I have used powerlifting gear and trained all 3 lifts very heavily. The most taxing sessions I ever had were shirted bench sessions. They made me nauseous they were so rough. Raw sessions could never do that to me. Going back to the beginning of my post, you can see why guys that have used gear (wisely, at least) might not come back at you with the best attitude if they think you’re another RAW wanker who doesn’t repsect the effort they put into their lifting. They’re not any more “sensitive” than you would be if someone called you a muscle pumping fairy who only made gains because of the supplements you took. You’d be pretty “sensitive” too.
As for me, I have competed in gear and I have competed raw - both are fun to me. I’ve been lifting a lot more raw recently, but I will throw the gear in for big meets in the future. When someone asks me how much I bench, I consider the context of the question. For most people, I’m just a smart ass and say, “I can bench 135”, as that is true and it answers their question. If I think they have any idea about what might or might not be heavy, I tell them my most recent raw max, because they are probably thinking about raw lifting. And to most people, it’s just a number anyway. 400 and 600 both sound like a lot of weight to the lay person, and you and I both know they always have an uncle/boyfriend/father/brother who has done twice anything you say. If I think the person is interested in a conversation on powerlifting, I will take a stab at explaining the gear situation to them.
[quote]OneEye wrote:
RJay Floyd wrote:
OneEye wrote:
He simply asked why people wear them. A simple explanation would have sufficed. Something better than “we wear them because other PLers wear them,” which is completely different from what he asked. I think he just wants to know why they came into common use in the first place. He never implied that there was something wrong with wearing them.
uh, this is a reason. If you are competing against other people or their numbers(elite classifications) then you have to wear what they wear or you are at a disadvantage. That is a reason and a very good one. I know a few guys, myself included, who would like to be able to just wear a single ply heavy duty and that be it.
I want to make another point too. A guy isnt a terrible raw bencher just because he benches 200 more in a shirt than without. I have benched 500 with a shirt on and could probably bench 365 raw. Its not because Im such a terrible bench presser. Its because for the last three years, my training has been suited to the bench shirt. That means a ton of top end work and not much bottom end work. My training partners kick my butt when we go off our chests raw, but when we go off any boards, I win by 50-100lbs. One is not better than the other. Its just different.
You must not have read my post well. Saying “I wear them because they wear them” does not explain why they wear them. Why do THEY wear them? Why did they start wearing them IN THE FIRST PLACE? Is that too difficult a question? How many other ways can I put it?
No need to defend your raw benching ability, nobody attacked it or even mentioned it.[/quote]
He most certainly did imply that there was something wrong with wearing gear. Hence the phrase, “Whats the point?” That is a condescending statement 99% of the times it is used.
I wasnt asking for defense of my raw ability. I was showing the differences.
I’m competing in my first powerlifting competition in a couple of weeks, so I figured I might have a couple of thoughts worth contributing. The meet I’m competing in is a bench and dead meet, it allows double maybe even triple ply shirts, and isn’t drug tested. I am completely natural and plan on lifting in just a singlet, no shirt. Will I get absolutely destroyed? Of course, I should even hope so. Will I still get some stupid trophy? I think so, I think you get one for showing up. I guess it would be nice to win, but I don’t need that.
All I want is to be out there and competing again, I miss sports. That’s all I need. And as far as what other people were saying if you want to lift raw just find a raw meet, it really isn’t that easy. This entire year there are 4 meets within a reasonable drive from me, 3 of which conflict with my professional schedule. So that leaves me with one equipped, non-tested meet. But I’m not making excuses, I’m just going to compete.
So whatever, this whole issue is really overrated. People just need to remember that the core reasons for the gear are safety and sponsorship. It is the gear companies that propagate the sport, so that means I support gear. Just let it be
Oh, one more thing. The whole double/single/triple ply thing is completely moot now. First off, in the APF, triple ply gear (at least shirts) is legal. I know of almost no one that uses triple ply gear in the APF, so that should tell you something about its effectiveness over double ply gear - it’s just not worth it.
By the same token, people in multi-ply feds obviously favor double ply gear over single ply. Protection against blow-outs is part of this, but there will be more support from double ply gear most of the time.
Now to quantify the difference between single and double ply. The difference is not nearly as much as it used to be. The most important aspects in gear are the type of material and how it fits. An extremely tight single ply shirt can give you a lot - guys in the IPF have had trouble touching 700lbs to single ply shirts. So the “single ply is more pure than double ply” point is impossible to argue now. All gear can be jacked up now.
Double ply guys can also move down to single ply gear nearly seamlessly. I got about as much out of a loose single ply open back (not even velcro) Rage X the first time I used it as a I did my Karin double denim shirt after many uses with it. This is because I have trained for a shirted bench, so all I really need is the shirt to keep me tight and a little pop off the bottom and I can get quite a bit out of a shirt.
The single ply argument has become obsolete. Getting 150lbs out of a shirt compared to 120 is no different in this kind of conversation.
RickJames,
VERY. WELL. SAID!
Your whole post was great.
I’d like to look at this specifically as it relates to my posts as well (not that anyone cares, but it’s a free country, right):
I just want to reiterate that I thought it came off that way to me and I don’t, nor do I ever plan to use gear. I respect the lift regardless of the gear if it’s respectable…because I understand the CONTEXT of the number.
Once again, well done, my friend.
Matthew
[quote]Stochastic wrote:
I’m competing in my first powerlifting competition in a couple of weeks, so I figured I might have a couple of thoughts worth contributing. The meet I’m competing in is a bench and dead meet, it allows double maybe even triple ply shirts, and isn’t drug tested. I am completely natural and plan on lifting in just a singlet, no shirt. Will I get absolutely destroyed? Of course, I should even hope so. Will I still get some stupid trophy? I think so, I think you get one for showing up. I guess it would be nice to win, but I don’t need that.
All I want is to be out there and competing again, I miss sports. That’s all I need. And as far as what other people were saying if you want to lift raw just find a raw meet, it really isn’t that easy. This entire year there are 4 meets within a reasonable drive from me, 3 of which conflict with my professional schedule. So that leaves me with one equipped, non-tested meet. But I’m not making excuses, I’m just going to compete.
[/quote]
There’s the ADAU meet in Brookfield, CT (near Danbury) on the 2nd of October. It’s 100% raw and drug tested. I assume you’ll be lifting in the APA meet on June 26th? Good luck…
This whole debate is stupid.
Why not ask sprinters why they run in track spikes.
Should they have to run barefoot or in dress shoes?
Almost every sport uses specialized equipment.
[quote]OneEye wrote:
I don’t understand the fuss. He didn’t say “OMG u PLrs r STUPID 4 waering shirts nd siuts!! LOLololololwtf!!!11”
He simply asked why people wear them. A simple explanation would have sufficed. Something better than “we wear them because other PLers wear them,” which is completely different from what he asked. I think he just wants to know why they came into common use in the first place. He never implied that there was something wrong with wearing them.
Someone mentioned that the first bench shirt was created for injury prevention or something along those lines. Maybe someone noticed that it also helped the numbers go up a bit. Perhaps (and don’t quote me on any of this, I’m just theorizing) there wasn’t a rule AGAINST these shirts, so more people started wearing them to get a bit of an edge. It eventually became an accepted part of the sport. Again, none of this is necessarily true, I’m just trying to think along the lines of what the original poster might have intended.
So, any reasonable input? I’m also curious if anyone has any info on the history of shirts and suits, and why they came into common use.[/quote]
SANITY PREVAILS!!!