Shirts and Suits: What's the Point?

[Right_Side_Up]

Thanks very much for the latter portion of this post – it was truly the sort of response I was after. It would have sufficed as a retort to the initial position I expressed in my original post, which you quoted here:

[quote]
Right Side Up wrote:
While the 1000 looks fantastic, it was accomplished ONLY via the benefit of the shirt. Why not just use a crane to lower and lift 2000 pounds?[/quote]

Now to reply to your post…

Okay, I read your first post, and I think this is why some people are so “sensitive” in responding (I see you repeated the “sensitive/thicken your skin” sentiment several times, which isn’t helping others’ perception of you - that may or may not be fair, but public relations isn’t about being “fair”). This one quote basically starts off the conversation by completely illegitimatizing all of geared lifting.[/quote]

I declared my ignorance in that initial post. Moreover, I plainly stated that my position on gear (more or less what you quoted above) was merely how it appeared to me at first glance, without any real knowledge (an initial judgment, an impression, etc.)…this further knowledge is what I was asking of you all…the majority, if not all, of the responses I received did nothing to answer my question. People, except apparently OneEye, still don’t seem to understand the question itself.

Until now!

And with that I thank you for the following – I found it interesting.

[quote]Having said all of that, here are some points on gear:

1. The original intention was injury protection. The injuries originally intended to be prevented are still prevented by the top of the line gear, but that in no way means that people wear jacked up gear for injury protection. Typically injury protection is a nice side effect.

2. People realized that this injury protection gear also aided in their lifts. Everything went to hell with this realization. If you can train for weeks and months and bench 400 in competition or bench 500 in competition, what are you going to do? Perhaps this answer wil vary, but ask this to the typical powerlifter - a guy interested in lifting heavy things. It’s easy to see that guys who have the mindset of a Tim Allen comedy routine are going to throw the shirts on and have some fun.

3. Some feds do not offer a raw division (I wish they all did - hell, I wish there was just one fed), and so it’s like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Nice job on the big raw total…and a last place finish. The problem is that there is just not enough interest in raw feds to support them as much as the big geared feds.

4. I’ve seen many people throw out the ego card. From what perspective is one talking about ego here? In my mind, the guy that is out to always compare himself to others and keep everything raw is the guy with the ego problem - they want to be the “best”. They want there to be a perfect powerlifting ideal that everyone tries to live up to and that everyone is placed according to. These are the people that care what the guys in the office think of what they bench. They get their panties in a wad when some guy mentions that he benched 400 but leaves out the fact that he used a shirt. To me, THAT sounds like ego. (I do understand the ego accusation and agree with it in certain cases, but I wanted to show the other side.)

5. A LOT goes into geared training and competition if you do it right. For one, it adds many more technical aspects to the lift. Sure, someone might be able to throw on a shirt and get 50 pounds on their bench, but if they work in it more and learn the shirt, they could get 100 out of it. Is that not progress? Isn’t that what we’re all after - being better than we were before?

Not only is it more technical, but it is more physically demanding as well. I have used powerlifting gear and trained all 3 lifts very heavily. The most taxing sessions I ever had were shirted bench sessions. They made me nauseous they were so rough. Raw sessions could never do that to me. Going back to the beginning of my post, you can see why guys that have used gear (wisely, at least) might not come back at you with the best attitude if they think you’re another RAW wanker who doesn’t repsect the effort they put into their lifting. They’re not any more “sensitive” than you would be if someone called you a muscle pumping fairy who only made gains because of the supplements you took. You’d be pretty “sensitive” too.

As for me, I have competed in gear and I have competed raw - both are fun to me. I’ve been lifting a lot more raw recently, but I will throw the gear in for big meets in the future. When someone asks me how much I bench, I consider the context of the question. For most people, I’m just a smart ass and say, “I can bench 135”, as that is true and it answers their question. If I think they have any idea about what might or might not be heavy, I tell them my most recent raw max, because they are probably thinking about raw lifting. And to most people, it’s just a number anyway. 400 and 600 both sound like a lot of weight to the lay person, and you and I both know they always have an uncle/boyfriend/father/brother who has done twice anything you say. If I think the person is interested in a conversation on powerlifting, I will take a stab at explaining the gear situation to them.

Considering this, I don’t think it does much to persuade me from my initial thoughts – but (before I offend someone) that’s okay!!! I don’t need to be persuaded to be enlightened…

[ironheadpl]

[quote]TTewell342 wrote:
ironheadpl wrote:

Not every Fed has raw divisions. NASA has Power Sports, NAP has raw BP div. & there are some more but not all.

Were you naming the ones that do have RAW divisions? I compete in the APF and IPA, those r the 2 most gear heavy feds and they both have raw divisions. I’m not aware of feds that don’t have any raw divisions.[/quote]

Yes the ones I know that have raw divisions. I know that the APA doesn’t & also USAPL doesn’t at least the meets held in Texas.

[ironheadpl]

[quote]monkeyarms wrote:
-Raw meets are dominated by bible thumpers and a turn-off for that reason.
[/quote]

This is a really dumb thing to say. Raw meets are dominated by people that want to see how strong they really are, not how much they can squeeze out of gear.

[RJay_Floyd]

If you compete in a raw meet because you want to “see how strong you really are without squeezing as much as you can out of gear” then just compete in any meet. They will let you do it in any meet you want to. Why does it have to be a RAW meet? If you are just doing it for you,(which is why you are going raw), then it doesnt matter what everyone else is doing.

[ironheadpl]

[quote]RJay Floyd wrote:
If you compete in a raw meet because you want to “see how strong you really are without squeezing as much as you can out of gear” then just compete in any meet. They will let you do it in any meet you want to. Why does it have to be a RAW meet? If you are just doing it for you,(which is why you are going raw), then it doesnt matter what everyone else is doing. [/quote]

Good point. I was just trying to say that raw meets are not dominated by “Bible thumpers”.

[RJay_Floyd]

[quote]ironheadpl wrote:
RJay Floyd wrote:
If you compete in a raw meet because you want to “see how strong you really are without squeezing as much as you can out of gear” then just compete in any meet. They will let you do it in any meet you want to. Why does it have to be a RAW meet? If you are just doing it for you,(which is why you are going raw), then it doesnt matter what everyone else is doing.

Good point. I was just trying to say that raw meets are not dominated by “Bible thumpers”. [/quote]
Yeah I took offense to that too. Why do they call it Bible thumping? I usually read my Bible.

[RickJames]

I don’t think raw guys should be stereotyped as “Bible thumpers” at all. Maybe some are a bit odd, but a lot aren’t.

And I second the suggestion that anyone who wants to lift raw shouldn’t really worry about where they do it. If a raw fed is available, then great, but I have lifted raw in geared meets (APF) without a problem. The meet directors want your money, the crowd just wants to see you work hard, and the other competitors are glad you’re going raw.

[ironheadpl]

[quote]RickJames wrote:
I don’t think raw guys should be stereotyped as “Bible thumpers” at all. Maybe some are a bit odd, but a lot aren’t.

And I second the suggestion that anyone who wants to lift raw shouldn’t really worry about where they do it. If a raw fed is available, then great, but I have lifted raw in geared meets (APF) without a problem. The meet directors want your money, the crowd just wants to see you work hard, and the other competitors are glad you’re going raw. [/quote]

I agree. I am going to go do a NASA meet raw. They have power sports which is raw but it has curl, BP & DL. I may do the powerlifting 3 lift though (raw). Then I may go back & do some single ply meets.

[robo1]

I think the proliferation of gear in powerlifting is really the product of noone wanting to be left behind. There are very few raw meets/raw divisions etc. so if you want to be competitive you have use gear that’s on par with what your competition is using. I’m not a fan of gear at all but I use it because I want to place as high as possible. If the rules allow a double ply denim or a canvas suit, you’re going to be at a disadvantage showing up in single ply poly. I do see more shirted/suit competitions are no offering a raw category within the meet, which I think is a good idea to satisfy the purists, and at least it gives the lifters an option.

This discussion reminds me of company softball league I’m in. we just switched rules to require all the men to use wooden bats. The aluminum and titanium bats had just gotten out of hand, every toothpick with a hundred dollars to spend was suddenly barry bonds. The bat purists of course used the metal bats as well because they wanted to keep up. eventually we all got together and decided it would fairer to go all wood.