Sheiko Programs = Results!

[apwsearch]

[quote]Dominator wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
So anybody who has tried this program did you have to work into the volume or did you just go all the way into it. Was the volume an issue at all or not. I think i wanna try this program but i want to some more insider reaction to it. thank you

I guess it depends on which program you start first. If you do the beginer workouts first and are working on training maxes, I think the volume is doable. Part of the problem with people who do the workout is that they use their contest maxes to work off the percentages rather than training maxes. The Russian’s tend to use very high volume, but they also use lower maxes for their training numbers, so it all equals out, but if you didn’t know that about the Russians, you be doing these high volume training programs and overtraining in about three weeks.

[/quote]

Very good advice clearly given by someone who has appreciable experience with the routines.

We normally will set maxes at 80-85% of actual, in particular for a first timer, and then monitor the first three weeks very closely b/c you can typically revise down in time to keep it from becoming a complete trainwreck.

[Hanley]

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Dominator wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
So anybody who has tried this program did you have to work into the volume or did you just go all the way into it. Was the volume an issue at all or not. I think i wanna try this program but i want to some more insider reaction to it. thank you

I guess it depends on which program you start first. If you do the beginer workouts first and are working on training maxes, I think the volume is doable. Part of the problem with people who do the workout is that they use their contest maxes to work off the percentages rather than training maxes. The Russian’s tend to use very high volume, but they also use lower maxes for their training numbers, so it all equals out, but if you didn’t know that about the Russians, you be doing these high volume training programs and overtraining in about three weeks.

Very good advice clearly given by someone who has appreciable experience with the routines.

We normally will set maxes at 80-85% of actual, in particular for a first timer, and then monitor the first three weeks very closely b/c you can typically revise down in time to keep it from becoming a complete trainwreck.
[/quote]

Are you a fan of the Sheiko routines??

[apwsearch]

Not in general for the reasons pointed out by Dominator.

If you have someone around who has practical experience with the routines and knows how to structure the cycle so as not to overtrain, they can be effective.

However, generally speaking, most people download it from the internet, use forecasted or ambitious nums to base it on and end up crashing and burning.

Intrinsically, my experience has been that a lifter is always better off hitting the nums at the end of the cycle rather than beginning to struggle and miss reps in the closing weeks.

It typically takes a certain level of applied skill/knowledge to structure a cycle so this occurs.

[MikeTheBear]

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
That’s what I’d gathered from the way you put it. Also, are there timed rest periods or do you just wing it? Thanks alot for writing this out.[/quote]

Wing it. Be prepared to spend two hours in the gym with these. One time I did just the bench portion of the workout and it took an hour.

[Hanley]

Looking at it tho, 85% for 2 or 3 would appear relatively easy. I’m guessing the problem is attempting to do this 2x a week?

Is it the volume and not the intensity which kills people?

[apwsearch]

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Looking at it tho, 85% for 2 or 3 would appear relatively easy. I’m guessing the problem is attempting to do this 2x a week?

Is it the volume and not the intensity which kills people?[/quote]

Volume and frequency.

Again, the bigger issue is not having the experience to know what percentage of a max should be used compounded by not having the forsight to revise downward in time to prevent a crash.

[Hanley]

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Looking at it tho, 85% for 2 or 3 would appear relatively easy. I’m guessing the problem is attempting to do this 2x a week?

Is it the volume and not the intensity which kills people?

Volume and frequency.

Again, the bigger issue is not having the experience to know what percentage of a max should be used compounded by not having the forsight to revise downward in time to prevent a crash.
[/quote]

It must really suck not having someone experienced you can turn to and ask questions so!!

[huey_ot]

Bear: Thanks for sharing your workout template. May I ask where you got that routine from? PM me the website(s) you go to for that program. The strongest guys I know use programs like that.

As for the accessory exercises, are you using the precise accessory lifts that are prescribed by the Sheiko program? How much freestyle are you using?

Personally, I don’t think I’ll ever use a program that I haven’t designed myself, but it’s very interesting to read about this approach to training.

Keep on kicking ass.

[Dominator]

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Very good advice clearly given by someone who has appreciable experience with the routines.

We normally will set maxes at 80-85% of actual, in particular for a first timer, and then monitor the first three weeks very closely b/c you can typically revise down in time to keep it from becoming a complete trainwreck.
[/quote]

I actually have used 90% of my best raw maxes without too much problems on the various Sheiko routines that have been sent to me, so 80%-85% for a beginer is probably a fair starting point. The good thing about starting low is that you can always add weight if it’s too easy, but it always sucks to lower the weight because you feel that you can’t get through the workouts.

I’ve also done the Sheiko workouts on true raw max totals as well, and the results were minimal as compared to training at the 90% number. The overtraining really kicked in as well, so it’s pointless, IMO, to even attempt doing the routine on true maxes unless your going to be using drugs.

[Dunner]

I disagree with a few points listed in here. First off I train following the Sheiko templates, in 4 week prep blocks. When approaching a contest this is coupled with the 5 week contest prep block.

(I’ll warn you, this will probably be all over the place…I apologize)

A few things listed…mainly the needing “restoratives” to complete the programs…that is complete BS. If you’re training correctly, and smartly, you do not need anabolics. I am an IPF lifter, lifetime drug free, heck I don’t even take creatine as it kills my stomach, I forget to take multi vitamins half the time, and I recover just fine.
Wade Hooper, ya’ll should know who he is. Uses Sheiko training, and hes put up some “pretty decent numbers” and he’s passed every drug test he’s ever been given.

Most North Americans don’t succeed on Sheiko mainly because they get bored. And start adding where they don’t need to. The volume and intensity is pretty much…perfectly set up in these templates.

Another thing that I see a lot of people doing incorrectly is following as it’s written on the net. Taken from Sheiko’s book “Make it your own”.
For instance, I don’t flat bench all 4 days a week, I close grip monday, sometimes with bands, raw comp grip pyramid on wednesday, Friday is Shirt and Boards, and saturday is usually paused form work, or floor press.

Same with squats, second squat exercise on monday’s or friday’s is sometimes an olympic squat, paused, box etc. Whatever it is I assess I need to work on.

I would be willing to bet Sheiko type training is used by more people than not across the world. Obviously, mainly in Europe, as the vast majority of IPF lifters train in this style.

This style of training works if you go about it properly. Your weaknesses change, they become strengths after awhile, you have to be astute enough to realise this and change things accordingly.

[Dominator]

[quote]Dunner wrote:
I disagree with a few points listed in here. First off I train following the Sheiko templates, in 4 week prep blocks. When approaching a contest this is coupled with the 5 week contest prep block.

(I’ll warn you, this will probably be all over the place…I apologize)

A few things listed…mainly the needing “restoratives” to complete the programs…that is complete BS. If you’re training correctly, and smartly, you do not need anabolics. I am an IPF lifter, lifetime drug free, heck I don’t even take creatine as it kills my stomach, I forget to take multi vitamins half the time, and I recover just fine.
Wade Hooper, ya’ll should know who he is. Uses Sheiko training, and hes put up some “pretty decent numbers” and he’s passed every drug test he’s ever been given.

Most North Americans don’t succeed on Sheiko mainly because they get bored. And start adding where they don’t need to. The volume and intensity is pretty much…perfectly set up in these templates.

Another thing that I see a lot of people doing incorrectly is following as it’s written on the net. Taken from Sheiko’s book “Make it your own”.
For instance, I don’t flat bench all 4 days a week, I close grip monday, sometimes with bands, raw comp grip pyramid on wednesday, Friday is Shirt and Boards, and saturday is usually paused form work, or floor press.

Same with squats, second squat exercise on monday’s or friday’s is sometimes an olympic squat, paused, box etc. Whatever it is I assess I need to work on.

I would be willing to bet Sheiko type training is used by more people than not across the world. Obviously, mainly in Europe, as the vast majority of IPF lifters train in this style.

This style of training works if you go about it properly. Your weaknesses change, they become strengths after awhile, you have to be astute enough to realise this and change things accordingly.[/quote]

The restoratives issue is NOT BS! On various Sheiko workouts, and on many other Russian based training programs, in the translated section often times reads the use of restoratives on various times of training. I mentioned the use of restoratives mainly as a warning for those who are rather unfamilier with the Russians rather open use of drugs as a means for recovery. It’s important to know that restoratives are a rather major part of these training protocols, mainly if someone is trying to train off true raw maxes, following the workout to the letter, and doing it all drug or substance free.

Your specific experience to recovery may be to the fact that you have gifted genetics, or that you modified the workout enough for you to not over-train. Again, the real issue here is simply getting the correct information out in the air, especially for those than plan to follow the program to the letter.

To close, I agree with you about modifying the program to fit your needs. I’ve mentioned this in other Sheiko threads that adding some Conjugate principles makes a lot of sense when the exercise repeat or if one wants to change the supplemental lifts to better taylor areas of need.

[Dunner]

[quote]Dominator wrote:

The restoratives issue is NOT BS! On various Sheiko workouts, and on many other Russian based training programs, in the translated section often times reads the use of restoratives on various times of training. I mentioned the use of restoratives mainly as a warning for those who are rather unfamilier with the Russians rather open use of drugs as a means for recovery. It’s important to know that restoratives are a rather major part of these training protocols, mainly if someone is trying to train off true raw maxes, following the workout to the letter, and doing it all drug or substance free.

Your specific experience to recovery may be to the fact that you have gifted genetics, or that you modified the workout enough for you to not over-train. Again, the real issue here is simply getting the correct information out in the air, especially for those than plan to follow the program to the letter.

To close, I agree with you about modifying the program to fit your needs. I’ve mentioned this in other Sheiko threads that adding some Conjugate principles makes a lot of sense when the exercise repeat or if one wants to change the supplemental lifts to better taylor areas of need.[/quote]

I apologize, I didn’t mean to say it was BS that you had seen that written or that it was indeed written in some programs, because I definatly agree that it was. Hey, there is a reason the Russians and Ukrainians are banned from IPF competition right now. I will say though, that many of their programs contain a ton more volume than you see in the online sheiko templates. I’ve seen Ivan Freydun’s training set up before, and wow…it’s insane!! Basically double Sheiko!

I definatly don’t have gifted genetics when it comes to recovery, I often found myself overtraining on Western Periodization type programs. One thing that I think has helped me with recovery issues on Sheiko, is identifying between overtraining and just plain fatigue. If I notice OT is coming on, I might drop a few sets off my main lifts, seems to do the trick.
With all the low %'s and frequency I find Sheiko almost has a restorative way about it.

I could however see how someone new or inexperienced to this style of training could smash themselves into the ground pretty quickly though…if done incorrectly. I agree with what you say about people putting in lofty goals as actual maxes…that will lead to overtraining and/or injury.

[apwsearch]

[quote]Dunner wrote:
Dominator wrote:

The restoratives issue is NOT BS! On various Sheiko workouts, and on many other Russian based training programs, in the translated section often times reads the use of restoratives on various times of training. I mentioned the use of restoratives mainly as a warning for those who are rather unfamilier with the Russians rather open use of drugs as a means for recovery. It’s important to know that restoratives are a rather major part of these training protocols, mainly if someone is trying to train off true raw maxes, following the workout to the letter, and doing it all drug or substance free.

Your specific experience to recovery may be to the fact that you have gifted genetics, or that you modified the workout enough for you to not over-train. Again, the real issue here is simply getting the correct information out in the air, especially for those than plan to follow the program to the letter.

To close, I agree with you about modifying the program to fit your needs. I’ve mentioned this in other Sheiko threads that adding some Conjugate principles makes a lot of sense when the exercise repeat or if one wants to change the supplemental lifts to better taylor areas of need.

I apologize, I didn’t mean to say it was BS that you had seen that written or that it was indeed written in some programs, because I definatly agree that it was. Hey, there is a reason the Russians and Ukrainians are banned from IPF competition right now. I will say though, that many of their programs contain a ton more volume than you see in the online sheiko templates. I’ve seen Ivan Freydun’s training set up before, and wow…it’s insane!! Basically double Sheiko!

I definatly don’t have gifted genetics when it comes to recovery, I often found myself overtraining on Western Periodization type programs. One thing that I think has helped me with recovery issues on Sheiko, is identifying between overtraining and just plain fatigue. If I notice OT is coming on, I might drop a few sets off my main lifts, seems to do the trick.
With all the low %'s and frequency I find Sheiko almost has a restorative way about it.

I could however see how someone new or inexperienced to this style of training could smash themselves into the ground pretty quickly though…if done incorrectly. I agree with what you say about people putting in lofty goals as actual maxes…that will lead to overtraining and/or injury.[/quote]

Wow. Dominator doesn’t post much but I always find his post insightful.

I don’t know where you came from but you appear to have some pretty solid knowledge, as well.

It is nice to see the return of some people posting here with broader levels of experience than having read “The Eight Keys,” and "Everything on elitefts.com " who have now become self-appointed “Westside” experts but still cannot offer any meaningful advice.

[Dominator]

[quote]Dunner wrote:
I could however see how someone new or inexperienced to this style of training could smash themselves into the ground pretty quickly though…if done incorrectly. I agree with what you say about people putting in lofty goals as actual maxes…that will lead to overtraining and/or injury.[/quote]

Actually, it’s the other way around from my experience…the more experienced or qualified the lifter, the more they struggled with the program, again, when using true raw maxes.

I’ve seen some beginers, or lower qualified lifters be able to use true maxes on the Sheiko routines because their nervous system had not yet been trained enough, so they were able to handle the volume, intensity, and frequency without too much problems. It’s the guys with the highly functioning CNS that seem to struggle with the high volume approach. That’s why ultimately, I think training Conjugate is the way one should end up, and really, that conforms to all the research that the Russian’s did on training as one moves up their level of mastery.

[Dominator]

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Wow. Dominator doesn’t post much but I always find his post insightful.

I don’t know where you came from but you appear to have some pretty solid knowledge, as well.

It is nice to see the return of some people posting here with broader levels of experience than having read “The Eight Keys,” and "Everything on elitefts.com " who have now become self-appointed “Westside” experts but still cannot offer any meaningful advice.
[/quote]

I don’t post much because, quite frankly, there’s not many topics worth discussing about.

Most of the the threads here are pretty watered down. From time to time I’ll see something worth posting about, but for the most part, as you pointed out, a lot of people that post here have read a few articles by Louie and all of a sudden are experts about all facets of training! It’s actually pretty laughable.

I originally thought that the forum idea here was going to be a good one: there would be a lot of great discussion that would talk about things from a more scientific approach, and I thought that I’d be able to participate more and hopefully come across some new information. Unfortunately, that hasn’t been the case, but from time to time I’ll find something that grabs my attention, and lately for whatever reason, I’ve found myself posting more.

[gadget]

Can anyone tell me what a “наклоны стоя” is? I have it in my Sheiko template and I cannot translate it.

[eisenaffe]

I think it’s “standing (regular) goodmornings”.

[eisenaffe]

Long live Boris Sheiko!

I completed the basic powerlifting routine (as posted in this thread) by B. Sheiko.

I gained in 4 weeks:

Squat 40 Kg (from 190 to 230)
Benchpress 10 Kg (from 120 to 130)
Deadlift 15 Kg (from 215 to 230)

Bodyweight went from 98 to 100 Kg.

The deadlift number fel so short because I didn’t pull for a long time before this routine so I pulled like a girl due to pain in my palm and had to quit a couple deadlift sessions.

[Hanley]

HOLY SHIT!!

Were they raw lifts? Or did you put on gear when obtaining your new max??

That’s an absolutely sick squat increase.

[Dominator]

[quote]Hanley wrote:
HOLY SHIT!!

Were they raw lifts? Or did you put on gear when obtaining your new max??

That’s an absolutely sick squat increase.[/quote]

Part of why this program works is because people don’t realize how underworked they are with their volume, so as soon as your bring your conditioning levels up through the volume, you adapt and your maxes go up.

The same thing happened to me about a month ago. I injured my pec, so I decided to do some rehab type training for a while. I decided to try and do Reverse-band Bench with Green bands and 135 for 100 straight reps.

I thought this was going to be easy, turns out that I was getting fried at around 30 reps with both 135 and 115! I also decided that some light weight sled face pulls for a high number of trips was going to be another move to do. Same result on the sled too…I was fried after 6 trips, and my goal was 12!

So, long story short, I stayed on my rehab assignment for a month, and just yesterday, on my second ME day, I did a 50 Lbs PR on Reverse-band Bench. Every now and then, volume training is good, that’s why I think Sheiko isn’t bad from time to time, if for nothing else, your conditioning will become better.