Your best program is to clean up from juice completely and teach your body to diet and train - then consider another (safer) cycle. TRT wont do much for you at this point, as you were on insane dosing…this would just be cruising. What you need is a PROPER PCT, blood tests every 3 months until your body is reset and stable…during this time, train hard and diet well to teach your body and build a foundation. After you’re healthy and your body is ready, then consider gear again. Continuing as you are is mostly causing more harm than good. I know this can be a bit disheartening if you are really enjoying the idea behind gear, but you are really best to take a step back and get your body healthy etc to obtain LONG TERM success and health. Hope that helps.
Hi there
First of all - I’d like to see some pictures if possible to take a look at muscle mass and actual body fat percentage. From first read, I think if you are gaining so much fat in order to go up class, your diet or supplementation is off somewhere - there’s no reason for that to happen. It can be many reasons - wrong macros, carb timing, insulin sensitivity, not enough volume in training etc etc…I would try to get to the bottom of this before you begin a cycle.
I’ll try to answer your questions according to what you’ve given me - I’ll do my best with limited info and a few things like the above BF comment not making 100% sense.
- with short esters you can probably get away with 8 week cycles - I would use suspension not prop.
- I would probably use it for the whole cycle to prevent problems - heads up it’s a drug that is easily caught by testing
- for your first cycle i probably wouldn’t use tren - you don’t have enough experience or knowledge at this point to jump to the strongest injectable out there. (example - considering Winny and talking tested don’t go hand in hand - it is easy to pick up in the blood for 6 months at least)…start basic and learn before considering something like tren.
- completely depends on the duration, specific compouds, and testing. I would say minimum 6-8 weeks off including PCT.
- in theory if diet, training, and supplementation are perfect you can keep 75-80% of your gains. This normally doesn’t happen but theoretically it’s possible.
- What you’ve posted here I would never do personally. It’s all over the place and not stable in your blood - end of the day it’s all over the place …protocols should be designed with purpose. Also re read my comment about Winstrol if you are aiming for tested. I believe every cycle needs some sort of PCT, even if it’s just alpha male.
- I never recommend beginning a cycle over 10% body fat…I honestly think something is off in your diet if you gained that much weight via fat. You need muscle tissue. If you think the weight is beneficial to your sport (Assuming because of leverages? or just lift more weight because you’re fatter…it doesn’t make you better really - always compare yourself to the people in the same weight class.
Sorry if I’m being harsh at all - I just want to make sure you don’t bite yourself in the ass by jumping into a cycle within tested arenas that’s not appropriate or poorly laid out. I feel you need to do a bit more research diet and steroid wise (if you have specific questions about the steroid portions, I’m happy to help) before you actually move forward. I think body fat is an important thing to address (as I said - post pictures if you want more specific feedback about this)
This is super individual. I would probably cut it a week out but it depends on a lot (food, supps, how ready you are, etc etc) - I realize you need to make this decisions right now but if you post pictures I can give a much more educated answer.
Next time throw these questions at me earlier!
I’ll say this - if you’re TRULY 100% ready body fat wise, dryness wise, and have a perfect last week protocol, then this shot one way or the other wont make or break you.
Hey
Thanks for the reply, I will try to provide he additional info you requested starting with photos:
As I said, I have had trouble gaining weight in the past and my coach has been pressurising me to just put on mass, even if its fat. I had to go all the way up to 6000cal/day before I started gaining weight (was stable at 5.2/5.3k…). It was going a bit fast so I reigned it in to 5.8k at about 313/282/376 P/C/F (yes, high fat). Anyway, over the past year, weight gain has been steady. In terms of supplements, its just whey which is factored into the macros. Protein comes from steak, chicken, eggs, whey and milk mostly. All carbs are low GI (oats, sweat potato) except 2 bananas on steak nights after training. Fat comes from meat, milk, mayonnaise, cheese, nuts, avocados.
I don’t think insulin sensitivity is a problem, and I have been training 4x/week for 2-3h lifting per session, with a mixture of weight training and weightlifting movements, ocvering strength and hypertrophy rep ranges, and strength has increased. I basically just ramped up the fat to up the calories.
I think it is worth noting, I will not be tested just now but may be late next year.
-
The ability to maintain constant levels with Test suspension concerns me, would I need to jag 2x/d?
-
Cool. I was considering oral Winny, not injectable, I believe he detection duration here is only 3 weeks.
-
Is the <10%bf because of the aromatisation taking place in fat cells? Would a good AI protocol overcome this? If I were to compare myself to others in my weight class, the guys at the olympics are fat, there are no two ways about it. They are also mostly juiced up, there is no getting away from that either. Also, outside my sport, there is Strongman and that is not a “clean sport” by any stretch, almost none of them are under 10%. I am not arguing with you, I value your input. I am just wondering if I really need to wait to cut back down before I begin a cycle? I have excellent control of my daily macro intake, so I can adjust to results as needed.
-
I came across this: https://thinksteroids.com/articles/perfect-8-week-testosterone-based-steroid-cycle/
I don’t like the long half life of Test-E. I do like the idea of front loading and 100mg Test-P ED for the full 8 weeks. I would probably go for 400mg Test-P (split in to 2 doses) and then 100mg ED thereafter. this seems to hit the equivalent cruising blood concentration after a few days rather than waiting a couple weeks. Obv would have to front load an AI from the get go.
Thanks again for your help. You are not being harsh at all, just honest, which is great!
I’m off to look at how to structure a susp cycle.
(edit. after looking further into suspension, the increased bacterial contamination cases and chance for significant pain are turning me away, but I am open to your thoughts).
(Do you or know anyone who coaches sports PEDs? aberdebonair@gmail.com)
- You could probably get away with one per day pre workout but two is better
- If it’s WADA testing don’t fool yourself - they will catch it at a longer time than three weeks (I’ve seen people get caught 6-8 weeks out even with oral winny - I’m not sure how to be honest but they do)
- It’s not that 10% is a magic number but there are strong studies showing that anything over 12% makes it significantly harder to gain muscle mass. It’s not just the aromatization, it’s that the body will turn food into fat cells more quickly than in to muscle cells…the fatter you are, the more quickly your body naturally stores extra calories into fat. It also seems to make a cycle much less efficient (again I’m not certain why but I’ve seen it countless times). Being fat obviously gives you better leverages, but I believe that you can balance muscle mass and fat for optimal strength. Is there a reason that you are needing to compete in this weight class? If I was coaching you, I would tell you to change your macros to a high carb, much lower fat diet and get your body into an ideal place to gain muscle and then build strength and size from there. I just think starting a cycle at this body fat (which has it’s own health risks) wont be benefit-optimal. You’ll get stronger of course, but do I think you are planning optimally? - No.
- I don’t like front load personally - lots of people like them but I don’t. Your body likes balance and hitting it so hard from the start (especially for someone new) will likely increase sides or get you sick (test flu etc).
There is a big synergy between nutrition and juice. To be honest you need a coach to look at both of them. You have a lot of information here and it’s hard to answer just from a steroid standpoint which of course what this forum is about. I don’t want to confuse you at all - my suggestion is take the points from this that are helpful and then if you need direction, work with a good coach to get you fully on track - there are several attached to this site that are excellent.
Keep in mind the internet is full of empty info and juice particularly has very limited actual research - you need to trial things and talk to pros with experience rather than just read articles etc.
Tyvm for your input.
My take aways are:
-Get back down to 15%bf min
-Probably use Susp
-I take on board your comment about front loading, but if Susp is used, it is absorbed so fast, I imagine this isn’t needed regardless
-Looks like 50mg Susp 2xED would be effective but the next point shows that coming off may present the problem for me
-Detection limit of SERMs can be up to 5 months so either finish PCT 6 months from testing or cycle without SERMS
That last comment was a difficult pill to swallow (if you’ll pardon the pun).
This means, if SERM PCT is a must, I either compete, or cycle this/next year, I cant do both.
This really means, if I am to compete, I need to manage my PCT with HCG and an AI or do 2 week bursts od SUSP with 4 weeks off as a cycle with SERMS means I need to start the 8 week cycle 9 months before a test in order to be clear. I dont like the idea of 2 on 4 off and you have shot this down in the past.
- Do you know if it can be safe and effective to PCT by smart use of AI and HCG?
- Sorry for being a total noobsticle but, “there are several (good coaches) attached to this site that are excellent”. Are you referring to forum users or article/blog writers? How would you best advise approaching these individuals without posting “HEY YOO MAN, HELP ME DO THE DRUGZZZZ!” :D.
Finally, if I were to start a cycle in the next couple weeks it would probably have to look something like this:
W 1-8 - Susp 50mg 2xED (or Test-P 100mg ED if cant get Susp)
W 1-8 - Arimidex 0.5mg ED
W 2-9 - HCG 250iu 3x/wk
W 9-12 - Alpha Male at recommended dose
W 12 - Testosterone bloods
(W 13-16 Back up solution if test is real low Nolva 20mg ED and just bail from comps)
- Is this just suicidal? I realise this is sub optimal but SERMS are out if I plan to compete. I know some guys come on and off without pct and do fine, guess this is just genetics. Would the above be a safe (ish, since the nolva is on stand by) way to find out if I can cope?
Thanks again SP, you are saving me a LOT of grief.
Hi Shadow,
I would like to have your advice on my next cycle.
My stats are 1.80m, 76kg 8%bf.
I’ve run some other few cycles before always on low dossages. At this time I’m getting stuff from pharma so I think I could use lower dossages than before. My idea is something like this:
1-10 ->Test Enant 250mg/week
1-8 → Deca 100mg/week
1-10 → Eq 100mg/week
1-11 → A.dex 0.5mg/e3d
For the PCT:
12-13 → HCG 1000 ui/e3d
12-13 → A.dex 0.5mg/e3d
14-16 → Clomid 100/50/50mg
14-17 → Nolva 20/20/10/10
As you see, the dossages are low, I will mainly focus on my workout and diet. I had an injury after my last cycle and have lost several kg so my idea is just to recover the lost muscle mass.
Anyway, I would like to add Anavar and maybe Clen at the end of the cycle, but I’m not sure how to do it.
I would appreciate if you could help me with this and also with any change that you would do on the proposed cycle.
PD: till now I’ve always used the HCG before the PCT, but is really working to avoid testes desensibilization if used 250mg twice peer week during cycle?
First of all - you’re good with your take aways.
- Here’s the good news - you can get away with just nolvadex and HCG, especially for a cycle like this.
- I’m sure there are also qualified forum users, but I meant coaches connected to the site. T-nation connects themselves with knowledgeable athetes/coaches …I can’t really give you more direction than that, but take a look over your options and contact to see if there are coaching opportunities. Trust me when I say no one in these sports are going to be offended by the fact that you have gear considerations along with diet and training. If you are having trouble still and unsure, let me know and I’ll try to better steer you.
As for the cycle, this is considered a pretty low dose so not at all suicidal…between the use of arimadex and HCG during the cycle, and Alpha Male and Nolva - you should be completely fine. It’s not the same for everyone but if I had to put money on it, I’d say you’ll be completely fine (as long as you dont get tested).
My pleasure[quote=“naxxor, post:753, topic:209438, full:true”]
Tyvm for your input.
My take aways are:
-Get back down to 15%bf min
-Probably use Susp
-I take on board your comment about front loading, but if Susp is used, it is absorbed so fast, I imagine this isn’t needed regardless
-Looks like 50mg Susp 2xED would be effective but the next point shows that coming off may present the problem for me
-Detection limit of SERMs can be up to 5 months so either finish PCT 6 months from testing or cycle without SERMS
That last comment was a difficult pill to swallow (if you’ll pardon the pun).
This means, if SERM PCT is a must, I either compete, or cycle this/next year, I cant do both.
This really means, if I am to compete, I need to manage my PCT with HCG and an AI or do 2 week bursts od SUSP with 4 weeks off as a cycle with SERMS means I need to start the 8 week cycle 9 months before a test in order to be clear. I dont like the idea of 2 on 4 off and you have shot this down in the past.
- Do you know if it can be safe and effective to PCT by smart use of AI and HCG?
- Sorry for being a total noobsticle but, “there are several (good coaches) attached to this site that are excellent”. Are you referring to forum users or article/blog writers? How would you best advise approaching these individuals without posting “HEY YOO MAN, HELP ME DO THE DRUGZZZZ!” :D.
Finally, if I were to start a cycle in the next couple weeks it would probably have to look something like this:
W 1-8 - Susp 50mg 2xED (or Test-P 100mg ED if cant get Susp)
W 1-8 - Arimidex 0.5mg ED
W 2-9 - HCG 250iu 3x/wk
W 9-12 - Alpha Male at recommended dose
W 12 - Testosterone bloods
(W 13-16 Back up solution if test is real low Nolva 20mg ED and just bail from comps)
- Is this just suicidal? I realise this is sub optimal but SERMS are out if I plan to compete. I know some guys come on and off without pct and do fine, guess this is just genetics. Would the above be a safe (ish, since the nolva is on stand by) way to find out if I can cope?
Thanks again SP, you are saving me a LOT of grief.
[/quote]
You definitely did your homework
A couple small adjustments - START with the Anavar rather than finish - it will give you a good boost.
Weeks 1-6 50-100mg tapering up every week (obv if you get it from a pharmacy you can use a lower side of dosing of course…if theyre not pharm, heads up it’s probably not Var).
I would use HCG as you listed but ALSO during the cycle 250iu per week, beginning on week 2.
You can use clen just before cardio on cardio days, or 2 weeks on and 1 week off, or stay on it and ketotifen. You can start at 0.2mcg and bump up that amount per week.
Hi SP
Thanks a lot.
I don’ think I got my point across fully.
I was meaning cycling with HCG and A.dex, then PCT with Alphamale ONLY.
Would this just be suicidal?
The Nolva would just be on stand by in case I did not recover well.
As Nolva has a 5 month detection time, it would really help if I could cycle without having to use it.
I think I know the answer and am almost embarrassed to ask but there may be a strategy I am unaware of.
Thanks Again
Ok sorry I misunderstood.
Well it’s not suicidal but it is very individual what to expect reaction-wise.
Here’s what you can do safely (I’m not sure what you can do about detection of the 2 drugs I am recommending - I have to admit I’m not fully up to date on detection times so you’ll have to ensure you’re educated).
Alpha Male - triple the recommended dose (4am, 4 midday, 4 before bed) - I use double in addition to my normal PCT. It contains a lot tribulus etc that will get your balls working.
Rez V - double the recommended dose to help balance between test and estrogen
DHEA seems to have positive impact on PCT - I’ve seen it help in natural athletes quite a bit - very experimental - just brainstorming on this one really.
Proviron and clomid once you start PCT (for 4 weeks post cycle clomid 100/100/50/50 and proviron 100/75/50/25)
There are also a few experimental peptides but I’ve never tried them so I don’t like to recommend - may be worth looking into for you.
Does this answer your question now?
Hi shadow, thanks for your answer.
I’ll use anavar at the begining then. I just though it was a nice idea to use it at the end (last weeks until the PCT starts) just to mantain the anabolic effect the time I’ve finish the cycle and I need to wait to start the PCT.
On the other hand, if i’ve understood right, you recommend to use HCG from week 2to10 on a 250UI/week basis, then rest 1 week (week 11) and then start again in week 12 but on a 1000UI/e3d basis? This would be like 2500UI on cycle and 5000UI before PCT. Wouldn’t this be too much HCG? Of course speaking form my low knowledge, almost everything that I’ve readed is that using too much HCG could cause the opposite effect that we want. I would appreciate if you could give me your vision about this.
And the last one, I haven’t cosidered using proviron also on the PCT. Would it add some valuable benefit to the defined PCT?
Hi Shadow,
A question as far as MCT oil
I’m 4 weeks out and almost ready. I’m doing very well with ultra low fat diet: 1.5 protein, 5 grams of only in my meal pre workout and my unique carbs are 2-3 Plazma during the workout and in the mag10 in the morning and postworkout.
I’m not using stimulants so the process depends on the control of inflammation, cortisol, and smart training, plus very very hard dieting. 1 cheat meal perf week. Low impact cardio.
I feel with energy during the week. I only have 2 days or so to come back feeling well (energy) after my cheat meal. So I’m not sure how this ultra low fat approach goes with ketosis in some point.
Anyway I don’t want screw up my condition, and I’m aware of benefit of Caprylic Acid, no only for reach a fast ketosis but brain function, energy and physiological function.
I know some competitors are using Ketone salts with mct (caprylic) but I’m not experienced how they match in the last weeks and if caprylic could enhance the process.
Is it worth it and gives support to keep burning fat when you are with very low body fat percentage? If so, how would you recommend me to use?
Thanks
Great response thank you very much.
Well, after all this I have managed to sort my competition schedule to allow me to use Nolva.
My supplies have arrived and here is the cycle I plan on doing:
W 1 D1 – Test-P 200mg x 2 morning before training and night before training
W 1 D1 – A.dex 1mg x 2 morning before training and night before training
W 1 D2 – W 7 D 5 – Test-P 100mg ED in morning
W1 D2 – W 7 D 5 – A.dex 0.5mg ED
W 1 - W 6 – HCG 250iu 3x/w M/W/F
W 7 – HCG 250iu 2x M/W
W 8 D 1 – Nolva 20mg x 6 spread through the day
W 8 D 2 – W 11 D 4 – Nolva 20mg ED
I am toying with the idea of throwing in the Alpha Male at triple dose as you mentioned but I am trying to keep everything as simple and straight forward as possible so it is easier for me as a novice to react to situations as they develop e.g. joints get sore, come off A.dex for a day then back on at 0.25mg ED. Also, it will be easier for me to assess what needs added, removed or changed if i attempt a repeat.
I would obviously welcome any observations you may have.
I would specifically like to ask you your opinion on the dose of Test-P.
Thank you so much
Hello Shadow_pro. i have been reading the post: Steroids: What Pro Bodybuilders Are Really Using. And i can see that you use nolvadex in a tren cycle! wouldnt both together increase progestin and prolactin sides.?
You understood correctly on the HCG - no the dosage is not too high - you need to understand that when you consider the dosage for this drug it’s what you get in a week, not overall. Weekly, this is considered “normal” when using juice. Back in the day before we knew better, we used to do 5000 all in one shot and it worked pretty well haha.
As for proviron, it’s great but mostly on cycle - it’s not a pct drug per say. Yes it will help but the second you’re off it, it makes your recovery harder. Use Alpha male - the goal is to get your body to create it’s own testosterone again.
Sorry this is a steroid forum - I don’t mind giving advice when it’s juice related, but this is more of a straight nutrition question. There are other forums on this site that would be a better choice for you - good luck!
I see you decided to front loading on day 1 - i honestly don’t think it will do much for you. Also using prop rather than no-ester test or suspension - there isn’t much effect on timing - it takes a few hours to kick in and stays in your blood for 36 hours roughly. If it was me, I would use suspension or no ester, but the prop will work also.
100mg test prop per day isn’t low (not super high either) but for a beginner I would probably start with 50/75 and build up in future cycles. The first and possibly second cycles are where you will get the most results from super low dosing - might as well take advantage, as you’ll have to crank up the dosages in the future to keep results.
For this dose, 0.5 arimadex per day is plenty unless side effects occur.
HCG and nolvadex are fine.
Nope. I have written a few times on this subject - take a look through. Short answer though, is no it wouldn’t. Nolvadex is used for estrogen sides, and caber is used for prolactin/progesterone sides.
Hi Shadow_Pro,
I have been following your threads since you started the first one - thanks for doing them.
I am hoping you can help me decide on dosages and duration/timing of a test e, EQ, tren a cycle that i am planning.
I am 5’9, 30 years old, 190lbs @ 11%. Dropping a bit more fat over the next 6-8 weeks before starting my cycle.
I have ran 4 cycles over the last 2.5 years when i first started AAS and they consisted of;
500mg test e wk 1-12
40mg dbol wk 1-6
500mg test e wk 1-12
50mg anavar wk 1-8
500mg test e wk 1-12
50mg tren A ED wk 3-12
750mg test e wk 1-12
50mg dbol wk 1-5
50mg NPP ED wk 3-12
I have seen that you like test/tren/eq and want to give this a try. Currently i am planning to run something along the lines of;
500mg test e wk 1-13
600mg EQ wk 1-13
100mg tren A EOD wk 1-10
My main concerns / questions are;
- Do you think dosages look ok?
- When would you run the Tren A?
- Is 13 weeks long enough for the EQ or would you rather run it for 16 with the test also?
- I could add dbol for 4 weeks at the start then add in the tren.
After cycle i go back to TRT which is 200mg test p/w. I always run HCG at 250iu 3 times a week both when on TRT and when blasting. Also arimidex gets adjusted to suit and i have Caber when running tren/nandrolone etc.
Thanks for reading.