Serious Lifters & V-Diet

Training Bodybuilding
21

It’s hard for me to imagine losing a catastrophic amount of muscle in a month, while doing abbreviated training and eating 200 grams of casein protein and loads of healthy fats. To me, the V-Diet is like an old-school contest type of short term aggressive diet.

But everybody is different… I seem to do pretty well on low carbs in general, so very low carbs is not a huge stretch (and I do a cheater’s version of the V-Diet).

Have you guys who hated the V-Diet ever gotten ripped successfully, or gotten cut up, using any short term (or long term) diet? Because (for one thing) I think it’s pretty common for guys to casually underestimate their % of body fat. Thus, they might think they need to lose 20 pounds to get ultra ripped, when it might be as much as double that (or more).

Also, some guys may not realize how dropping bodyfat can affect training poundages. I say this because I’ve seen guys comment about how getting ripped was supposedly ‘easy’ but getting big was so much harder. Getting ripped is not easy, IMO, and maybe it’s being underestimated, just how hard it really is.

Because I’ve seen very, very few guys who are really ripped, and I’ve been training for a long time. But I see tons of guys who are somewhat big and mostly shapeless/soft (and that’s what I’m trying to get away from, so i include myself in that group)… not even much defined, let alone ripped.

22

[quote]K2000 wrote:
It’s hard for me to imagine losing a catastrophic amount of muscle in a month, while doing abbreviated training and eating 200 grams of casein protein and loads of healthy fats. To me, the V-Diet is like an old-school contest type of short term aggressive diet. But everybody is different… I seem to do pretty well on low carbs in general, so very low carbs is not a huge stretch (and I do a cheater’s version of the V-Diet).

Have you guys who hated the V-Diet ever gotten ripped successfully, or gotten cut up, using any short term (or long term) diet? Because (for one thing) I think it’s pretty common for guys to casually underestimate their % of body fat. Thus, they might think they need to lose 20 pounds to get ultra ripped, when it might be as much as double that (or more).

Also, some guys may not realize how dropping bodyfat can affect training poundages. I say this because I’ve seen guys comment about how getting ripped was supposedly ‘easy’ but getting big was so much harder. Getting ripped is not easy, IMO, and maybe it’s being underestimated, just how hard it really is. Because I’ve seen very, very few guys who are really ripped, and I’ve been training for a long time.

But I see tons of guys who are somewhat big and mostly shapeless/soft (and that’s what I’m trying to get away from, so i include myself in that group)… not even much defined, let alone ripped.
[/quote]

I was weighing about 275lbs when I started it (definitely not “shapeless”) and this was not the first time I had dieted. My strength went through the floor and I dropped nothing but muscle and water weight during the 4 weeks I attempted it. NO, it is not for everyone, and I would go as far as to say if you had the genes to get your arms over 18" then you may want to try a different approach when dropping weight.

If you love it, great. I personally would rather take much longer to drop any body fat than do that approach again. I do not believe this is the way to go about dieting for the people who have actually already built themselves up and stand out in a crowd of gym goers as a result.

23

“Oh my God, I’m getting smaller”

Is there an effective short term diet that doesn’t make bodybuilders think they are shrinking? I don’t think so.

There may be a year-round ‘lifestyle’ approach to eating that is conducive to slowly gaining lean mass, or slowly losing fat while slowly adding muscle. But I don’t think it’s possible for the average bodybuilder to go on a rapid fat loss diet, and not think Oh my God, I’m shrinking.

Yeah, you probably are shrinking, because besides subcutaneous fat, you also have intramuscular fat as well. I do believe most guys underestimate their % bodyfat, and assume that once they lose the 20 pounds of subcutaneous fat they can see, they would then be (theoretically) “ripped” at 6-8-10% bodyfat. They forget about the 20 pounds of intramuscular fat that helps contribute to their mass, while in their smooth condition. Um yeah, you’re going to lose that intramuscular fat too when you’re on a diet, and you can’t tell your body to only lose subcutaneous fat, as far as I know.

24

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was weighing about 275lbs when I started it (definitely not “shapeless”)…[/quote]

I should have said “smooth” because saying shapeless implies being untrained/not muscular.

Anyway, I don’t want to argue my side too hard- I’m not an advanced bodybuilder, more like a lifetime intermediate. I am bigger than average and one of the bigger guys in my gym, but that’s not anywhere near a competitive BB’s size or condition. So, maybe not “serious” enough to qualify posting in this thread.

25

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I tried it about 3 years ago and all I did was lose a good deal of muscle mass. The calories were far too low overall. That is why, as I have stated before, I do not think it is a good idea for those carrying more muscle mass. It was like my body went into shock because all of my meals were coming from protein shakes and started dumping muscle over body fat.

Since then I have learned that I do not need to drop calories very low at all when dropping. Most of the newbies jumping on lately do not have that problem (and likely will never have that problem).[/quote]

the calorie recommendations have been bumped about 300, just an FYI.

26

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
NewDamage wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
Just wondering who where has tried the V-Diet among the serious lifter crowd. Not the “I just started working out” crowd.

I’m curious to try it about 6 weeks before my wedding for a few reasons.

  1. Drop fat quickly (while using MAG-10 to help preserve muscle)
  2. try it out in case I might recommend it to a client

You can do the V-Diet if you wish, but all I ask of you is please, please, don’t use the MAG-10 for that situation…for the love of God man they don’t make it anymore!

Yes, I was thinking that would be a huge waste of MAG-10.[/quote]

Believe me, it wouldn’t be an easy decision, but it seems many on this board feel that the V-Diet causes a good amount of muscle loss. The MAG-10 would seem to help solve this problem.
I read a post by Cy Wilson saying using MAG-10 on a LCD around 1600 would produce some quick fat loss while preserving muscle.
Just tossing some ideas around

27

[quote]K2000 wrote:
“Oh my God, I’m getting smaller”

Is there an effective short term diet that doesn’t make bodybuilders think they are shrinking? I don’t think so.

There may be a year-round ‘lifestyle’ approach to eating that is conducive to slowly gaining lean mass, or slowly losing fat while slowly adding muscle. But I don’t think it’s possible for the average bodybuilder to go on a rapid fat loss diet, and not think Oh my God, I’m shrinking.

Yeah, you probably are shrinking, because besides subcutaneous fat, you also have intramuscular fat as well. I do believe most guys underestimate their % bodyfat, and assume that once they lose the 20 pounds of subcutaneous fat they can see, they would then be (theoretically) “ripped” at 6-8-10% bodyfat. They forget about the 20 pounds of intramuscular fat that helps contribute to their mass, while in their smooth condition. Um yeah, you’re going to lose that intramuscular fat too when you’re on a diet, and you can’t tell your body to only lose subcutaneous fat, as far as I know.[/quote]

Once again, you aren’t speaking to someone new here. I know that if I drop 20lbs and my waist stays the same, that is by far NOT the usual result I see when dropping 20lbs. This is NOT the same as watching measurements go down like you often see when dieting down in excess of 20lbs.

28

Serious lifters eat serious amounts of real food and lift serious amounts of weight. The end.

29

[quote]IrishMarc wrote:

I found the diet very easy to stick to the first two weeks were great I dropped quite a bit of fat fairly quickly and didn’t lose too much strength if any however things went awry pretty fast. [/quote]

Dave pretty much said the first two weeks were okay, and Prof said it stunk.

Just playing a bit of devils advocate here I guess but…

If an intermediate/advanced guy say went a bit too far on a bulk and freaked out, would doing a two week version of the diet be an okay way to “get things in check”? Or is this diet just not for bodybuilders from word go?

30

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

Believe me, it wouldn’t be an easy decision, but it seems many on this board feel that the V-Diet causes a good amount of muscle loss. The MAG-10 would seem to help solve this problem.
I read a post by Cy Wilson saying using MAG-10 on a LCD around 1600 would produce some quick fat loss while preserving muscle.
Just tossing some ideas around
[/quote]

Get you some BCAAs and take 10-15 grams in between your meals and save the MAG-10 for building muscle.

I just think there are far too many effective fat loss plans out there that when coupled with the right supplementation will keep you from losing much, if any muscle, at least until you get to the sub 10% category. And if you’re not wanting to go that low then I don’t think you have to worry TOO much about muscle loss, provided you don’t overdo the volume and your training is structured properly.

But in terms of bang for your buck, with regards to a product that isn’t being produced anymore, I’d save the MAG-10 building muscle.

Also, I know you’ve been gaining recently, and I don’t know how soon you plan to start dieting, but be sure to take some time, 4 weeks or so maybe, to maintain your new gains or you’ll likely lose them if you jump into a diet, especially a very low kcal one (though you probably already knew that.)

31

[quote]NewDamage wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:

Believe me, it wouldn’t be an easy decision, but it seems many on this board feel that the V-Diet causes a good amount of muscle loss. The MAG-10 would seem to help solve this problem.
I read a post by Cy Wilson saying using MAG-10 on a LCD around 1600 would produce some quick fat loss while preserving muscle.
Just tossing some ideas around

Get you some BCAAs and take 10-15 grams in between your meals and save the MAG-10 for building muscle.

I just think there are far too many effective fat loss plans out there that when coupled with the right supplementation will keep you from losing much, if any muscle, at least until you get to the sub 10% category. And if you’re not wanting to go that low then I don’t think you have to worry TOO much about muscle loss, provided you don’t overdo the volume and your training is structured properly.

But in terms of bang for your buck, with regards to a product that isn’t being produced anymore, I’d save the MAG-10 building muscle.

Also, I know you’ve been gaining recently, and I don’t know how soon you plan to start dieting, but be sure to take some time, 4 weeks or so maybe, to maintain your new gains or you’ll likely lose them if you jump into a diet, especially a very low kcal one (though you probably already knew that.)

[/quote]

After doing 2-2 week cycles of MAG-10/11-T, I’m taking 4 weeks off.
I was planning on doing at least 6 weeks of maintenance, then perhaps dropping calories about 500 below maintenance and using 11-T only.

32

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
IrishMarc wrote:

I found the diet very easy to stick to the first two weeks were great I dropped quite a bit of fat fairly quickly and didn’t lose too much strength if any however things went awry pretty fast.

Dave pretty much said the first two weeks were okay, and Prof said it stunk.

Just playing a bit of devils advocate here I guess but…

If an intermediate/advanced guy say went a bit too far on a bulk and freaked out, would doing a two week version of the diet be an okay way to “get things in check”? Or is this diet just not for bodybuilders from word go?[/quote]

There is no way I would recommend someone do this diet with a good conscience aside from those who are advanced enough to simply be trying this just to see if it is compatible for them. There are too many faults, including the belief that this somehow “resets” all of your cravings as if the sedentary person used to chocolate cake daily is going to be rid of that craving for life all because of this diet.

I would much rather someone learn how to control their food intake gradually and learn long term habits than use this as some kind of restart button.

If you go a “bit too far” in gaining body fat, you put the breaks on, add a couple more days of cardio and clean up your diet a little. You don’t go on a crash diet filled with protein shakes like this unless your goal is to never have all that much muscle to start with

If you never give your body enough time to adjust to a higher body weight, you will not be breaking that weight set point. That means getting up to a weight and then freaking out and losing 20-30lbs is a sure fire way to stay small.

33

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

After doing 2-2 week cycles of MAG-10/11-T, I’m taking 4 weeks off.
I was planning on doing at least 6 weeks of maintenance, then perhaps dropping calories about 500 below maintenance and using 11-T only.

[/quote]

J-fit, no offense to you but NewDamage is right. Just use some BCAA’s and you won’t lose any muscle, don’t worry. Too put it bluntly, you aren’t big enough for your body to want to shed muscle mass on a VLCD if following any of the programs correctly (neither am I, not a diss to you at all but don’t waste the MAG-10 for something like this)

Maybe 10% of the posters on this board need to worry about serious muscle loss during one of the VLCD following the directions be it the V-Diet, rapid fat loss, etc.

Also the maintenance advice he recommends is also correct, I’ve lost some gains by freaking out because I’m getting to “fat” and then shed some fat and bye bye recent gains.

34

[quote]Professor X wrote:
countingbeans wrote:
IrishMarc wrote:

I found the diet very easy to stick to the first two weeks were great I dropped quite a bit of fat fairly quickly and didn’t lose too much strength if any however things went awry pretty fast.

Dave pretty much said the first two weeks were okay, and Prof said it stunk.

Just playing a bit of devils advocate here I guess but…

If an intermediate/advanced guy say went a bit too far on a bulk and freaked out, would doing a two week version of the diet be an okay way to “get things in check”? Or is this diet just not for bodybuilders from word go?

There is no way I would recommend someone do this diet with a good conscience aside from those who are advanced enough to simply be trying this just to see if it is compatible for them. There are too many faults, including the belief that this somehow “resets” all of your cravings as if the sedentary person used to chocolate cake daily is going to be rid of that craving for life all because of this diet.

I would much rather someone learn how to control their food intake gradually and learn long term habits than use this as some kind of restart button.

If you go a “bit too far” in gaining body fat, you put the breaks on, add a couple more days of cardio and clean up your diet a little. You don’t go on a crash diet filled with protein shakes like this unless your goal is to never have all that much muscle to start with

If you never give your body enough time to adjust to a higher body weight, you will not be breaking that weight set point. That means getting up to a weight and then freaking out and losing 20-30lbs is a sure fire way to stay small.[/quote]

See, that makes more sense to me then the diet itself does. Thanks.

I guess I kind of feel dumb about the whole thing, only because the diet is attached to this site, so I guess I assumed it was for bodybuilders. Then you hang around here, read a little, and find out, that is NOT what dudes are doing to get shredded. You look at the "testimonials’ and it is mainly people going from fat to skinny fat. Not that I have spent a whole lot of time going through people’s threads, but the ones I have looked at, not too many had more muscle than I, and I’m still pretty small.

So, that subforum pretty much proves your point for you.

35

LOL 600$+ on supplements? all you eat for a month ARE “supplements” on the V-Diet.

But if saving money is your biggest issue, knowing that as a bodybuilder you have to eat copious amounts of food, why would you want to be a bodybuilder?

36

OP: I tried the V-Diet i dont even know how long ago for a week and got very sick within the first 4 days.

I think you could easily lose a pound a week doing the traditional calorie defeceit and cardio routine.

37

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
NewDamage wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:

Believe me, it wouldn’t be an easy decision, but it seems many on this board feel that the V-Diet causes a good amount of muscle loss. The MAG-10 would seem to help solve this problem.
I read a post by Cy Wilson saying using MAG-10 on a LCD around 1600 would produce some quick fat loss while preserving muscle.
Just tossing some ideas around

Get you some BCAAs and take 10-15 grams in between your meals and save the MAG-10 for building muscle.

I just think there are far too many effective fat loss plans out there that when coupled with the right supplementation will keep you from losing much, if any muscle, at least until you get to the sub 10% category. And if you’re not wanting to go that low then I don’t think you have to worry TOO much about muscle loss, provided you don’t overdo the volume and your training is structured properly.

But in terms of bang for your buck, with regards to a product that isn’t being produced anymore, I’d save the MAG-10 building muscle.

Also, I know you’ve been gaining recently, and I don’t know how soon you plan to start dieting, but be sure to take some time, 4 weeks or so maybe, to maintain your new gains or you’ll likely lose them if you jump into a diet, especially a very low kcal one (though you probably already knew that.)

After doing 2-2 week cycles of MAG-10/11-T, I’m taking 4 weeks off.
I was planning on doing at least 6 weeks of maintenance, then perhaps dropping calories about 500 below maintenance and using 11-T only.

[/quote]

Jehova,

I am pretty sure nobody here wants to see you fail and instead wants you to maximize results from MAG-10.

A) I don’t think 4 weeks is enough to keep “new gains” ; it might be enough time to reset your metabolism/thyroid but not necessarily new muscle mass, at least not in my opinion

B) I also don’t think you’ll run into the issue of dropping tons of muscle on the V-Diet, but if I were you, I’d run the RFL diet and PM me (give me your email) about something you can use while dieting (not a steroid).

38

I’m pretty sure that Christian Thibaudeau has done the V-Diet once or twice, why not ask him in his question thread.

39

Basically, look at Shugart. That should answer your question.

40

Muscle loss during dieting when you’re carrying a lot of size is expected and unfortunate but not irreversible.
If you’ve spent a good amount of time at your heaviest bodyweight (for density/maturity) and milked your strength gains as much as possible at your heavier bodyweight (maximum muscle mass), your muscle loss (during dieting) is going to be temporary. YOu will retain a lot more size when you diet down a second time…and EVEN more if you bite the bullet and “do what you need to do” (clen, win, the usual) yes, IMO for someone who has been lifting really and carrying way more size than most people - trying to diet down au naturel EVERYTIME is not a good idea. Gear exists, use it.

I still hold on to our old school way of thinking here, but I believe that you add considerable intramuscular fat while bulking PROPERLY (as opposed to significant subcutaneous fat in a poor bulk) as I feel that the body stuffs as much of anything (fat, glycogen, fluids) as possible into the muscle cells to quickly increase leverage to match the ever-increasing load on the bar since it obviously can;t synthesize protein at the same rate - IF you’re pushing hard for strength gains. And while the intramuscular fat may come and go, the fascial stretching because of this is IMO beneficial. And as long as you hold your size and lift long enough, your muscle cells get denser and more “mature” (less intramuscular fat, less fluids, more contractile stuff etc) Thats another reason its stupid IMO to “bulk” without carbs (less material for the body to stuff inside the cells to increase strength if you don;t take in at least your PWO carbs/surge)

NOW to the OP, the V-diet is ideal for you at your current level of development, since significant muscle loss is a non-issue.