Thanks, but my question was directed to robstein regarding his comments that I quoted in my post.
(Hope you don’t mind the minor thread hijack, but it was a good exchange that I was hoping to keep alive with a few of my questions to robstein)
I was on my mobile and it was easier to ask him right here in the thread vs. trying to track down his log.
Thanks!
My bad!
I don’t mind at all, rob is one of the people who’s posts I frequently follow and who I look up to physique wise!
Looks like a very solid plan. Low fat is my approach, too, but not quite as low as you. I aim for 60g.
I feel like hunger and appetite would be an issue with so much of your protein intake coming from drinking liquid egg whites. Does the ECA offset that for you, or are you just locked in and so focused that you appetite is not an issue?
Guys here is a log of my weight progress the last lil while!
July 31st 205.6lb cals 2810
August 1st 205.3lb cals 2795
August 2nd 207.2lb cals 2522
august 3rd 206.5lb cals 2460
august 4th 205.6lb cals 2295
august 5th 204.5lb cals 2295
august 6th 204.4lb cals 2295
august 7th 203.5lb cals 2295
august 9th 204.5lb cals 2295
august 10th 203.4lb cals 2430
august 11th 202.4lb cals 2235
august 12th 201.5lb cals 2235
august 13th 199.8lb cals 2235
august 14th 198.6lb cals 2235
august 15th 198.2lb cals 2585
august 16th 199.4lb cals 2235
It seems the ECA stack doesn’t effect my hunger much at all except for the first two or three days I used it.
I am really focused and dialed in, bodybuilding has become my life so I have absolutely no problem on low caloric intake.
Honestly, I am more comfortable eating 2200 cals a day than I am bulking on 4600 a day, and I have to put much more effort into diet when bulking than I do when I am cutting, I Guess I’m the opposite of most people in that regard!
If I could do one thing over, I would have started with higher carbs and maybe a little lower protein, seems like each cut I do I lean more higher carb lower protein and each cut is better than the last!
My next tweak will be increasing evening HIIT sessions (just 4 minute “tabata” style workouts) up to every other day at the most, and that’s probably the most I will raise my cardio. IF I have to push past that amount, I will just add 15 min to my fasted liss an 10 min to my post workout cardio.
I prefer to add cardio than to drop cals, I DO NOT want my cals under 2k! I feel there is no need to be lower than 2k cals when not cutting for a contest.
If I had hunger and appetite issues, I would switch the egg white liquid with things like chicken and fish! I also don’t count my veggies, so when I’m hungry I whip up a wicked veg bowl!
Would you mind going over my last couple posts and giving me your advice on my “next card to play” in regards to fat loss?
My plan was to incorporate “tabata” style hiit in the form of jump squats and sprints. Right now I Do it once a week, was going to up it to every other day when I stall out, and try and keep from dropping cals lower than 2235 for as long as I can.
I could also increase my morning LISS from 30 to 45 min and my postworkout cardio from 20min to 30 min!
I do a refeed with 140 carbs added (1cup brown rice) but 10 fats removes and 30 protein removed, resulting in 350 calories extra about once every 5-7 days, as I feel I need it!
@shreddedbaby of course, always happy to offer my .02 bro.
If you’re used to doing tabata style and it works for you, that’s all good. Personally, on a hard cut down to super low body fat, I wouldn’t do tabata style, because it’s just too much of a wrecker. Weekly leg training, daily cardio plus tabata HIIT I think might do more harm than good on a long and intense deficit, especially as body fat gets lower. I think throwing in a tabata style every now and then might be beneficial, but just my thoughts, I’d stick to more traditional HIIT methods like bike sprints or something, and I definitely would avoid doing tabata every other day. If you’re weight training daily, PLUS tabata every other day, PLUS LISS, I think you’ll dig yourself into the ground. Possibly try experimenting with keeping your weekly tabata, and other HIIT sessions, maybe try bike sprints or something? I usually do my HIIT on the elliptical because it’s easier on the joints and provides full body resistance.
IMO this might be a better way to go. I’m not saying you shouldn’t add more HIIT, typically two weekly HIIT sessions are common on a cut, but adding some passive LISS cardio is always helpful for a straight calorie burn. I also started taking yohimbine towards the end of my last prep before morning fasted cardio, which really helped get the last bit of stubborn fat off. Post workout cardio I’d limit to 30min, but morning cardio could always be raised.
Good stuff, refeeds are definitely important! As you get leaner you may find more frequent refeeds are helpful, maybe one every 4 days or so.
How much do you weigh again? Protein seems very high, unnecessarily high. If it’s working for you, that’s all good. Typically protein is 1g-1.2g per pound, fats are 20-30%, the rest is carbs. By lowering protein, you’ll give yourself more room for carbs and fats. I’d definitely recommend raising fats a little bit, 35 is very very low. I went on stage at 140lbs and kept my fats at minimum 40g per day, but wound up upping them to about 60g per day and I felt much better. Remember that fats help keep hormones regulated, including testosterone! So, raising fats may actually help speed up fat loss.
As far the as “the next card to play,” there aren’t really and hard and fast rules of “do this next” type thing. It seems like you’re very detailed and analytical, which is awesome and important in this sport especially when getting down to low body fat. Small adjustments are key. If you’re stalled out, increase LISS a little bit, lower cals slightly, eventually maybe add one more HIIT session, etc. You obviously don’t have a problem with consistency, so if you execute numerous small changes, they all add up.
Hope this helps, please always feel free to tag with any questions or updates 
Thanks for the opinions! The warning against too much tabata makes sense, I Will raise my morning liss and raise my postworkout to 30 min next adjustment! Thank you bro!
When it comes to macros, You suggest lowering protein and raising fats. I know fats can regulate testosterone, but I am on AAS and take exogenous testosterone, so i’m not really concerned about that! I know on AAS I can make use of more protein than someone who isn’t, I am gaining siginifigant calf mass during this cut from all the incline walking, and actually gaining in my glutes and hams as well!
\While I do firmly believe someone on AAS should consume signifigantly more protein than someone who isn’t, due to the fact we can use more, I do agree it is probably too high. If I could start over I would go from 250-260g protein and higher carbs, but it feels like a step backwards to drop protein and raise carbs now.
I am comfortable with my fats at 35 though, I feel great and they are all high quality fats.
So you feel that even a few weeks in I should cut my protein and raise my carbs? OR maybe next calorie drop just subtract from protein instead of carbs? I’m leaning to leaving it for now, and subtracting 40g protein and 10g carbs next calorie drop for a 200 calorie drop. Thoughts on this??
I am currently 198lb and just over 11% bf. I started this cut at about 212.
Thanks for all your advice it really is very helpful! You and the mighty stu are two guys whos posts I read, I Actually frequently click on your name and read your entire post history! You are really knowledgeable about bodybuilding and I appreciate you being in my thread!
So basically the question is, to “juggle cals” and replace protein with carbs now?
OR to leave it and take 40g protein and 10g carbs off next cal drop? I think I am going to do the second option, but ID love to hear your opinion and your logic behind it!
Heres a question for ya Rob!
As you know, my current carb intake on this cut is 190g!
My meal one is egg whites and half cup brown rice 40p 70c
Then I workout, and my post workout Is 120g from white blueberry bagels.
I’ve heard convincing research that low GI carbs post workouts are bad idea, basically because you get all the negatives of carbs, but none of the positives of high GI carbs post workout, so its best to do JUST protein or protein and HIGH GI carbs.
Do you think I have too much of my daily intake in HIGH GI carbs? The ONLY Time I ever eat a high GI carb is directly post workout, do you think I Should increase my pre workout carbs, and decrease post workout hi GI carbs to 60? OR should I Do TWO pre workout rice meals at 95g each, and cut out post workout carbs entirely? What do you think is best for fat loss AND maintaining muscle mass?
Really interested to hear your opinion on this!
EDIT:
Basically my current ideas are:
OPTION A) Leave it the same, 70g low gi pre workout, 120 high gi post workout.
OPTION B) Up pre workout to 100-130g low gi, and put the remaining 90-60g high gi post workout.
OPTION C) Put TWO pre workout meals at around 95g low GI carbs each, and no carbs post workout at all, just protein.
ALL low gi carbs are brown rice, and the high GI is white bagels.
OR do you have a different idea? I’m open to whatever you think is best!
@shreddedbaby, happy to help man, thanks for the kind words!
Regarding high and low GI carbs, remember that the GI is mostly irrelevant if you’re eating the carbs with something else. If you eat a cup of white rice with steak and veggies, the protein and fibrous carbs from the veggies will slow the digestion of the rice. That being said, it can still make a difference when you get down to the details, and everyone has different sensitivities to carb sources. So, to play it safe, continue sticking with low GI carbs, except for post workout.
Regarding your low GI carbs, don’t be afraid to vary it up. On my prep carb sources included Ezekiel Bread, organic sprouted puffed rice cereal, apples, blueberries, and oats. Cream of Rice was my pre and post workout carb. Your total daily carb allowance will have the biggest impact on your results.
I think this is alright, 70g carbs is plenty pre workout, and 120 is certainly enough post workout. If you’re having carbs throughout the day and before your workout you’ll have plenty of fuel and glycogen ready to go.
Sounds like a smart move, you’ve certainly got the room to drop protein and still get plenty. I don’t know much about AAS, but I do understand the need for plenty of protein to take advantage of it. 250g should still be enough I would think.
At your current macros I think that’d be fine, you’d still be getting more than enough protein and you may notice better performance with the addition of more carbs.
Thanks for the reply! I have actually switched up the macros a little bit, with a slight calorie drop over all.
250 protein, 220 carbs, 35 fat. 2195 calories currently.
I’m going to do probably only one more calorie drop which will be about 50g carbs when I get under 10% or so. That’s the plan so far anyways, but as you know things change every 20 minutes!
I can get this down in 6 meals instead of 7, which makes things a little easier! I upped my pre workout carbs to 90g brown rice, and am keeping 130g post high gi white carbs post workout I suppose, based on your post!
I know I didn’t “need” more carbs directly pre workout, but I like to keep ALL my carbs directly pre and post workout when cutting! I get MORE energy than I need from my ephedrine/caffeine anyways, so I like the idea of switching to only fat/protein at 1pm.
Since I have a good amount of carbs post workout, then from 1pm on i basically consume 160g protein and 30g fats for the rest of the day, do you think that’s so much protein and so little else that my body will switch to running on protein?
I think my post workout carbs and small fat intake SHOULD be enough that I don’t run off protein, right? That would be my ONLY reason to up the fats, to stop my body from consuming my aminos for energy, cause otherwise I feel great right now with my fats at 35.
Thanks for all your help bro, much appreciated!
By the way I know these questions are insignificant and small details, but as you know it all adds up and I’m a super analytical guy. i figure IF I can get all the 0.05% differences to work in my favor, it will add up to 5-10% faster progress, and that’s worth the effort to me!
Thanks ROB!
Okay, here’s the real lowdown on GI and carbs.,.
at the end of the day, in terms of carbs vs carbs, it doesn’t make a difference. Brad @BrickHead can pop in here and cite all sorts of studies if anyone wants, but in terms of net carbs, and that they’re all broken down to the same tiny pieces, it doesn’t matter. People tend to prefer the lower GI ones because they’re usually higher in fiber, and provide more satiety which can keep you much more sane when you’re dieting and feel like you’re hungry all the time. The flipside is that when you’re trying to eat a much larger amount of carbs, and you’re having difficulty, the smart crowd will opt for foods with less fiber, as they’re less filling and easier to get more of. (Also, as Rob mentioned, combining macros will slow digestion of even typically quick digesting carb sources!)
Now, IMO the main reason why anyone should really care about certain GI foods at certain times, especially a competitor or anyone serious enough to realize that they don’t want to lose LBM while dieting… Performance in the gym is absolutely f-cking key to any smart cut!
People used to ask why I’d keep my carbs lowish and spread out throughout the day just so I could eat a ton leading into my training session, and it was because when I felt like a million bucks, I attacked those weights like my life depended on it, even in the far reaches of a prep.
Also, the somewhat outdated approach of trying to take advantage of the “post workout window” in replenishing your glycogen stores… understand how many grams of glycogen the typically muscles adult male has on any given day (500-600 on average I believe). Now, think about how difficult it is to actually deplete enough that you actually can physically notice it. That’s right, you won’t notice a thing if you’ve eaten even remotely sensibly during that day or even the day before. So if you’re dividing up your big hit of carbs between your pre and post instead of having more pre, or even having more during the day so you feel better and more energetic, you might want to reconsider your approach.
Hope this helps a bit!
S
What about the effects of insulin based on eating high or low GI carbs and utilizing this effect with nutrient timing? I understand these can be small benefits, but I believe all these “Small” things add up.
I have been considering moving the majority of carbs to pre workout from post workout though.
I feel like you are only looking at part of the issue here though. YES all carbs convert to the exact same thing, but ON THIS JOURNEY they are creating different insulin responses, different responses in the metabolism, and (i think) result in other hormonal changes! What do you think about this concept? That even though they are the “Same thing” they produce different effects that could be considered “secondary” but are still directly dependant.
What about the concept of low GI carbs being a bad idea post workout, the optimal thing being either high GI or just protien.
I was listening to Ben pakulski and his nutritionist in a video on this stating that low GI carbs post workout will give you the negative effects of carbs only, where as high GI “fast carbs” will give you the insulin spike and really rev your metabolism when eaten post workout also causing positive hormonal changes (not 100% about that hormonal part I Think i remember something like that though). They state that ANY carbohydrate post workout does NEGATIVE things, such as shuts down natural hgh production and the fat burning effect that is happening. Considering all this, consuming HIGH GI carbs would have a good AND bad effect but are still worth it, where as low GI Carbs have the same negative effect with NONE of the positive insulin or metabolism revving effects.
I know one can argue that protein/fats will be skewing the actual results of low/hi GI Carbs so they disregard it completely, but keep in mind we are (or at least I am) consuming extremely fast digesting protein with our carbs post workout and no fat (under 1.5g total).
I find people commonly discredit the high/low GI thing because we eat other food with carbs, but in this case its just a fast digesting protein.
Do you just deem these differences (insulin production and timing of this, effect on metabolism, possible other hormonal effects) as not worth micromanaging, or you believe that the amount of insulin released and the timing of insulin does not matter?
I’m just confused at the fact that you seem to believe these things hold no weight at all.
I was under the impression that insulin manipulation through carbohydrate timing and type of carbohydrate was an important thing, and I know that the insulin timing will be dictated solely by the carbohydrate when consumed with an extremely fast acting protein.
I’m not trying to debate with you, it’s just that I value your opinion and find it to be drastically different then what I believe and what some other people who’s opinions I also value believe.
I don’t think the importance of insulin is refute-able, nor is the fact that when combined with a fast acting protein powder that the type of GI of the carb will dictate the size of insulin spike and it’s rate of acceleration and deceleration. Since I doubt you disagree with these things, you must think its just too small of a difference to mean much?
Please elaborate on these specifics, thank you so much for your time I Really appreciate it.
sorry the post is longer than I intended, but these conflicting opinions really are confusing me!
I am very glad you point this out considering how seemingly few people realize this, with some believing that if they under ate for a day, they will lose muscle or perform so poorly.
To be direct, I believe this concept is bunk. Barely discernible or insignificant changes in hormones from eating foods are not worth fussing over so long as someone is eating an adequate diet with appropriate food choices. And when I say adequate, I mean adequate for a sane contest prep as well.
Is this guy really saying that god knows how many bodybuilders who drove home after a workout to eat meat and rice or potatoes had it wrong? I got cut to ribbons and lost no muscle mass (even gained some in some areas and I am not a genetic freak) on a prep in which some of my dinners after workouts consisted of a large salad, steak, and an apple!
There are many “nutritionists” out there, who although might have had success in coaching people and despite saying silly things, have this success because they are doing things right, but at the same time criticizing what others are doing right.
There are even dietitians with academic degrees and registration to practice in healthcare who believe and say silly shit.
And where did they find this out? And if they did, how does barely discernible effect or actual shutdown effect muscle growth or maintenance? It doesn’t.
There is no negative effect and the way to have a metabolism revving is to have a caloric decrease and physical activity.
Right. There’s no need to micromanage this and the hormonal responses from training and eating are negligible.
Right.
Keep in mind, I am not answering for Stu, but he did prep me for me for my show in which I was shredded and he himself has gotten shredded for shows in a five year time span, and if I recall correctly, in that time frame, there was only ONE show in which he might have been able to be sharper and he was aware of this. And that was not because of beliefs we’re discussing here. Keep in mind he was also enormous for a 5’8" natural bodybuilder, and again, it’s not because of the beliefs we discuss here.
Again, keep in mind, even highly ranking bodybuilders and athletes say false things about nutrition. Even Scott Mendelson in a video once said fruit is not good for us because it’s “pure sugar” and that there is no difference between a Snicker’s bar and a piece of fruit.
Also, the jackass team from Six Pack-whatever You Tube channel once made a video in which apples are a no-go food.
I guess Dorian Yates, Jay Cutler, Markus Ruhl, and the like, who all ate shit tons of fruit throughout the years didn’t get the memo.
Let’s touch upon other bunk stuff that even men with great physiques preach:
We know you’re not trying to debate.
Okay guys, slightly edited diet and cardio routine, workout routine with weights stays the same. I’m probably going to get the over training talk again, and I do appreciate all comments that are constructive criticism, but I AM going to try this out and see what I Can handle. DAILY HIIT, but before you explode in a rush to tell me not to, here me out, its pretty mild for hiit.
*HIIT session will be only THREE UNTIMES SPRINTS, basically as long as I Can sprint for 100% effort (i’m not the most conditioned guy, the first is about 17 seconds, the second about 13 and the last about 9-10), the rest in between is walking, also untimes, approx. 1.5-2minutes. I believe in untimed HIIT because unless you re very advanced, its VERY hard to hit ACTUAL 90%+ effort for a set time limit, a lot of people call 60%+ effort HIIT and that’s just not accurate, which is why I think some people do not get the results they seek.
This will be daily, and i will likely have to cut down to EOD but I’m taking the plunge for at least a week, lets see how far I Can push myself! I find that when I Really push myself, even against advice, is when I really progress. I was told my workouts were too much, but i took the plunge and got the best results I ever have. I know this time may be too far, but I’m going to find out for myself, not wonder “what if”
-Wake up 5am, take ephedrine 24mg and caffeine 200mg.
-5:30 am, 45 minutes LISS speed walking cardio on track.
-7:00am, 60C/40P/5F from a whole wheat bagel, egg whites (raw), fish oil
-9:00am, Very short and Mild HIIT session* explained above, lasts about 7min on the track
-10:30am, 90C/40P/5F from brown rice, chicken, broccoli, fish oils (pre workout)
-12:00pm, Workout
-1:30pm, 70C/50P/2.5F from white bagel, raw eggwhite or protein pow, incidental fats
The rest of the day contains 3 meals that are each 40P/0C, and the first two are 5F and the last meal is 12.5F
Total macros 250P/220C/35F, 2195 calories.
If performance suffers a bit after 2-3 days, I will up my post workout to 100 bringing total carb to 220.
Let me know whatcha think guys, I know you are gonna say too much and I will wear myself out, which I do believe is the most likely outcome! However, I want to find my limits for myself so I really do know exactly how far I Can push myself! I find the more I get to know my body’s limits, the more I progress. I find pushing that last 5% of effort that I am able to push accounts for like 20% more results, because that’s where the body is FORCED to adapt by EXTREME STRESS, because it thinks it is in danger!
Thanks for all the help boys!
PS, do you mind me tagging you in my update posts? IF you do I Can stop 
I just value your opinions! I’ve read most of your posts and all of Stu’s posts on this forum!
Thanks a lot for that post! It is very nice to be able to discuss this stuff, agree and did agree and not have it be a confrontational thing. I know you guys understand that this is for my education, not “whos right”, but it seems a lot of people on forums don’t see things this way 
I respectfully disagree that manipulating insulin has no effect, just because of the fact that exogenous insulin is such a great tool, that it makes me think even minute amounts of insulin make a difference. ALSO, the presence of insulin makes HGH scarce, which is something to consider!
That being said, I REALLY appreciate your comment, and you (and STU) are slowly bringing me around to your way of thinking!
Right now, I still believe some of the concepts I have outlined, but you guys are slowly convincing me that they matter more to the tune of like 0.005% of results, not like 1%.
I Really appreciate these comments, this is what I signed up on forums for!
It does make sense that nutritionists take something that makes the SLIGHTEST difference and really exaggerate this difference, so that they have something to promote and teach! The more complicated the “industry” can make bodybuilding seem, the more profit they can make off of supplements and training and programs etc
You guys are really opening the doors to some new concepts for me, and I Could not be more grateful!
You and Stu have single handedly made big differences in my beliefs, and I really appreciate it, really, more than I Can put into words bro!
Have a really good day man you guys rock!
Keep the “Mas Macros” coming, and feel free to comment on my thread anytime!!
Damn good info here @BrickHead!
Yep! You Rob, Stu, and Brickhead are my three go to guys for information on this forum.
I Really appreciate the help and opinions of all three of you guys! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with me! I’m a lucky guy to have you guys on this forum, as is everyone else.
I’m going to get started on the rest of rob’s posts now, I love the way you can read all of a posters history on this forum it’s great!