Getting Below 9% BF

Nutrition
1

I’m stuck. I want to get to 9% or less body fat. I’m at 10.5% right now (at 190 lb / 6’0’'). Here’s what I’ve done…

Aug1-31: V-Diet (16%->~13%)
Sept-Oct23: Get Shredded Diet (13->10.5%)
Oct24-now: maintenance

My current caliper readings are:

20mm - abdomen
13mm - supraciliac
9.5mm - subscapular
12mm - thigh
6mm - chest
7mm - triceps

So 10-11 weeks of dieting, 2 weeks of maintenance, and now I’m back to cutting again because I’m not as lean as I want to be. So far so good, but now it’s really tough because:

A) I’ve never been this lean before, so to go even lower is going to be incredibly tough and
B) I’m already pretty dialed in on what to do, but it’s not working, and I think the thermogenics are wearing off/I’m getting used to them/I’m running out of my 30 day supply and I don’t think it’s a good idea to do another round of thermos.

So here’s what I’m doing now, and I want to know what I should do differently if anything.

NUTRITION

BREAKFAST (9:30 am)
4 eggs
1 tbsp dried onion
.25 small red pepper
.25 avocado
5 fish oil capsules

LUNCH (1:45 pm)
8 oz chicken
2 oz spinach
1/2 cup blueberries
1 small tomato
.5 small zucchini
1 cup coconut milk
1 tbsp apple cider vinegar
5 fish oil capsules

PRE-WORKOUT (6 pm)
10g bcaa, 5g creatine
2 bottles chocolate milk + 1 tbsp honey
(CT recommended I use .75g carb/lb bodyweight pre-workout)

PERI-WORKOUT
20g BCAA in 1L water

POST-WORKOUT
15g L-Leucine in 1L water

DINNER (9pm)
8 oz ground turkey
2 oz spinach
2 oz broccoli
2 oz cauliflower
1 oz shiitake mushroom
1 tbsp apple cider vinegar

PREBED (midnight)
4 eggs
1 tbsp dried onion
.25 avocado
.25 green pepper
1 tbsp coconut oil
1 handful walnuts/pumpkin seeds
5 fish oil
1 serving Superfood

WORKOUT WEEK

2 hrs strength training (1 upper day, 1 lower day)
12 min HIIT after upper day
1 hr of complexes (2 sessions / week)
~60 min steady state cardio (after complexes)

Beyond the supplements listed, I’m finishing up a 30 day supply of a thermo/green tea mix.

What do I need to do to break this plateau? I feel like I’m doing everything right but if that was the case, I’d be still getting leaner. Perhaps cortisol is high because of my high ab fat ratings? Maybe I need Phosphatidylserine and Glycine? Sesamin? I’m also planning on moving over to CTs peri-workout nutrition protocol (FINiBARs, Surge Workout Fuel, beta alanine, etc). More cardio? What do I need to do to kick start the fat loss again now that I’m out of my maintenance weeks?

Thanks!

2

I have no idea what the rest of your day is like, and I’m defiantly not an expert, but in one summer (before I started Olympic Weightlifting) I went from being 5’10 175lbs at 11% body fat, down to 5’10 175lbs at 7.5% body fat.

I never really gained or lost any meaningful amounts of weight, but I was CONSTANTLY training. As in, lifting 3 times a week, agility and sprinting 3 times a week and running A LOT (occasionally 3 kilometers twice in one day). And the funny thing is that looking back on it, I was eating like shit (pop-tarts, weight-gainers, pizza, candy bars etc.), took NO special supplements (except for the weight_gainer) and probably wasn’t training very smart, but at the same time, I was consistently eating 6-7 meals or snacks a day.

Obviously I did not have a job at this time nor did I have many other responsibilities, but maybe if you try taking the same amount of food/calories that you are eating and find a way to split it up to include 1 extra meal a day, it could help you to lean out a little more.

GOOD LUCK.

3

Disclaimer – I’m not even close to 9%.

That said, your diet looks pretty clean to me. You could just try to grind it out – meaning try to keep your current level of calories and protein/carb/fat ratios – and give it some time. Maybe try to add some NEPA (like a 30 minute walk.) But I think I’d try and lower your calories by 10% for a week – and see how it goes.

I’d probably replace the blueberries with something green, and/or cut back on the chocolate milk. Or just shave a few grams off of everything – you’d probably hardly miss it.

4

Acel- feel free to take to PM, but how was the GSD for you?

I’m on Day 4 currently and it’s not as bad as I thought. Hunger is a minor issue. Energy levels aren’t too bad.

I’m not a veggie person, so those have been limited for me and I’ve been doing 3 scoops of Superfood to help.

Were there any supplements you didn’t use that Berardi recommended? I’m waiting on ZMA to get back in stock and I’m not doing Power Drive yet.

What was your routine like during the diet?

Sorry if this sidetracks your thread, just PM me if you want.

5

Thanks for the suggestions. For the first comment – clearly GFlux was your help. You worked out a ton, and ate a ton, so you were (without realizing it) adopting Berardi’s GFlux principles. That’s my inclination, is to just do (and eat) more.

For the second: yes, maybe drop the blueberries, but they’re so good for you, I have a hard time not including them, and they provide a unique nutrient/antioxidant set that many green veggies don’t possess. I also walk to and from work every day, so that’s my 30 min of daily NEPA.

Jehovah: to answer your questions:

-After doing V-Diet, GSD is easy. A ton of whole, tasty food is just super easy after coming off a solely-liquid, bland diet. All of that dietary fat keeps my energy up. And now I’m at the point where high carbs outside of the workout window actually make me tired. In fact, I may use carbs only at the END of te day from now on if I need to be tired / get a daily carb load in (ie the PWO meal).

But you can’t do it more than 6 weeks because you just can’t operate on that little calories too long or it starts to become detrimental to your goals.

-Jehovah, I’ve read many of your posts and I have to say, you are WAY to reliant on supplements. You seem to be the first to jump on a new supplement as a panacea for a sub-optimal diet (“I’m not a veggie person”), but it’s not working because I haven’t seen you make much progress over the past few months/years.

Perhaps focusing more on diet than supplements you might yield greater returns. I eat at least 7 servings of veggies a day, a serving of fruit, and I’ve definitely decided that whole food will trump any super supplement. Last night I had literally a pound of veggies after my workout…it was just a mountain of spinach, broccoli, cauliflower and zucchini topped with turkey and salsa. You can’t be a “non veggie person” and expect do diet with any sort of long-term success.

So to answer your question on what supplements I used, I didn’t use Power Drive or a ZMA. My intake of zinc and magnesium before bed was from a full serving of walnuts and pumpkin seeds, both of which are high in zinc and magnesium. I stuck to a standard multi in the morning, so between that, all of my veggies, a greens powder and the nuts, I have a very complete vitamin/mineral profile. What I did use were:

-creatine
-bcaa (& leucine)
-thermogenics (every other week)
-green tea/ecgc (the off weeks from thermos)
-health supplements (fish oil, multi, greens)

I’m finish up my thermos and green tea, as well as the BCAAs, my plan for the next round is to use CT’s protocol for Workout nutrition, so whatever products I need to accomplish that I’ll buy, but on top of that I’m considering:

-more green tea/caffeine
-glycine
-p-serine
-sesamin
-cla

I will not do thermos again. A great deal of those ingredients have been shown to be detrimental to the body, but the above supplements I am considering are either all-natural or simply make you healthier and show no negative side-effects.

-Finally, my routine during GSD has been CT’s War Room Strategies for maximizing fat loss.

6

Can you specify what type of training you are doing, weightlifting wise. Meaning, how many exericises, sets and reps per body part. I have some ideas that may help you, but in general my diet suggestions may differ depending on your training or vice versa.

7

[quote]acelement wrote:

-Finally, my routine during GSD has been CT’s War Room Strategies for maximizing fat loss.[/quote]

that’s what I’m doing as well. Except for the alactic work (sprints). Figured right now being so low carb I’ll stick to just LSD cardio. And perhaps sprints on my refeed day.

8

[quote]elusive wrote:
Can you specify what type of training you are doing, weightlifting wise. Meaning, how many exericises, sets and reps per body part. I have some ideas that may help you, but in general my diet suggestions may differ depending on your training or vice versa.[/quote]

Thanks for taking an interest! Here’s what I’m currently doing…I JUST switched exercises so my OLD exercises will be in parentheses…

MON - Chest/back && 10-12 min of HIIT
A) Floor press (DB press)
5x4, ramping up the weight w/ each set
A2) Low-cable crossover - from the bottom and briging to eye level (cable press)
5x8, rest 2 min then go to…
B1) Weighted Close-grip chinups on a rope (wide-grip Pull ups)
5x4
B2) Rope pull to neck (cable rows from a high-pulley, arms crossed)
C) circuit of dips and incline db curls for 5 sets of 5 reps
rest 2 min, then repeat back to A 5-6 times, depending on how I feel (hence the 5 sets for everything)

TUES - Legs & 20-30 min steady-state cardio
A) Front squat (front squat)
5x4
A2) Single-leg leg extension (single-leg leg press)
5x8
B1) Romanian deadlift (rom dead)
5x4
B2) Glute bridges (leg curl)
5x8

THURS - Complexes & 20-30 min steady-state cardio
before I was doing stuff outlined in the War Room Stategies For Fat Loss, but it became really annoying and boring, so I switched to complexes outlined in a recent T-Nation article. Thursday’s current complex is like 95 lbs on a barbell, do 8 big-lift exercises, and do it for 6 reps for the first set, 5 reps for the 2nd…all the way down to a single rep for each exercise.

SAT - Complexes (v 2) & 20-30 min steady-state cardio
this complex is another one from that recent article, though this time its w/ a 45 lb plate that the NFL player does in the article. I dunno, they both look pretty hard, but simple is what I’m going for and I’m more likely to stick with something simple that I don’t have to change weights with often.

SO that’s what I’m doing for training, more specifically.

9

If you’re fixed on training that way (which is fine) I would only suggest to add steady state cardio in the morning for at least 40mins, fasted before breakfast (if possible) and maybe eliminate your pre workout carbs. At this point its more of a waiting game. Progress will come slower and will be harder to see from day to day, especially if your water weight goes up and down normally.

10

That’s the thing – I’m not fixed on anything (diet OR training) with one exception:

CT specifically recommended I do .75g carb / lb bodyweight preworkout, and then everything outside of that should be <50g carbs. I’m going to trust him on this and try it out for a while.

But I have no attachment to the training other than the War Room Strategies for Fat Loss seems like a very convincing training program. I trust CT’s judgment and so I’m inclined to believe that this article’s training program works.

If you have suggestions, believe me, I’m not fixed on training that way. If all of this information I have provided might give you the insight for me to do better…I’m all for it!

I do believe I should be adding morning fasted cardio, and I’m considering waking up earlier to fit more of that in. I also forgot ot mention I do 12 min of HIIT after my chest workouts.

And yes, because of the creatine, my weight and softness does fluctuate via water, so I’ve learned to ignore the scale and rely on the calipers/mirror.

Q: How much morning fasted cardio do you think I should add?

11

I would first start by removing the 20-30min sessions and placing them in the morning for at least 40mins. Then eventually add another session.

The thing is, you’ve gotten this far by yourself. You know what you should do, trust your judgement. You basically have to start eating less or start doing more or both.

12

elusive,

Do you think a 2 week break from dieting is enough? I’m talking hard dieting. I personally think OP would need a good 8 weeks eating at maintenance with less overall physical activity. Maybe even jump start another fat loss phase with a week of really high caloric intake to boost his metabolism. Again, I’m not the guru here, but it’s my observation. Could his thyroid need a longer break?

What do you think about the idea that the body could possibly use stored fat for fuel if mostly fat is consumed pre-workout (instead of carbs) ? Like, say, a TBSP of olive oil or handful of walnuts before the workout with a half scoop of protein powder.

OP,

What about eating Anabolic Diet style (weekly carb ups) and doing the fasted cardio? I’m sorry if I didn’t read all of what you wrote and if your dieting strategy is already similar to this suggestion. Just curious.

You could also try two things:

Post in CT’s forum about your situation.

Post in the latest Shelby Starnes article discussion to get his opinion on what to do next.

Good luck and please keep us updated.

13

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
elusive,

Do you think a 2 week break from dieting is enough? I’m talking hard dieting. I personally think OP would need a good 8 weeks eating at maintenance with less overall physical activity. Maybe even jump start another fat loss phase with a week of really high caloric intake to boost his metabolism. Again, I’m not the guru here, but it’s my observation. Could his thyroid need a longer break?[/quote]

Obviously not elusive, but in my experience working with clients, such a protocol is vastly overkill.

A week of maintenance work is the most I’d have him do since it’s not like he’s been practically starved in a labor camp.

The same or better effect could be had by just having the protein prior to training, or training in a fasted state, but I think doing so is counterproductive for the vast majority of trainees, unless your focus is endurance training, since the benefits of carbs pre-workout far outweigh not having them even in fat-loss phase.

The only exception I’ve seen to this is the last week or so of a pre-contest phase where athletes need to get ripped to a level that can not be maintained.

14

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
elusive,

Do you think a 2 week break from dieting is enough? I’m talking hard dieting. I personally think OP would need a good 8 weeks eating at maintenance with less overall physical activity. Maybe even jump start another fat loss phase with a week of really high caloric intake to boost his metabolism. Again, I’m not the guru here, but it’s my observation. Could his thyroid need a longer break?

What do you think about the idea that the body could possibly use stored fat for fuel if mostly fat is consumed pre-workout (instead of carbs) ? Like, say, a TBSP of olive oil or handful of walnuts before the workout with a half scoop of protein powder.

[/quote]

Two weeks of eating at maintenance could be enough, I’m not sure. He’ll find out. I try to set up my diets so that I don’t need to take a break from them and I can just cruise through them. This is why I love refeeds. I asked him about his training because if his volume was high enough throughout the week, I would have suggested something like I did back in March/April with the weekly refeeds.

Its just tough to give advice at this point (advice suggesting refeeds or something drastic) because hes already been dieting for a while and who knows how his body has adapted or adjusted.

As for having fats before training to continue to burn fats during training. I don’t like that idea. It doesn’t make sense to me physiologically. Your body will use whatever is most convienant at the moment for fuel, which in the case of weightlifting is mostly glucose.

I would see the body just putting the Olive oil through beta oxidation, then start breaking down glycogen for glucose. I’m no expert though, thats just my opinion.

OP, I do like Ponce’s suggestions of asking CT and Shelby directly. Since you are following CT’s protocols it would make sense to run it by him. Shelby, well… Shelby is just the man.

15

[quote]HK24719 wrote:
The same or better effect could be had by just having the protein prior to training, or training in a fasted state, but I think doing so is counterproductive for the vast majority of trainees, unless your focus is endurance training, since the benefits of carbs pre-workout far outweigh not having them even in fat-loss phase.
[/quote]

I agree. Out of all possible combos to have pre workout (Protein/carbs, Protein/fats or just Protein), I would have Protein/fats last on my list. I would rather just consume protien for a better fatloss effect. I do however feel that fear of muscle loss during fatloss is often over stated so I’m not worried about having just protein pre-workout.

Personally, I handle carbs very well (and so does most of the people I train with/give diet advice too, hmm?) and I find that I just do better all around if I consume carbs at breakfast and/or pre workout, at least.

16

[quote]PonceDeLeon:
What about eating Anabolic Diet style (weekly carb ups) and doing the fasted cardio? I’m sorry if I didn’t read all of what you wrote and if your dieting strategy is already similar to this suggestion. Just curious.

You could also try two things:

Post in CT’s forum about your situation.

Post in the latest Shelby Starnes article discussion to get his opinion on what to do next.

Good luck and please keep us updated.
[/quote]

I have been using weekly carb-ups and continue to plan on using them. Essentially the Get Shredded Diet has them every 2 weeks, but I was lean enough that I found benefit using it every week for one day.

I have posted in CT’s forum and he just told me low carb during the day (50g) and .75g carb / lb bodyweight pre-workout. Carbs pre-workout DEFINITELY improves my workouts, so the protocol I have listed in my first post outlines how I distribute my carbs and proteins, so I am all for pre-workout carbs and refeed days.

I can try Shelby I guess…

17

[quote]acelement wrote:

-Jehovah, I’ve read many of your posts and I have to say, you are WAY to reliant on supplements. You seem to be the first to jump on a new supplement as a panacea for a sub-optimal diet (“I’m not a veggie person”), but it’s not working because I haven’t seen you make much progress over the past few months/years.

[/quote]

coming from the guy that lived on Biotest supps for a month, gotcha! :smiley:

18

ps- kudos on completing it though. After 3 days I couldn’t handle it. My stomach was a mess

19

Also far away from 9%, but if you’re just trying to shave cals, you could replace a couple whole eggs with egg whites. And I also think the chocolate milk pre-wo is a bit curious. I mean, there’s fat in it, right?

20

I might be in the minority, but I’ve seen better results from a low-carb diet than V-diet. I did the V-diet and didn’t get great results from it. I don’t know if my body was in shock, I’m a pussy on the weights, not enough HR (any more than 2 makes my head explode) or what it was.

I’m now 194lbs (down from 200 pre-V), about 18-20%BF, and I’m eating 2500 cal/day: 250-300g protein, under 100g carb, 88-100g fat. Close to the V-diet percentages, though higher cal and fat. I still drink a Metabolic Drive shake before and after working out, and usually another during the day, and sometimes Pure Protein bars. I work out 1 day on and 1 day off, full-body.

Maybe when I get my BF lower then I’ll try the V-diet again, I might have just been too heavy for it to be effective for me. I know that V-diet is everyone’s favorite suggestion on this board, but eating clean is the better path anyway for the long run.

Re: chocolate milk, I think the sugar is worse than the fat for your physique. Switch to chocolate lo-carb Metabolic Drive with L-luciene and Superfood. :slight_smile: