Diet Experts

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

Alright all I need some help from our resident Diet Experts on the board (Tampa-Terry, Timbo, Thunder et al). I need to get my diet dialed in. Sure I have been logging everything and being pretty close to goals for Macros for forever now, but I am stalled. I was rereading LL’s Restriction Contradiction and Calculating my calories and stuff for the Day and came up with some interesting numbers.

Stats:
Heigh: 5’10
Weight: around 84 Kg (next weigh in on Tue.)
BF: 12-14% by other estimates from pics

8 Hours Office Work: 1130 cals
Morning Cardio: 350 Cals (according to treadmill
45 Min weight training: 187 cals
9 Hours of Sleep: 681 cals
45 minutes house cleaning=220 cals
Rest (rest of time, 4.75 hours)= 407 cals

Food:
Right now I am aiming for 2200-2300 calories
T.E.F
Protein 240grams =240 cals
Carbs 115= 23 cals
100 Fat= 45 cals

Total Expended: 3282
This leaves me with a total energy expenditure of 3283 calories a day according to my calculations using LL’s equations. This doesnt take into account HIIT 2-3 times a week, or a hockey game 2-3 times a week (althogh I assumed cardio everyday its more like 4-5 times a week). With me taking in only 2200-2300 calories a day thats like a 30% difference between the two which means theoretically I should be seeing a lot of weight loss. Of course I’m not. The problem is I have the propensity of gain weight relatively easy, part of it is because I still have some fat left over from when I was much larger, and
I am sure some of it has to do with the fact that when I was way younger I only ate 1 meal a day and probably screwed my metabolism. The only time I have ever seriously lost weight was about 3 summers ago and at the time I thought I was eating fine but by my estimates now I was probably eating around 1500 cals a day i.e starvation mode.

Ok, so after all that lead in My questions are

  1. How much does past weight/eating habits affect current caloric/metabolic needs? Is it possible that I actually need to bump my calories up more so I am not in such a drastic deficit.

  2. Is it possible that the reverse is true, that my body has become accustomed to losing weight only in severe caloric defecit, and therefore I should go even lower?

  3. Over the last week or so, I have been noticing a slight drop in strength, even though my weight and caloric intake are nearly the same. Losing strenghth while dieting is something to be expect from everything I have been told, but before that with an almost identical eating and workout regimin I was gaining strength. The only difference now is the fact that I added morning hill walking into the equation around 4 days a week.

  4. What kind of calories would you guys recommend for me. I am honestly lost. Also, how much flax oil and how much fish oil would you recommend. I have heard various things from 2-6 tbls a day while dieting?

You can check out my workout on the the picture forum.

I really want to get my diet dialed in and try and figure this out. I have the will power and since I just graduated, I have the time. I also have about 1/4 of a bottle of both Hot Rox and 1/4 bottle of MD6 lying around, 1 Bottle of Methoxy, and some Mag 10 left over from CD/EDT. Plenty of surge and low carb grow as well. Sorry for the long diatribe, and thanks for any help.

2

Sounds like you do have your diet dialed in but you’re just eating too much otherwise you would be losing weight. I know this goes against what all those fancy caloric and exercise guideline charts tell you but what I’ve learned is that for many you just have to toss all those numbers out the window. Case in point. 2 months ago I was losing weight eating a diet with 300-500 calories more then what i am eating now, same macros, same volume and type of exercise. Now I am gaining weight on the same diet eating even less calories. How is this possible?? Natural hormonal fluctuations for one. My testosterone is probably lower, cortisol I’m sure is elevated. Stimulatory neurotransmitters are down, all kinds of stuff like that which effect body composition that I just love to explore :). Ok enough rambling…
Science will tell you that individual metabolic rate will vary 30% in either direction so, if around 3000 is supposed to be maintenance but you have a slow metabolism 2100 calories might be your true maintenance. So perhaps 1800 calories might be a better place to start to begin dropping weight again. To structure your diet sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on that already. Set protein levels first (1 to 1.5 grams per lb), then play with carbs and fats. From what you describe it doesn’t sound like you’re really in need of a short term higher calorie intake to re-set your metabolism. I would guess if you were to take a week and eat 3000 calories per day you’d just put on some fat and nothing else, but eventually this will have merit for you once you get to a leaner level and begin to notice huge drops in energy, intolerable cravings, and stalled fat loss. At this point a week at maintenance would likely stimulate your metabolism and lead to enhanced fat loss.
And to answer your questions on the oils. Not so sure about flax oil due to it’s possible limited conversion ratio but fish oil in your case is definitely a good thing. Take as much as you can up to 10 grams combined EPA/DHA. For those bulking or eating maintenance i wouldn’t recommend such high amounts but for an endormorph dieting it does all the good…makes your cells more like an ectomorphs by turning on the fat burning machinery, increases metabolic rate on it’s own, and increases leptin sensitivity. Hope this helps!

3

Kelly,

How much fish oil would you recommend for eating around maintenance or when bulking? I’m also an endomorph, but I just haven’t heard any other info about fish oil intake except Berardi’s recommendation of 6-10 grams of combined EPA/DHA.

4

JasonL, JB may have suggested that because of the decrease in allergies associated with that dose.

5

Hey, there, Biltritewave. I’m not sure I can answer all your questions about your metabolism and the ideal number of calories, but I do have a few recommendations and questions for you.

  1. Get your BF tested by someone who is experienced and someone you can go back to once a month. Most people judge their success or failure based on the number the scale reports. In reality, if your LBM is going up and your BF is going down, the scale number is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.

Additionally, the only way you can determine the effectiveness of your program is with HARD NUMBERS. Telling me you’re “12-14% by other estimates from pics” ain’t gonna cut it.

  1. Have you eliminated dairy from your diet? I’m talking milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc.

  2. How many meals are you eating a day? How far apart are your meals?

  3. How much cardio are you doing currently? What type, and how long are your sessions? Do you separate cardio and weight training sessions?

  4. How many grams of protein, fat and carbs are you getting in per day? How are you combining your food in conjunction with your workout?

  5. What type of weight-bearing workout are you doing currently? How many days a week are you in the gym?

  6. Ultimately, carbs are the answer to your energy problems. That number needs to be adjusted. What type of carbs are you taking in, and when do you eat them in conjunction with your workout?

  7. I’ll make recommendations on fat intake after I have the answers to the questions I asked of you above.

Just do me one big favor, Biltritewave. Go to a gym and get your BF tested. Make sure the guy’s experienced and has been there a while (and is likely to be there when you go back). Pay him a few bucks, and you and I will be in business.

6

Well for an endomorph you might have a harder time trying to stay lean then you would building muscle so I’d go ahead and stick with a higher dosage to help keep the fat off. For most I’d say 3 grams combined DHA/EPA is plenty.

7

Thanks for the info Kelly. I guess I’ll stick with my 6g of EPA/DHA.

8

Thanks alot for the time TT. I’ll take these in order

1.Completely understand about the scale. Have been going more by looks, I have a digital caliper and regular one which I use myself to some degree of unknown accuracy. None of the gyms/PTs that I can find in my area will do it without booking a pricey session with them for personal training, and none of them seem to be able to tell me how much real experience they have with taking measurements.

  1. I havent eaten any milk of any kind while dieting except for lowfat cheese.

  2. A Bunch, schedule for now is a 1.5 servings grow while walking on treadmill, nothing for an hour- hours an half after that, 2-3 meals during the day, workout, surge. another meal or two afterwards. Calories are spread throughout the day.

  3. Cardio is all hill walking with a 7-8 degree incline on a treadmill going at 3-4 mph usually takes me about 40 minutes, Per Lonnie Lowery’s recomendations… not strenous at all. According to the Treadmill it equalls 350 cals. 3 or more days a week, but again, I have only incorporated this part in the last 2 weeks. HIIT is 15 minutes rowing 30 seconds on 1 min off, after all upper body workouts.

  4. Shooting for about 240 protein, 90-100 fat, 100 carbs (usually wind up a few higher on carbs)…percentages wind up to be about 40/40/20 P/F/C, Using P+C and P+F combos.

  5. Doing Joel Marions Revised 5x5 progream (with a few minor changes to focus on some lower body weakpoints), had been experiencing good strength gains until about a week and half ago. Now they have tapered off.

  6. 1.5 servings of surge during last couple of sets of lifting and into HIIT, rest of carbs are from things like celery, onions, peppers, nuts, occasional piece of fruit, and in an emergency a protein bar.

  7. I’ll make recommendations on fat intake after I have the answers to the questions I asked of you above.

You can check out more of my workout details with my pic here.

9
  1. what exactly DO you eat? calories is not enough, it needs to be enough good stuuf in there i.e protein, good carbs, and good fats. (BTW, low fat yogurt is good, TT!)
  2. IMO, your caloric deificit is to much , especialy if youve been dieting for a lonf time as you said (been a fatty) eat more!
  3. what type of weight training do you do? its important? you may not giving enough stimulus to your body. I suggest either
  4. sticking with 2 short strength sessions per week and 4 meltdown sessions, no HIIT, maybe some incline walking.
  5. 5X5 by joel maroin plus some HIIT sessions.

the best is to cycle this two aproaches, obviously it could be much more individualised, acoording to your hormne profile, training history, personality, etc.

good luck!

10

biltritewave, I’ll be back after my FS cardio (which is LONG overdue).

Glute Spanker, some people do well with dairy and some don’t. Let’s forget the whole allergy thing. Looking at it just from a body composition perspective, the sugar in milk is known as lactose. It’s a disaccharide consisting of glucose and galactose. No problem with glucose, of course. It can refill muscle glycogen and enter into the Krebs cycle. Galactose, however, can only be processed in the liver. It does not enter the Krebs cycle and cannot refill MUSCLE glycogen stores (the reason for taking in carbs in the first place). The only bad thing about galactose is the fact that if liver glycogen is full (normally, except for PWO and fasted state), galactose is converted to triglyceride and stored as subcutaneous fat, giving you that “soft” look. That’s why body builders cutting for competition cut out all dairy leading up to competition.

If subcutaneous fat is not a concern, taking in milk and fructose (same problem) are not an issue.

High-fat, low-fat – doesn’t matter. It’s the type of carb-sugar found in dairy that causes the problem. Re fat, I’m actually an advocate and proponent of higher fat (the good variety, of course) in general.

11

the thing about yogurt is that the bacteria that creates it eats the lactose. Im not sure as to what is the sugar there but its not lactose, right?

(so Ive heard)

12

Hi, again, Biltritewave. Thanks for all the info. That’s most helpful.

  1. Expand your search. Check out universities in the area and hospitals. Why am I hung up on getting your BF tested? Let’s use my situation as an example. I’m getting my BF tested this week to measure the month’s results; good or bad. I’ve lost 1 to 1.5 pounds (not much on a cutting diet), but I’m expecting to see an increase in LBM and a loss of BF. The degree to which those things happen will determine the changes I make to the coming month’s workout and diet. There are times I make changes based on wanting to increase fat loss, and other times I make changes based on wanting to increase LBM. With hard numbers I’m able to REALLY dial in my diet. 'Nuff said. (grin)

  2. Read my reply to Glute-Spanker about dairy and cheese. If you’re not eating much at all, don’t worry about it. But be aware of the potential problems. And when fighting a plateau, be willing to do a one-month no-dairy test to see how your body responds.

  3. Based on my cardio recommendations below, I’d recommend that you take your Grow after your morning cardio. Other than that it looks like you’re getting in at least 6 meals a day. Doing good so far!

  4. Re the cardio, I’m proud of you. I can see you’re willing to work for your results. I’d like to make some recommendations re cardio.

a). Separate cardio from weight bearing exercise so that you get two metabolic kicks in the butt; in other words, AM cardio and PM weights. Looks like you’re doing that already.

b). Try fasted state cardio, 45 minutes, 70% of MHR. Get a heart rate monitor off the 'Net if you need one. 70% of MHR for 45 minutes will leave you SOAKED, but not panting or breathing hard. Work up to 6 or 7 days a week of FS cardio.

c). Be sure to use BCAAs to preserve LBM. I take in 5g prior and 10g divided between 2 one-quart water bottles; 15g total. Methoxy and Hot Rox will also do a fabulous job protecting LBM.

d). If doing HIIT, do 5 minutes warmup and another 20 minutes of sprints. Since a lot of fatty acids are mobilized (but not burned during HIIT), an additional 20 minutes of low-intensity (60-65% of MHR) cardio will utilize those fatty acids which have been mobilized. Once again, you’re talking 45 minutes. HIIT should NEVER be done fasted state. It would be a good idea to save your HIIT for breaking a plateau (second evening session on non weight-lifting days)

So why the heavy emphasis on cardio? Well, visceral fat is lost by creating a dietary deficit. Subcutaneous fat is most/more efficiently lost via an exercise deficit.

BB’ers cutting for comp will do lots of cardio. There are those who will argue that FS cardio is catabolic. If your diet is dialed in and if you’re using your BCAAs, my feelings based on my personal experience is that it is NOT catabolic and is highly conducive to speeding up fat loss. I’ll have my Month 2 numbers sometime this week, but last month I did daily FS cardio (with some double sessions) and saw an INCREASE in LBM while dropping FM.

  1. Protein looks perfect. You should be eating 6 meals per day. Four of those meals should be P+F and two meals (Surge is considered a meal) should be P+C. Take in your 100g allotment in those 2 P+C meals. Carbs in the whole-food P+C meal should be quality starchy carbs; oatmeal, brown rice, sweet potatoes. Believe it or not, you need carbs to maintain and build LBM.

Back to protein, you should eat protein every meal. 40g every meal. No exceptions.

I ran the numbers, but they need to be adjusted after you get your BF tested because they’re based on your LBM. LBM (and your P/F/C requirements) should be changing every month.

TBW 185 lbs.
BF% 13%
FM 24 lbs.
LBM 161 lbs.
Prot. Req. 240g
Fat. Req. 80g
Carbs 100g

  1. How long have you been doing the 5x5 program? If you’ve been doing it longer than a month or two, you need to change it out for something different. When gains stop in any program, you need to change it out; different grip, different reps, different/alternate exercises. Take a look at HST. I attribute some pretty phenomenal LBM gains to that program. Bryan Haycock has an HST web site. Just read up on it and make your own decision. (BTW, I LOVE 5x5!)

  2. Save Surge for the conclusion of your weight bearing session if fat loss is your goal. Save HIIT for your evening sessions on days you don’t lift weight. And even at that, save it for down the road (an ace in the hole) to break a plateau.

Additionally, try the starchy carb route PWO. I had problems with a depressed, stubborn metabolism, and I feel it’s done a lot to kick my metabolism into overdrive. PWO is the ONLY time I take in starchy carbs.

Re carbs, there isn’t any reason you can’t use small amounts for flavor in your P+F meals; a little onion, garlic, a tablespoon of salsa over your eggs. Keep it to <10g.

Okay. That’s it for now. The only thing that’s missing is a 6-hour cheat afternoon. I’d be glad to kick that one 'round with you, but let me know what you think of my recommendations above.

13

GS, if that were the case, yogurt wouldn’t have any carbs because the bacteria would have eaten all the carb-sugars, right? Just my logic, there.

Actually, I agree with you. Yogurt IS good. I love the taste, and the good bacteria is HIGHLY beneficial to health. If milk’s not a problem for you, don’t worry about it. It’s just one of the things that needs to be looked at when people are trying to break a plateau or have a particularly stubborn metabolism (or when cutting for competition).

14

Alright lot to digest there. I think I found a person to do BF testing " using the Durnin Formula with Skyndex skinfold calipers using a 4 point test. (Bicep/Tricep/Subscapular/Supra-iliac)" Is this legit? I thought the standard was a 3 or 7 point test.

Anyone of the other resident experts like timbo or thunder have anything to say about diet. I am cutting out cardio this week and I am making the plans for the next month or two in this time based on BF tests, so any more advice or points of view would be much appreciated.

15

Alright TT, just got back from measurements. They are as follows

weight: 181
Bf%= 10.7
LBM=161.6
FM=19.4

Here are the supplements I currently have lying around waiting to be used:

Low Carb Grow
Surge
1.25 bottles HR
1/3 of MD6
1 Bottle Methoxy
.5 Mag 10
R-ala
Dextrose
Whey Protein
Glutamine
Creatine (not on right now)

I dont currently have the money to shell out for BCAA’s but do have a large supply of Glutamine

As for HST, I have actually been looking into it before you mentioned it, but a couple of problems with it from my goals I think. 1. I dont want to take the 9-12 day layoff since I just took a week plus off at the end of July for Vacation 2. I want to really see how it works when I am eating big.

I have a HR monitor so the FS cardio shouldnt be a problem. I was thinking starting out mornings a week and bumping that number up by one each week. Probably on Elliptical machine or bike. Sunday mornings I play Hockey for 2 hours plus usually before eating so I can always add that one in there too.

I have been doing 5x5 for some period of time now, but there have been a couple of significant periods of rest in there. I would love to stick with a strength protcol of some kind while cutting cause I really have liked the results on 5x5, perhaps rep scheme would work?

I will wait and add HIIT for further along.

Also, what did you think of LL’s articles?

16

Hey, there, Biltritewave. Sorry it took me so long to get back with you. Life has a way of catching up with me from time to time.

Congrats on getting hard numbers. They look even better than you were telling me!!! Go back in one month to the same person to assess your progress, and do so at the same time of day, under the same circumstances (un-exercised, right?).

So the good news, Biltritewave, is that you only need to DISPLACE 5.4 pounds of FM with 5.4 pounds of muscle to hit 7.7%. That’s not a lot. I bet 180+ pounds looks good on you, and being a guy, a little more TBW/LBM wouldn’t hurt.

So let’s agree on our goals. 1). Increase LBM, 2). Decrease FM (and BF%), 3). Maintain or increase TBW. The third goal, of course, is secondary to Goals 1 and 2. The advice below is based on supporting those goals.

Let’s start with numbers.

  1. Protein 210g/day
    35g/meal, all 6 meals
    (LBM x ~1.25g)
  2. Carbs 160g/day
    80g/meal, 2 P+C meals
    (LBM x 1g)
  3. Fat 80g/day
    20g/meal 4 P+F meals
    (LBM x .5g)

With the goals of maximizing fat burning, maximizing anabolism PWO and reducing catabolism PWO, I’d recommend 4 P+F meals following fasted state cardio, one liquid meal (Surge) PWO and a second P+C meal following that 90 minutes later made up of quality starchy carbs (brown rice, sweet potatoes, oatmeal).

Keep carbs low on non-weight-lifting days. I’m thinking one P+C meal, about 30-35g. This is NOT a good time for starchy carbs. Go with green veggie carbs for the biggest metabolic bang for the buck. They’re HIGHLY thermogenic, full of fiber, phytonutrients, etc.

Your supplements look awesome. I know money is tight, but do me a favor and find $40 or so and get some BCAAs. BCAAs are HIGHLY protective of LBM, and FS cardio “challenges” the LBM you’re trying to maintain/build. I like MRM’s brand. It’s lemonade flavored, and I drop the first 5g in my mouth and add another 5g (each) to two 1-quart water bottles.

Along those lines, my one other instruction/recommendation is that drink 1 to 1.5 gallons of water a day. I drink over a gallon, and have a much lower amount of LBM than you. Watering-down the technical jargon (pun intended), it will do a great job of flushing fat, flushing toxins and byproducts of your cardio and exercise sessions, keep you feeling full and satisfied. The benefits go on and on. Just do it! (grin)

Questions, thoughts, objections, compliments, criticisms?

17

If I might chime in on this one. I will make two posts; this one being short as I am at work.

First, I am in agreement with pretty much all of what Tampa suggested. Her and I see eye-to-eye on dieting for the most part:

My recommendations are as follows (I will elucidate in a subsequent post).

First, when figuring out your BMR, my approach is always to leave out the TEF. Why? Bottom line, it is negligible. I don’t like to consider this into the equation. Whatever my TEF is, it is bonus (typically not more than 200kcal per day, esp. if you eat less protein).

Second, fasted-state cardio and even HIIT is a yes. I can hear the flames coming, but I believe this is huge for fat loss. Like Tampa said, supplement with glutamine and BCAA’s either prior or post HIIT. Also, I do not like to take in post-workout carbs during dieting week periods. Why? even though the literature has suggested post-cardio carb ingestion does not blunt lipolysis, the findings still leave much to be desired and are not absolutely conclusive, particularly at the adipocyte level, as even a half-maximal dose of insulin in vitro is maximally anti-lipolytic.

The loss in pump or fullness is usually misconstrued by many as LBM loss, particularly becuase it is hard on the ego when looking in the mirror. When you CHO load/refeed on the weekend, pump will return. (Moreso on a fat+cho refeed).

Your weight training looks good. Obviously without weight training, LBM loss will accrue. This is what happened to me. It was not the keto dieting, it was the lack of lifting and no tan that left me emaciated. For six months I lost the passion to lift (this intended to defuse any who suggest that my pics prove keto dieting makes you lose muscle).

Regarding your carbs. Drop to 50 during the week at 6 days, on day 7 refeed on the order of 1200 CHO to create a weekly avg. of approx 112-120. This creates the optimal average we are looking for, but at a much better “separated” rate, allowing for maximal fat loss, insulin sensitivity during refeeds, and glycogen replenishment.

Must use supps:
R-ala
Yohimbe
ECA stack

More later
(excuse any mispellings as this computer sucks).

Vain

18

Alright, again lots to digest. Thanks again guys. I have been eating a few more calories last week and this week. I think I am still under maintenance, but starting sunday I am breaking out the new diet regime, the new workout, and the HR. I am thinking EDT for Fat Loss, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, With Hockey Sunday morning, FS cardio on Tuesday and Thursday, and HIIT on Saturday, followed by a Refeed with one of the FS cardio’s replaced by HIIT each Week. TT, I really like the HST idea, but I think I am going to hold off, After this month long cylce I will be traveling for a week, so that seems like the percect time for the deconditioning. Hopefully I will be at my goal by then, so that I can do HST with something closer to maintenance.

I have some questions

  1. Vain? what do you recommend for PWO. I just read an table by JB that recommends 1 scoop surge during workout, a P+C PWO, and then a P+F 3 hours after. Just wondering why you suggest the no carbs PWO?

  2. TT, why such the relatively high carb numbers per day. I thought you had mentioned you were on a really low carb diet? Again, just looking for the reasoning.

  3. Just to clarify TT, you take 5 grams BCAA’s before cardio, and 10 during?

  4. TT, What kind of Fat ratio do you recommend. I have fish oil caps, and flax oil, and want to add more of them in because of the benefits while cutting. Currently I am getting a good portion of my fat from about 3-4 tablespoons of PB a day because its really convient to bring to work?

  5. In respect to r-ala, I have heard numberous different numbers for how much I should be taking. Do you guys back the idea of taking it even after p+f meals, or just after P+C meals. I think I remember CT saying that he used 100 after P+F and 300 after P+C, during his transformation

  6. In respect to refeeds, what do you guys think of having shorter refeeds, but 2 a week rather than 1. I really find that I stick well to my diet for 2-3 days and then some night middle of week I get the cravings back. I hope HR will help with this, but what would be the benefits/drawbacks of say a Wednesday night/ Saturday night refeed schedule. Seeing as I play hockey the following days for both of them, I thought it might be useful for performace as well. Interested to hear your thoughts

Thanks again guys.

19

TT, why such the relatively high carb numbers per day?

The number is based on your LBM. It can be adjusted, but it’s a good starting point if the goal is to put on LBM and rev up your metabolism and support/boost thyroid production. When you’ve been dieting down, you can’t help but think lower is better. But there’s more than one way to skin a cat, and getting your metabolism to kick into overdrive is another way to achieve your goals.

Yes, you might gain “weight,” but once you’ve committed to a plan, put blinders on and follow your plan. You’ll be having your BF percentage taken in a month, and as I said, if you put on LBM and drop BF, the scale number is irrelevant. Re-evaluate and adjust every month, but no more than that.

Just to clarify, TT, you take 5 grams BCAA’s before cardio, and 10 during?

Exactly! 5g in each of two one-quart water bottles. Drink your water. It goes down easy when you’re doing cardio.

TT, What kind of Fat ratio do you recommend?

It’s all good. I like to get in 6g of EPA/DHA, but after that I’ll use flaxseed oil, mayonaise, PB, the fat found in eggs. JB has some hard numbers/recommendations/ratios if you check the Fat Roundtable, I think.

The fat helps to keep you feeling full. That’s why it’s divided up instead of being taken all in one meal.

As far as ALA and r-ALA go, there are different schools of thought. I always liked Thunder’s numbers, 100mg of r-ALA per 30-50g of carbs. Double that number if using regular ALA. I only take it with P+C meals.

Re the refeeds, we’re all highly individual and unique. Different things work for different people. I would recommend that you keep all things the same, but test one refeed vs. two; one on one month, the other on the next month. It doesn’t matter what other people are doing. If you’re monitoring your progress, you can find out what works best for YOU. That’s all that really matters.

Re cravings, remember that the closer you get to those ultra-low numbers, the more the body wants to rebell and sabatoge your efforts. Once you know what works better, taking into consideration all the factors that matter to you (performance, energy levels, fat loss, LBM gain), you just do what you have to do.

You might want to PM Vain. He’s on the board sporadically and might not be aware he has a question pending.

20

TT, one last thing. What do you recommend following FS cardio. What kind of meal, how big, and how soon after.
Thanks