Post Workout Nutrition

Diet and Nutrition
1

Is it wise to consume just a whey shake i.e. little to no carbs after exercise and then about half hour later, maybe a bit longer a meal with carbs - say brown rice. OR Should carbs be consumed immediately with protein post workout (suggesting no delay in providing the two macros to the body).

Is having just a whey shake after exercise detrimental to either a) Muscle Repair and b) gylcogen replenishment.

What takes priority in the body POST WORKOUT is it A or B? If A then is protein only optimal (note I did not say sufficient) or would some carbs with this shake be even better. If it is B then the whey shake has been used to replenish glycogen and thus delayed muscle repair…surely that’s detrimental?

2

Protein does not restore glycogen stores in the muscle, that is the job of the carbs. So I guess I answered your questions, go with the carbs and protein. The number of carbs depends on your goals however.

3

Holy good god man just eat. Lol… Seriously. Glycogen replenishment is not a real or the major concern postworkout. Especially if you are doing a body part split, as opposed to west side for skinny bastards upper/ lower split or a Waterbury full body split, training for longer than 90 minutes, and or doing intense bouts of cardio. If you are going in and doing a 45 minute shoulder routine, glycogen replenishment is not a real concern. The idea with high GI carbs postworkout is insulin spikes, this hormone is highly anabolic and results in greater protein synthesis. If you had to stagger them, the carbs first. This way insulin is released before protein enters the cell. Not 100% certain on that, but just a common sense guess. Though protein does cause an insulin response, especially whey, just not a very significant one.

In terms of importance I would say protein. Since muscle breakdown is the major goal of weight training and not muscle glycogen depletion, supplying amino acids for tissue rebuilding is more important than glycogen replenishment.

Also like the above poster mentioned amount should reflect workout in terms of optimum effect. So a heavy leg day could be as high as 100g of carbs and 50 g of protein. Depending on insulin resistance and how you feel after ingesting that many carbs. A shoulder day could be as little as 20g of each, so on and so forth. There is a synergistic relationship with protein and carbs, so adding whey to carbs results in higher insulin responses than carbs alone.

4

Protein AND carbs would be optimal. Amino acids, specifically leucine will help to trigger protein synthesis after lifting. Carbs will help to maintain or add transporter cells for a longer duration after lifting to help transport more nutrients into the muscle cells.

However, exercise activates AA and glucose transporters independent of insulin, therefore if for some reason you only had the choice of protein or carbs, protein would be better.

But just eat some protein and carbs together to receive maximal benefit if you are trying to gain muscle. The end.

5

I am not on a cut or bulk in the extreme phases that they used to be done. The new way of thinking is getting to a desired body fat % and then clean bulk whilst keeping an eye on BF. I have been following this now for 4 months and all my lifts have increased with a noticeably leaner look. To keep this routine what and when to eat are equally important. Therefore I am out to gain as much knowledge as possible; ‘train the brain for max gain’.

I was more so concerned with what our body prioritises; recovery or replenishment - but that now seems redundant. I am on a 4 day split (Legs,Chest + Tri, Cricket Training, Back + Bi, Shoulders + Core). If I am not doing the main lifts (Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Arnold Press) then I superset the exercises.

I will mess around with the amount of carbs to see what is best as at the moment I am just having a whey shake.

Would it be better to have a mass-gainer shake or just have a banana with the whey shake? what do you guys have post-workout?

6

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
I am not on a cut or bulk in the extreme phases that they used to be done. The new way of thinking is getting to a desired body fat % and then clean bulk whilst keeping an eye on BF. I have been following this now for 4 months and all my lifts have increased with a noticeably leaner look. To keep this routine what and when to eat are equally important. Therefore I am out to gain as much knowledge as possible; ‘train the brain for max gain’.

I was more so concerned with what our body prioritises; recovery or replenishment - but that now seems redundant. I am on a 4 day split (Legs,Chest + Tri, Cricket Training, Back + Bi, Shoulders + Core). If I am not doing the main lifts (Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Arnold Press) then I superset the exercises.

I will mess around with the amount of carbs to see what is best as at the moment I am just having a whey shake.

Would it be better to have a mass-gainer shake or just have a banana with the whey shake? what do you guys have post-workout? [/quote]

If you are concerned with mainting body fat then i would not recomend a mass gainer, as they are not always of the highest quality, however I would say have a little bit more than just a banana PWO. Personally, I have two scoops of a blend protein in 2 cups of milk with 1/2-1 cup of dry oats. The amount of oats depends on my training. My split is upper/lower and on lower days I obviously have more oats than on my upper days. I have been getting solid strength gains with this and my body fat hasn’t changed much. I’d recomend it.

7

[quote]jaker51 wrote:

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
I am not on a cut or bulk in the extreme phases that they used to be done. The new way of thinking is getting to a desired body fat % and then clean bulk whilst keeping an eye on BF. I have been following this now for 4 months and all my lifts have increased with a noticeably leaner look. To keep this routine what and when to eat are equally important. Therefore I am out to gain as much knowledge as possible; ‘train the brain for max gain’.

I was more so concerned with what our body prioritises; recovery or replenishment - but that now seems redundant. I am on a 4 day split (Legs,Chest + Tri, Cricket Training, Back + Bi, Shoulders + Core). If I am not doing the main lifts (Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Arnold Press) then I superset the exercises.

I will mess around with the amount of carbs to see what is best as at the moment I am just having a whey shake.

Would it be better to have a mass-gainer shake or just have a banana with the whey shake? what do you guys have post-workout? [/quote]

If you are concerned with mainting body fat then i would not recomend a mass gainer, as they are not always of the highest quality, however I would say have a little bit more than just a banana PWO. Personally, I have two scoops of a blend protein in 2 cups of milk with 1/2-1 cup of dry oats. The amount of oats depends on my training. My split is upper/lower and on lower days I obviously have more oats than on my upper days. I have been getting solid strength gains with this and my body fat hasn’t changed much. I’d recomend it.[/quote]

Yea weight gainers…ehhh… not the best blend of macros generally. MHP up your mass, is probably one of the best, but it contains soy as its main protein. It has oats as its carb source, instead of malto, so buy the Biotest whey and add a scoop in with it if that is the route you go.

If you just want to add pure unadulterated calories to your diet “muscle juice, bu ultimate nutrition” tastes amazing, and it has a shit ton of calories.

I drink a BCAA, glutamine, luecine, creatine and about 30g blend of malto, dextrose and trehalose during workout and then either MD, with another 30g of Waxy Maize or a blend of whey, MC, egg protein with oats and Waxy maize from a company that blends protein.

What is your secret with adding oats to your shake jaker51? I have tried this and it just tastes horrible and I am left with clumps of oats at the bottom.

Your best option is just to use the Surge workout fuel during your workouts, and MD after, and in-between meals. Good macro profile…

8

[quote]mathew260 wrote:

[quote]jaker51 wrote:

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
I am not on a cut or bulk in the extreme phases that they used to be done. The new way of thinking is getting to a desired body fat % and then clean bulk whilst keeping an eye on BF. I have been following this now for 4 months and all my lifts have increased with a noticeably leaner look. To keep this routine what and when to eat are equally important. Therefore I am out to gain as much knowledge as possible; ‘train the brain for max gain’.

I was more so concerned with what our body prioritises; recovery or replenishment - but that now seems redundant. I am on a 4 day split (Legs,Chest + Tri, Cricket Training, Back + Bi, Shoulders + Core). If I am not doing the main lifts (Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Arnold Press) then I superset the exercises.

I will mess around with the amount of carbs to see what is best as at the moment I am just having a whey shake.

Would it be better to have a mass-gainer shake or just have a banana with the whey shake? what do you guys have post-workout? [/quote]

If you are concerned with mainting body fat then i would not recomend a mass gainer, as they are not always of the highest quality, however I would say have a little bit more than just a banana PWO. Personally, I have two scoops of a blend protein in 2 cups of milk with 1/2-1 cup of dry oats. The amount of oats depends on my training. My split is upper/lower and on lower days I obviously have more oats than on my upper days. I have been getting solid strength gains with this and my body fat hasn’t changed much. I’d recomend it.[/quote]

Yea weight gainers…ehhh… not the best blend of macros generally. MHP up your mass, is probably one of the best, but it contains soy as its main protein. It has oats as its carb source, instead of malto, so buy the Biotest whey and add a scoop in with it if that is the route you go.

If you just want to add pure unadulterated calories to your diet “muscle juice, bu ultimate nutrition” tastes amazing, and it has a shit ton of calories.

I drink a BCAA, glutamine, luecine, creatine and about 30g blend of malto, dextrose and trehalose during workout and then either MD, with another 30g of Waxy Maize or a blend of whey, MC, egg protein with oats and Waxy maize from a company that blends protein.

What is your secret with adding oats to your shake jaker51? I have tried this and it just tastes horrible and I am left with clumps of oats at the bottom.

Your best option is just to use the Surge workout fuel during your workouts, and MD after, and in-between meals. Good macro profile…
[/quote]

From what I’ve heard from people I train with, it’s a good way to get in carbs post workout. And in my opinion it tastes great. I just put 2 cups of milk or water in a blender with a hand full of ice, two scoops of my whey/casien protein blend and 1/2-1 cup of oats. I also have just put those ingredients in a shaker, minus the ice and just chug that down. Not as good as the blender but it does the job. What I am unsure of is the speed that the oats are digested. At first I thought they were very slow digesting but people assured me they were good PWO. I’m only 15 so I kinda have a bad habit of taking advice from all people just because they are older than me. Doesn’t always mean they are wiser.

I’d like to know what anyone else thinks in regards to the speed that the oats are digested PWO.

9

At breakfast I have a whey shake (40g) and Oats (40g). Would this be a better option PWO?

I bought a bulk bag of nice clean oats, rammed then down a blender and now have a big container with pre-blended oats. It doesn’t completely mix but it does a decent enough job. This whey (see what I did there haha) I can keep my whey protein and add clean carbs as and when I wish.

My Macros at the moment are; Pro 220, Fat 50, Carb 100. I am 80.2kg at 12% - I am happy to experiment with the amount of carbs in my shake but if anyone has an idea of what would be a good starting point post-workout? 40g Oats?

10

[/quote]
I’m only 15 so I kinda have a bad habit of taking advice from all people just because they are older than me. Doesn’t always mean they are wiser. [/quote]

You’re getting warmer. Trusting someone to give good advice because they are an anonymous poster on the internet isn’t a better reason to trust someone than trusting them because they are older.

On the topic at hand, I’ve been reading articles by John Berardi and John Keifer
lately and these guys seem, to me, to have their s*it together, but that’s something you will have to judge for your self. At least its a place to start.

11

Ahh, ok. I could never get them blended, and stomach the pulp left behind. I have tried the oats and whey from optimum, and others, and it seemed fine. I think they use an oat flour however and that blends better. Like I mentioned earlier, I am always trying new stuff.

Lately I have been drinking most of my high GI carbs during training, and with the protein shake after about 20g from oat flour and another 30g from Waxy Maize (not vitargo) which are both slower digesting carbohydrates.

I at one point years ago mixed 40-60 grams of pure dextrose in with a whey blend and would have to take a nap afterward I was so tired. Did a little resarch of IR and figured that didn’t work for me. I had good results with Surge recovery, but I just broke it up half during, and half after with another 20-30 grams of whey.

My current blend is 10g trehalose, 10g malto, 10g dext. Post is 20g oat, 30g WM. This seems to be working well for me. I don’t get drowsy afterward, and my muscles stay full throughout the day.

Blah, blah ok to the point. Oats are generally a moderate to slow GI carb, depending on how they are prepared. Whole oats compared with oat flour can range 10-15 points on the GI scale depending on which source. So speaking in terms of optimal insulin response, you want to go with something like maltodextrin, dextrose, or one of the newer carbohydrates that Biotest uses, which are modified versions of rice sugar, malto or potato sugar etc. In terms of cheap and easy sources for a 15 year old, good ol’ ovaltine, powdered gatorade, willy wonka candy (dextrose is first ingredient), fruit juice, hershey’s chocolate etc.

You don’t need a lot, 20-40 grams, combined with whey protein is enough to elicite an insulin response.

For the morning the oats and whey is a great whey to start the day. 40 grams of each.

At your age a weight gainer might not be a bad idea. A ten pound tub of muscle juice from ultimate nutrition is about $50, and per HALF serving has 90grams of carbs, 28g protein, and over 500 calories. Again, not a high quality product like MD, but for someone your age, it might be the way to go. I used it in my early 20’s and it was always easy to pack on pounds drinking 2-3 half servings a day.

12

@Matthew260

Was your response aimed at me? I’m not 15. More 22 and have been training for 16months, coming up to 12 months properly though.

I do have maltodextrin and will give it a go.

By the way does any of this change since I train at 6pm because of work? Sleep around 11pm.

13

@trapslatsnhat nope he was talkin to me.

To answer your question, no, nothing should change just becuase of the time of day. You should take full advantage of the “post workout window” and have no fear of it making you fat just because it’s close to bed. The carbs your eating PWO are being used to repair muscle tissue as you probably know.

Also, in reguards to your macros, your carbs are fairly low at 100 grams and for having such low carbs, your fats are VERY low. I would suggest upping your fats. You need to pick a primary energy source (protein is NOT an energy source, so it’s either fats or carbs.)

14

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[/quote]
I’m only 15 so I kinda have a bad habit of taking advice from all people just because they are older than me. Doesn’t always mean they are wiser. [/quote]

You’re getting warmer. Trusting someone to give good advice because they are an anonymous poster on the internet isn’t a better reason to trust someone than trusting them because they are older.

On the topic at hand, I’ve been reading articles by John Berardi and John Keifer
lately and these guys seem, to me, to have their s*it together, but that’s something you will have to judge for your self. At least its a place to start.
[/quote]

Definitely agree. Berardi is a great source of knowledge for nutrition.

15

To follow that up def don’t be afraid of carbs after training. It all depends on your genetics ( are you fat, skinny fat, or a beanpole) goals and response to carbs, and the type of training. Berardi has some great articles on the subject, and I believe it was him that summarized some research on postworkout window being up to something like 5 hours, in terms of glucose utilization for gylcogen replacement as opposed to fat storage.

Chris Shugart also did a mini study back in the late 2000’s with Surge recovery, breaking up the servings pre/intra/ post and having good results (this was before Surge workout). But yea man give it shot and see how you respond, and search the articles too. Scrawny to brawny was a great series that comes to mind, amongst a thousand others.

16

Skinnyfat?

I’d have to say I got lucky with the ginetics card. I’ve never really been skinny nor fat. Sort of always in the middle (This could have been due to having a sporty upbringing). I bulked pretty quick and have only recently hit a conditioning plateu. Maybe this is what you mean by skinny fat, I dunno.

Looking at my macros the calories total: P 840, F 450, C,400 - that’s 1690. Carbs are only at breakfast and post workout. Are you suggesting this is too low for cutting? I want to get to 10% then clean bulk whilst keeping an eye on BF (not letting it get out of hand i.e. 12%+).

I have an office job which although is mentally demanding, physically it’s a joke! If I need to increase fats, where and what do you recommend?

17

To increase fats, replace any starch or carb food with either nuts, nut butters or oils (olive oil, coconut, macadamia etc.) fats will alter you calorie counts, increasing them, due to the fact that there are 9 cals per gram of fat versus 4 cals per gram protein or carb. The benefit you are getting from fats is an energy source that doesn’t spike insulin levels do u won’t risk fat gain.

18

First of all I did not know eating fats won’t increase fat? are you sure?

Secondly, surely I want to keep my total calories in a deficit to lose fat. My BMR is approx 2200 which means I have a caloric deficit of 500 - across a week that’s 3500 so a pound a week from diet alone. I’m not keen on cardio and therefore do as little as I can get away with. I much prefer weights to lose fat…does this sound right?

All my weights are increasing, just last week I upped my 1rep Deadlift to 396 from 375. Will be attempting my 2 rep max on squat next week at my 1 rep max weight.

Feel free to criticise, I have a lifetime of this to do, might as well make the mistakes now, if any.

19

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Skinnyfat?

I’d have to say I got lucky with the ginetics card. I’ve never really been skinny nor fat. Sort of always in the middle (This could have been due to having a sporty upbringing). I bulked pretty quick and have only recently hit a conditioning plateu. Maybe this is what you mean by skinny fat, I dunno.

Looking at my macros the calories total: P 840, F 450, C,400 - that’s 1690. Carbs are only at breakfast and post workout. Are you suggesting this is too low for cutting? I want to get to 10% then clean bulk whilst keeping an eye on BF (not letting it get out of hand i.e. 12%+).

I have an office job which although is mentally demanding, physically it’s a joke! If I need to increase fats, where and what do you recommend?[/quote]

Yea skinny fat…skinny arms and legs, with a beer gut. Unless you weight 100lbs that is not even close to what you need to be eating. Multiply your body weight by 18-20 and that is what you should be eating in terms of calories. Bodyfat shouldn’t be a concern for someone training until about the 20% mark. Most people can’t even bulk while staying under 12%. Don’t worry to much about that, it is really hard to stay lean or lose bodyfat while bulking, and you probably won’t accomplish much of either if you try to do both.

Fish oils, olive oil, coconut oils, flax oils, and saturated fats from lean meats and eggs.

20

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
First of all I did not know eating fats won’t increase fat? are you sure?
[/quote]
NOOOO!! Fats do not increase bodyfat. Do not be afraid to eat fats when cutting. The macro that CAN make you fat is carbs.