Safest, Lowest Risk Supplements/PED for Moderate Gains?

Hi All,

I’m a male, 32, with normal/solid levels of testosterone (650 ng/dl TT). I’ve been exercising on and off since I was a teenager but have only been on a proper weightlifting and diet protocol for the past 6 months with a professional bodybuilder with my main goal being to obtain a decently good (but not necessarily great) body. I’ve seen some modest improvements in my physique, however, my genes are just not suited to gain fat free mass commensurately with the effort I put into my diet and exercise routine. To get the same results most people would, I’d have to work out twice as hard and with a perfect diet (weighing food, eliminating refined sugar, managing calories and fat intake to an extreme degree, etc.), essentially indefinitely.

I understand the importance of patience and I’m willing to wait to see results, but the point is that the sacrifice is just too great if it means doing this forever. Eating rice, broccoli, and chicken breast is no way to live, especially because I’m a huge foodie and amateur chef and enjoying unhealthy meals is a principal enjoyment of life for me. Thus, I’m exploring some PEDs to improve my physique while maintaining a somewhat normal diet. Of course, I’m no fool and understand that there’s no magic cure; I’ll still have to monitor my diet, consume proper amounts of protein, and maintain a consistent exercise routine regardless of any exogenous means of enhancement. But the hope is to get a solid edge so that the results are more commensurate with the sacrifices I’m making. Please note: I’m not going for a bodybuilder’s body or anything even remotely similar. I’d be very satisfied with perhaps 10-15 lbs of more muscle and a ~15% bodyfat percentage (I’m probably mid-20% range currently).

The options I’m considering are below and wanted to kindly request feedback, comments, and advice based on my assumptions and thoughts. The overarching question is, which of these options, if any, is best suited to my goals of moderate aesthetic improvement while minimizing, or ideally entirely eliminating, long-term risk to my health? If none of these options, what are some alternatives you recommend?

Option 1: TRT

  • The plan here would be to increase my TT to the 1,100 range ng/dl, which is the upper limit of natural/therapeutic.
  • I’d be following the proper bloodwork monitoring protocols: checking hematocrit, PSA, estradiol, blood pressure, etc. Donating blood, etc. as needed. I’d even potentially get regular EKGs to monitor any changes in my heart, particularly the left ventricle. Is this enough to ensure I’m not getting into trouble, or is there simply no way mitigate all the risks of long-term TRT?
  • I have to be prepared for it to be a long-term commitment since there’s the risk of permanent endogenous testosterone shutdown, right?
  • Some have told me that bringing my TT to this level won’t have any material impact on my gains and that to really see results I’d have to push past my levels past the 1,500 ng/dl mark. Is that true? Keep in mind that my gains and body ambitions are moderate.
  • Concerned about some of the side effects, specifically hair loss. I’m planning to get a hair transplant; should I wait until after I do the TRT, since exogenous introduced after the fact might cause loss on the new hair that I’ve gained from the transplant?

Option 2: Peptides, specifically ipamorelin + CJC-1295

  • This obviously is to increase production of HGH, not testosterone, but I understand that there will be improvements in muscle mass and reduction in body fat.
  • There isn’t much data out there on long-term effects of peptides. Anyone have any to share? [Dosing will be moderate, not abusive.]
  • I understand that this doesn’t have a risk of shutting down natural production of HGH the way TRT does for testosterone, correct? So there’s less risk in trying and seeing how it goes?
  • Are there any peptides that increase natural testosterone production?
  • Any other peptides I should be considering?

Option 3: Clomid

  • My original understanding of clomid was that it was used primarily to maintain endogenous production of testosterone while on TRT or as part of a PCT protocol to restore natural production, however, I read that clomid also has standalone anabolic merit: I’ve been told that taking clomid 12.5mg to 25mg every day would get me to 1200-1500ng/dl of TT and with no harm to my HPTA , with it being the safest way to test those levels without harm. Any feedback on this?
  • Is clomid at this level safe to stay on long-term?

Option 4: One Singular Cycle of Anabolic Steroids

  • I have no interest in being on a long-term steroid cycle or even a blast-and-cruise protocol (no judgment from me on those who do; just not for me personally). I believe that even just one 10-16 week cycle would give me great gains and that while I may not keep all of them, if I follow a proper PCT protocol, I’ll keep some of them, correct? I’d be doing this not with the expectation that I’d get and keep a Greek god of a physique, rather to get gains in a couple months that would normally take me years and hope to keep as much of it afterwards.
  • My biggest concern here, though, is that my natural testosterone production will permanently cease even with the correct PCT protocol. There is always that risk, correct?
  • There are risks of long-term steroid use, but my understanding is that there’s little-to-no long-term risks of one singular steroid cycle (other than HPTA shutdown), correct?

Lastly, are there a few “go to” doctors you can recommend who are experts in everything anabolic and who will give me honest answers to my questions? The endocrinologists I’ve seen have only yielded some iteration of the following exchange:

  • “Sorry, your testosterone levels are fine; there’s no need for introducing exogenous testosterone.”
  • “I understand there is no medical need, doctor, but I nonetheless have a desire to improve my physique aesthetically.”
  • “TRT is not indicated or permitted for aesthetic enhancement; only for those whose levels are pathologically low.”
  • “With all due respect, doctor, I didn’t ask for your permission to take TRT. That decision is mine. I’m just asking you to explain the risks and provide the information I need to make an informed decision myself.”
  • [you can sense my frustration, I’m sure]

Thank you so much for reading and for your help!

T3hPwnisher
simo74

Bit of a loaded question here lol.

the obligatory first questions to ask you are:

  1. what exactly did you eat the last 3 days (what was it, quantities, macro intake)?
  2. what are your current PR’s?
  3. can you post a faceless picture of yourself so forum members aren’t giving directions to someone who is interested in dabbling in the magic sauce, when they have major other improvements to be made first?

Nothing against you, these are the typical questions for most who are interested in going the pharma route. No one wants to advise a 16 yr old who yesterday did 15 sets of isolation curls as their whole first workout on how to “safely” take PEDs, as there is no such thing as ‘safe’ in that circumstance. (not calling you a 16 year old at all, just providing an obtuse example!)

Andrewgen_Receptors thanks for your response.

  1. My diet protocol has been: Aug - Nov, I was on a bulk; went slowly up to 3,250 calories per day; since Nov I’ve been on a cut, jumping down bit by bit and now I’m at my lowest of 1,300 calories per day. Macros are: 150g Protein (46%), 51g Carbs (16%), 55g Fat (38%). High in fat and low in carbs because I noticed my T (vis a vis my libido drops when my fat goes too low). I also haven’t noticed any major reduction in energy with the low carbs. Peaked at 189lbs during my bulk and now down to 174lbs. I probably gained 8-10lbs of muscle during my bulk; not sure how much of it I lost during my cut.
  2. I don’t have my PR’s but I was progressively loading during my bulk and my trainer was tracking my progress very diligently. I work out 3 days a week for 1hr; all major muscle groups: back, chest, shoulders, quads, hamstrings/glutes; we throw some bis and tris every now and then.
  3. Regarding pictures: let me give this some thought but I think my question is more intellectual in nature, as I really am just looking for a way to work smarter rather than work harder (call it a shortcut; I’m fine with that). I want more leeway with my diet while seeing better results. I don’t claim at all to have hit my genetic potential, but if it means eating and living like this for years to get there, well, the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze for me. I just want more results for less work. If there’s no way to get that without taking some risk to my health, then I’d like to just know what those risks and I’ll weigh the pros and cons and decide for myself.

Thank you again.

SvenG

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Is your trainer giving you your dieting advice?

1300 cals per day at 174lbs is far too little. Anything under (bodyweight x10 = total calories) is too low by most standards (extremely overweight people have a different set of rules here).

At any rate, I believe you are doing well but you should make more progress before deciding to risk health for what could be attained naturally.

TRT at your age can very well end up with problems, because you will probably need to be pinning 2x per week for the rest of your life (this is a LOT of fcking needles). You will also likely find yourself having impotence issues as most TRT users find, so if you wanted/want to have kids, you should probably handle this before dabbling in any exogenous test.

Running a “single cycle” can also have these problems, the solution to which can also end up being TRT. Some people have done a single cycle and kept most of their muscle, while many others report gaining well while on cycle and having such a tough PCT run that they lost everything they gained. This is why a lot of people have adopted the Blast and Cruise method, so they don’t lose everything they’ve built…
This single cycle can also lead straight into BnC for those reasons. IF this is what happens in your case, then you’ve strapped yourself onto a rocket with a half tank of gas - and you should have built more muscle first so that proverbial ‘tank’ is more full.

Anyways, there are others on this forum who know far more than myself about this subject. I strongly recommend weighing the risks, as you’ve mentioned. These can be lifetime obligations for some folks.

I’d love to know how you determined this to be true. To just arbitrarily assume that you have it twice as hard as anyone else is a pretty crazy thing to do. It’s not true, of course, but it’s a nice excuse to hop on gear.

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I think the only reasonable option is TRT.
Cycling is the worst you can do IMO.
You can also play around with MK677 or real GH, if you dont want to do TRT and see how that helps.

Dont focus on risks before even starting anything. Most people pump themselves up with AI before they even know they would have e2 issues, for example.
Sure, everything you wrote is nice but thats a plan for like 5 years, not something you need to do right away.
If you are really scared - go check up your artheries and do a heart echo. In 2 years you can do these again and compare numbers.
p.s - EKG is bullshit, it only shows something when its already happening. Its simmilar to a typical XRay. It only shows if something is broken, but there are 200 reasons shit could hurt anyway :smiley:

Yes. Its ok. Natural test sucks anyways.

Its not as much the test levels as your IGF.
Just go and do bloodwork for IGF and it will tell you your potential.
People with IGF in 300s can gain more muscle with 500ng/dl test than people on 4,000ng/dl with 100 IGF.
Its not as simple as the test reading.

Are you kidding me?
IMO, you have the cart 4 miles ahead of the horse.

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This alone throws TRT out.

Seriously… yes it takes way more time. You can’t even evaluate your genetic potential in such a short period.

Sure. Put Instagram down… seriously. It’s bad for your mental health.

You should quit. Yes it takes a lifetime of work.

Um… that’s a lot of muscle and 15% BF takes work to maintain. avg male BF is around 20% for moderately active men. This is not counting that 40% are obese.

What is THIS bullshit.

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your doctors already did. And they are right.

the other advice you’ve gotten is also right (I wouldn’t suggest TRT cos you’re not hypogonadal and you’re not suffering any ill-effects other than not liking your physique, which isn’t a medical condition).

So, let’s rule out TRT and Clomid (you don’t need a SERM, the sides outweigh the benefits, and as we’ve already covered, you’re not hypogonadal). How about peptides? the ones you listed won’t get you anywhere near your 10-15 lbs of desired muscle, so toss that idea out. That just leaves a cycle, and I think that’s what you should do. Your TT is great for your age, so chances of recovery after are good. And, you’re not shooting for the moon here muscle wise, so a basic test-only should be just fine. 12 weeks or so, or really however long you need to hit 20-25 TOTAL pounds gained (muscle, fat, water, glycogen) and watch half that come off during PCT and after. You’ll be left with some decent muscle, a functional HPTa, and likely a strong desire to do it all again,

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I doubt it. Gentlemens bet that it will be gone in 3-6 months.

Probably but you never know.

Agree 100%

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Dude.

You have decent TT.

Don’t through a monkey wrench into your endocrine system.

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  1. You normally don’t lose muscle on a cut, but you do if you go too low in calories at too low a BF% or cutting for way too long. Lower than Body weight x10, you will likely lose muscle if you are below 10% body fat. You said you are way above 10%. So I can almost guarantee that you didn’t lose muscle, you just didn’t have more.

  2. You can easily at your stage (I guess you are above 5’11?) gain 10-15 lbs of muscle in less than a year with a proper strength training plan and the willingness to eat and get fat.

  3. You are completely underestimating what you are getting yourself into. I won’t take the time to lay all risks, benefits and things to read up on out for you. That would take forever. The main problem is that you think it will be easy with steroids or enhancement. The only thing that will be easier is the muscle building part. Everything else will get more complicated, more time consuming, more heavy, more shitty feeling and more dangerous (health wise and law wise). If you want the easy way, get ab implants or go jog and forget the muscles.

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