Ryan Kennelly's 1074 Bench Press, New World Record

Training Powerlifting
81

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Well, instead of disagreeing with you, I’ll just say that you’ve made the perfect argument against powerlifting as “sport”. And it’s a shame with all the other pedestrian at best so called sports (synchronized swimming et als.) making the Olympics and powerlifting is still left behind and will continue to be.

What a shame that, and I forget his name, cannot stand on a platform in Bejing and show the world a 900 + deadlift. I think a good portion of the world would be transfixed. I also think a good portion of the world would scoff at lifts made with the assistance of canvass, denim, polyester and whatever else their using these days. What a shame that all strength athletes, budding olympic style lifters too, would not have another path to Olympic glory in a strength sport.

Anyway, like others, I’m tired of the argument - it’s futile and was futile long ago. I enjoy the quest to move heavy weight. And I admire guys, even the geared ones, that move the big stuff. That said, I’ll always be far more impressed with someone’s deadlift (and my own) rather than a geared squat or bench press. I just haven’t seen gear significantly help the deadlift and I think that is supported by the records, including Gary Heisey’s standing for 20 or more years.

I know that equipment in various sport has improved over the years. But in no other sport has equipment had such an impact. And that is irrefutable, no matter what side of the geared v. non-geared argument you stand upon. Alphabet federations (I still don’t understand how they proliferate given the lack of money in powerlifting, but they do), drugs, and gear are the three hurdles to “sport” recognition…and powerlifting has not appeared to make any strides toward any official recognition.
[/quote]

Great post. I’m in complete agreement. I really don’t care about all the stupid arguments, and I take nothing away from anyone who chooses to lift under whatever rules and regulations they chose and respect them all. I’ve made the choice to lift in what I think is the best set of rules.

82

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
What a shame that, and I forget his name, cannot stand on a platform in Bejing and show the world a 900 + deadlift. I think a good portion of the world would be transfixed.
[/quote]

Actually, I don’t think it’s a bad idea if the deadlift was put in the Olympics. It’s so similar to the current oly lifts except for the overhead part. I think many people all over the world would like it if they see it.

83

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
However, to argue that the numbers haven’t been affected in a significant way is just plain head in the sand obstinant defiance. It is beyond the inability to compare eras - it is the inability to compare lifters given all the feds, different gear and rules. And that is NOT good for the sport. The only rivalries that exist - and rivalries are good for sport - seem to be between federations, not lifters. How do you begin comparing a lifter in a single ply fed to a lifter in an anything goes fed? You can’t. And that’s not good for sport. It has become a circus side show - “see the strongman”…it has devolved from “sport”, in my opinion, because of a number of issues, gear being one of them, different feds and rules the other.

Just my opinion though…I realize this. But I like to think it’s at least an informed opinion, even if you disagree.
[/quote]

I don’t think anyone will argue that gear hasn’t aided to the substantial increase in numbers, BUT, I do think that a little credit needs to be given to the science and approach to the training as much as the gear.

The training has really changed…I can remember when all the top guys would follow Louie’s model just 5 or so years back and wouldn’t really throw on gear until the last month leading up to a meet. That’s totally different now, guys are constantly in gear trying to get more familiar and being able to adapt and handle heavier and heavier loads.

What you’ve touched on though is the big issue and the problem with Powerlifting as a whole…the sport is too damn separated with all the feds and rules! That said, there’s still competition, at least at the top and local levels. The top guys compete and go head to head in multiple different feds, and I know that Hoss Cartwright competes in both single and double-ply feds. That said though, I do think that they need to somehow unify the feds more along the lines of what USAW and IWF is/has.

My personal belief is that the unified fed must be an “anything goes” fed as far as equipment and drug testing (with strict judging on lifts)…not because I personally want that, but that’s the only way that you can have undisputed titles. Nobody wants raw lifting, the single-ply debate will always be that the double-ply feds have higher totals, so really, the only logical thing to move toward would be “anything goes,” at least for leveling the playing field and to be able to say once and for all, “who’s the strongest.”

84

[quote]undeadlift wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
What a shame that, and I forget his name, cannot stand on a platform in Bejing and show the world a 900 + deadlift. I think a good portion of the world would be transfixed.

Actually, I don’t think it’s a bad idea if the deadlift was put in the Olympics. It’s so similar to the current oly lifts except for the overhead part. I think many people all over the world would like it if they see it.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing but really, can one single lift be a “sport”?? I dunno. I’ll tell ya what though, you might possibly get some Oly guys whose shoulders are shot that could pull some impressive weights…

85

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Actually, I don’t think it’s a bad idea if the deadlift was put in the Olympics. It’s so similar to the current oly lifts except for the overhead part. I think many people all over the world would like it if they see it.

I was thinking the same thing but really, can one single lift be a “sport”?? I dunno. I’ll tell ya what though, you might possibly get some Oly guys whose shoulders are shot that could pull some impressive weights…
[/quote]

A few years back, there was talk about adding Powerlifting into the Olympics. I believe they were going to have the events be Squat, Press, and Dead, but the press would be the old overhead, not bench. Not sure what came of it other than the Olympic Committee decided to vote in other sports.

I would imagine that there would be plenty of injured Olympic lifters who would love to see something like this added, and really, I could see something like this cutting into a big chunk of the current Olympic lifting participants.

86

Bodyguard,

No one seems to question the legitimacy of the men that compete in Strongman, and yet they use suits, wraps and knee wraps, and they are allowed to hitch up deads. I have never heard a guy at a bar/resturant watching WSM say look at those cheaters; no instead they sit there amazed at their incredible strength. Just so you know, a good single ply squat suit from Inzer, Titan, or Metal can add 100-200 lbs. on the squat, and 30-50lbs. on the deadlift.

A sport doesn’t have to be in the Olympics to be legit, again strongman is a great strength sport and it is not in the Olympics, and I don’t hear a single strongman talk about it becoming an Olympic sport. How about the Highland Games? Some of the best strength athletes in the world copmpete there and it will never be an Olympic sport.

Powerlifting doesn’t need the Olympics, powerlifdting needs one or two strong leaders to unify the sport under a single ply tested, and double ply un-tested umbrella.

George

87

[quote]Dominator wrote:

I don’t think anyone will argue that gear hasn’t aided to the substantial increase in numbers, BUT, I do think that a little credit needs to be given to the science and approach to the training as much as the gear.

The training has really changed…I can remember when all the top guys would follow Louie’s model just 5 or so years back and wouldn’t really throw on gear until the last month leading up to a meet. That’s totally different now, guys are constantly in gear trying to get more familiar and being able to adapt and handle heavier and heavier loads.

What you’ve touched on though is the big issue and the problem with Powerlifting as a whole…the sport is too damn separated with all the feds and rules! That said, there’s still competition, at least at the top and local levels. The top guys compete and go head to head in multiple different feds, and I know that Hoss Cartwright competes in both single and double-ply feds. That said though, I do think that they need to somehow unify the feds more along the lines of what USAW and IWF is/has.

My personal belief is that the unified fed must be an “anything goes” fed as far as equipment and drug testing (with strict judging on lifts)…not because I personally want that, but that’s the only way that you can have undisputed titles. Nobody wants raw lifting, the single-ply debate will always be that the double-ply feds have higher totals, so really, the only logical thing to move toward would be “anything goes,” at least for leveling the playing field and to be able to say once and for all, “who’s the strongest.”
[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying and, we’re getting perilously close to the very old and tired gear v. no gear debate, but I respectfully suggest your position is tenuous.

First, I disagree with giving any appreciable credit to “science and training” as you refer to it, but yes, a little credit can go to guys relying more heavily on training in gear. I fail to see how this makes you stronger, except in gear. To me, it’s like getting “stronger” in a smith machine squat but I digress.

I think the real definitive question is, “are guys getting stronger”? If you were to graph the bench and squat progress as compared to the deadlift’s relative lack of progress, I think you’d find that the gear is in fact largely to credit for the weights we are seeing.

Finally, “anything goes” assures it never becomes a recognized sport. Any “sport” will have to be regulated in some fashion, including drugs. Powerlifting is unlikely to ever be recognized in my opinion. And its a shame because there are some remarkable men and women participating.

88

[quote]powerhouse reno wrote:
Bodyguard,

No one seems to question the legitimacy of the men that compete in Strongman, and yet they use suits, wraps and knee wraps, and they are allowed to hitch up deads. I have never heard a guy at a bar/resturant watching WSM say look at those cheaters; no instead they sit there amazed at their incredible strength. Just so you know, a good single ply squat suit from Inzer, Titan, or Metal can add 100-200 lbs. on the squat, and 30-50lbs. on the deadlift.

A sport doesn’t have to be in the Olympics to be legit, again strongman is a great strength sport and it is not in the Olympics, and I don’t hear a single strongman talk about it becoming an Olympic sport. How about the Highland Games? Some of the best strength athletes in the world copmpete there and it will never be an Olympic sport.

Powerlifting doesn’t need the Olympics, powerlifdting needs one or two strong leaders to unify the sport under a single ply tested, and double ply un-tested umbrella.

George [/quote]

I couldn’t disagree with this more. There is not an anything goes mentality in WSM as far as gear. And perhaps it’s because the events require power and mobility, but there just is no evidence of anything goes. By and large, it’s the WSM athlete moving the weight and it often requires some mobility which makes ridiculous equipment prohibitive. And hitching lifts and other such technacalities aside, they are suprisingly strict on some lifts like the overhead lifts in terms of what constitues a rep.

Granted no one sits in a bar and ponders whether WSM athletes are “cheating” as you say. You do realize that you’re injecting “cheating” into the debate and I never used or inferred such. Anyway, equipment of any kind has not had any appreciable impact on WSM results as it has had on powerlifting.

I know what various suits give on lifts thank you. What’s the point? I told you I’ve lifted geared. Again, the deadlift is the least affected lift by gear of the three lifts and it perfectly illustrates the impact gear has on the other two lifts.

I accept a sport doesn’t have to be an Olympic sport to be “legit”. But WSM and Highland have their own identity, powerlifting does not. Tell me the last time a PL event was on ESPN? Talk of unifying the sport has been going on for years with no progress whatsoever. None. Instead of standing behind the stronger orgs of the past like the IPF and such, people with this “anything goes” mentality prefer the confines of a fed that allows them to lift more with less regard for rules, gear and testing. And that’s a fact. PL has had chances to unify many times between the IPF, the AAU or the old (I think old) ADFPA.

In the end, and this of course is my conclusion, PL is really about competing against yourself. Because no matter what meet you win, you cannot compare your accomplishment across a fed against another lifter, i.e., what was the squat depth requirement, drug tested, how many plys, undergarments, wraps, weigh in time, etc. etc. etc.).

I started out wanting to total elite, or maybe make a top 100 lift, until I really pondered the above.

To have credibility (or be legit as you say), at some point you have to be able to compare apples to apples, athlete to athlete. WSM and Highlands can do this. Powerlifting cannot. Simple.

As always, just my humble opinions. Very humble, because I have not posted a top 100 lift or totalled elite - not that I have given up though.

89

Since most gear guys train in looser gear to do reps, they are stronger than their raw counter parts. Their main advantage is in the CNS and triceps development.

Since the true source of great strength is in the CNS anything that forces the CNS to become more resistant, and more synchronized in how it fires the fast twitch motor neurons will make you stronger.

Read Jack Reape’s last article where Jack talks about how training in loose gear and the advantages of this type of training.

George

90

The squat suit has a big impact on the squat events, where there is no movement. They use the squat in every major contest. I agree that most of their events don’t require powerlifting equipment, but they are not raw, as most would define raw these days. The best are not just the strongest they are also those who use the equipment the best.

I don’t want to pursue the gear raw debate, but the new body swim suits have dramatically changed swiming world records, and when the pole was changed from bamboo to aluminum, and then to modern fiberglass the past records were changed dramaically. I believe the pole vault record was in the 14ft range when aluminum was use and now they are over 19ft, that is a major change.

Powerlifting has always been about you against yourself, and if you beat someone else alone the way it is a bonus. This in one of things that makes this sport so great.

George

91

[quote]powerhouse reno wrote:
Since most gear guys train in looser gear to do reps, they are stronger than their raw counter parts. Their main advantage is in the CNS and triceps development.

Since the true source of great strength is in the CNS anything that forces the CNS to become more resistant, and more synchronized in how it fires the fast twitch motor neurons will make you stronger.

Read Jack Reape’s last article where Jack talks about how training in loose gear and the advantages of this type of training.

George [/quote]

Well then, if that is correct, and I haven’t formed an opinion one way or the other, we should all head on over to the Smith Machine and the other machines. After all, we can lift more on any machine than free weight. This is, you understand, following Reape’s claim to its logical conclusion.

92

[quote]powerhouse reno wrote:
The squat suit has a big impact on the squat events, where there is no movement. They use the squat in every major contest. I agree that most of their events don’t require powerlifting equipment, but they are not raw, as most would define raw these days. The best are not just the strongest they are also those who use the equipment the best.

I don’t want to pursue the gear raw debate, but the new body swim suits have dramatically changed swiming world records, and when the pole was changed from bamboo to aluminum, and then to modern fiberglass the past records were changed dramaically. I believe the pole vault record was in the 14ft range when aluminum was use and now they are over 19ft, that is a major change.

Powerlifting has always been about you against yourself, and if you beat someone else alone the way it is a bonus. This in one of things that makes this sport so great.

George
[/quote]

You can’t be serious about the swim suit. Too many in the know claim its the drugs. The swimsuit is nonsense.

And I do not believe over the course of many events, that WSM athletes that use equipment, whatever equipment that is I still can’t figure out beyond a suit, win. The stronger man in WSM wins. Period.

There is no equipment to help you lift a stone - other than the forearm tacky or leather;

There is no equipment to assist any manner of overhead lift, there is no equipment to give an advantage flipping a tyre, pulling a train/truck/car/chain with anchor, grip event, or tossing a keg in the air over a barrier.

Nope, strongest (as strength is determined in WSM by those particular events) man wins WSM.

We agree on your last point. I compete against my last accomplishment. If I win along the way, fine. If not and I get a PR, I’m just as pleased.

93

[quote]powerhouse reno wrote:

Read Jack Reape’s last article where Jack talks about how training in loose gear and the advantages of this type of training.

George [/quote]

From Reape:

"For example, if you can bench 315 raw, you might be able to hit 315 for 3-8 reps in a loose bench shirt. This’ll give you growth in your triceps, forearms, and chest that you might not believe.

Conservatively, my loosest single ply shirt gives me 60-70 pounds carryover. Imagine repping out 50 or more pounds than you do now. Think what that added muscle tension will do to stimulate your upper body. What about doing 5-8 reps with your max? "

Frankly, I find the above comments unrealistic at best. Sure, more reps with more weight will stimulate growth. Nowhere does he mention CNS as you do - you made that leap alone. That aside, we both know the average lifter is NOT getting 60-70 lbs from his LOOSEST bench shirt. Quite frankly, I don’t know how to characterize such a claim. Loose shirt for most - maybe 10-20 lbs.

Again, I understand the concept. But 60-70 lbs on a loose shirt is simply out of the question for the average lifter. No disrespect to the author, but I simply disagree.

I can agree to your claim about CNS work, but then again, you’re getting similiar CNS work at or near your unshirted max. Shirted work as a method to work the upper half of the lift? I can see that. But again, you got board presses and the like too.

I see it as another tool in the toolbox, may even give it a try…but I cannot get past that 60-70lb claim or an increase of 6 or so reps. Not to mention the trouble of getting in and out of one for rep work unless you have velcro straps or open back.

94

Body Guard,

The conversation has been great, as I love to talk about powerlifting, and I hope we can both learn something that we didn’t know before hand. One comment about Jack, Jack and I are friends, not close friends, but friends non the less, Jack is one of the best Master 242 lifters in the country, and on top of that he has trained with Jesse Kellum for years, Jesse is one of the greats of the sport at 198-220; so there is alot we can all learn from Jack. So, try it and you may find something you didn’t have before. Stay injury free, and lift big,

George

95

George, my name is Steve. And yes, I believe you can learn something from everyone (I’m not here to chat on the message boards :slight_smile: LOL). I’m actually going to incorporate the method, but only when my sons are around (garage gym guy and no one to help with even a loose fitting shirt). Good luck to you too.

Steve

Edit:

By the way, I do like the idea very much in view of my beat up shoulders and intend to incorporate it mainly for that benefit. I’m surprised I haven’t thought of it prior b/c that shirt is hanging there, staring at me for a long time now :slight_smile:

96

[quote]powerhouse reno wrote:
Since most gear guys train in looser gear to do reps, they are stronger than their raw counter parts.[/quote]

This is faulty logic. The reason why “gear” guys are stronger than “raw” guys is because every single federation of note allows gear, and obviously the best powerlifters are going to gravitate to them and have to use gear to be competitive. The Russian IPF team trains in a belt and wraps year round, and there are interviews with Sheiko where he says guys might not put on gear until two weeks from a meet. I certainly don’t see their strength suffering.

The same effect of CNS overload can be achieved using band tension and other means of accommodating resistance. I’m for people lifting how they want to, but arguing for gears place in the sport as making guys stronger or being safer is just silly. The reason why gear exists is because it makes you lift more weight than you otherwise could. Period.

97

Steve,

Order a HPHD single ply shirt from Inzer and cut open the back, it will give you about 30-40 lbs. and you won’t need anyone to help you on with it. The shirt will really help with shoulder support and your tri development. Best of luck training,

George

98

donut62,

Gear originally came about to help stop pec tears and shoulder injuries. In the early 1980’s there were lots and lots of pec/shoulder injuries happening among elite lifters, and many of them were career ending. Because of this all of the old school lifters embraced the shirts and suits with open arms, injuries are down a great deal from the old days.

I suffered a complete pec tendon detactment seven years ago, and the bench shirt has allowed me to compete again safely, I use several different shirts (sometimes as many four in a work out) depending on what I am trying to do.

Your statement about the Russians is simply not true. First- I don’t believe they would tell everyone what their doing anyway. Besides the fact that they have been banned and re-instated, and banned again for drug use. Not one top gear guy from any nation putts their gear on few days before a meet. I am friends with many of the top lifters and have been around for a long time. These days the top guys train year around in their gear, that’s how the top guys get 200+ from their gear.

George

99

George I do have a loose fitting denim with the velcro back that I might be able to get on myself with some effort on the sleeves and what not.

Anyway, I do agree that equipment does offer some “safety” as that is a relative term when lifting big weights. The BP and the squat probably aren’t safe to begin with at maximal limit effort. Anyway, I just caught myself mid keystroke backsliding down that familiar gear v. no gear argument lol. :slight_smile:

100

Steve,

I have a couple of denim’s as well, but you need to get an “old school” shirt; like the blast series of shirts that started shirt benching. First- because they don’t cost very much, and second because they only provide minimal support. I like the HDHP single ply from Inzer, they cost about 75 bucks and they are easy to cut all the way open. By cutting open the back they are easy to put on and you can adjust it however you want, just put a belt on to hold it in place. One that fits right will give you about 30-60lbs. and provide alot of saftey.

George