Russian Kettlebell Challenge

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]JOG wrote:
Hamster wrote:
bullsh!t. one could build an extremely effective “exercise program” using only kettlebells … or only dumbbells … or only barbells … or only sandbags … or only bodyweight … but why would one want to?[/quote]

My kettlebell experience. Whilst living in the US I went to a fitness expo. A massive Russian duped me into buying a set of KB’s. I was so impressed at the age of 18 with the guys physique and strength and he told me he had never used anything other than KB’s in his life.

I signed up for PTing with the guy. I roll up at his house and what stares me in the face. Tons of weights, Olympic Bars, Power Racks and etc. He obviously couldn’t remember the conversation we had at the expo and he says that Barbells are the only way to train for size. “KB’s are good GPP”. So much for using exclusively KB’s.

I did one session with the prick and never went back.

I think many of us forget what creates great strength and size. Deadlifts, squats and etc.

42

[quote]Get this wrote:
You guys act like KB’s are a scam Pavel invented to trick people into giving him money.

They’ve been around for centuries, the standard weights are in ‘pud’ measurements from Tsarist Russia. They’re used a great deal by Russian wrestlers, there are many textbooks about training with them and they’re part of the curriculum for coaching.

They’re not intended for aesthetics, that doesn’t mean people are sick in the head for using them.[/quote]

You know you’re right!

Kettlebells were used long long ago. Then something wonderful happened!

The changable barbell/dumbbell was invented and the Kettlebell became outdated.

Pavel brought it back made a lot of money and I admire him for his business acumen.

43

[quote]nikolo wrote:
For the poster who said that the coaches who use kettlebell’s are only doing so to profit from them, you are making quite the blanket statemet. This may be true in some cases but you are calling into question the integrity of many top notch people whose reputations are sterling.
[/quote]

My comment was “Some people swear by them, but they are usually the PT’s or Coaches who are trying to sell you something.”

We live in a world where people want to do something that is different. That makes them stand out in a crowd. The old going to a gym and doing traditional exercises is almost dead.

I love watching PT’s in commercial gyms getting people to balance on a Swiss ball whilst doing bicep curls. It is simply because the PT feels that he needs to do something different for his client to make them feel they are getting some well kept secret or amazing new exercise.

Kettlebells do this too. Swinging, cleaning, snatching, juggling and etc are new to most peoples eyes. Even though KB’s have been around for years, most people have not seen them before.

I’ve got a friend who I keep in contact with via email. This guy is your typical fad type of person. Jumps on whatever is “so hot right now”. He just told me he now has sacked his PT because Squats, Bench and Deadlift were boring (despite being in the best shape of his life) and he now has a “Russian Strength Coach” who deals exclusively with KB’s. I bet that sounds cool while chatting to the people at work around the water cooler.

I’ll keep you posted on how this goes and what sort of results he gets.

44

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Kettlebells were used long long ago. Then something wonderful happened!

The changable barbell/dumbbell was invented and the Kettlebell became outdated.

Pavel brought it back made a lot of money and I admire him for his business acumen.
[/quote]

You’re right on all those points. Pavel is very smart the way he has promoted this and made money.

And for the fact that we are discussing him for better or worse is probably making him money.

Gladiators back in the Old Roman days used to wield a heavy sword and stike a post with forehand and backhand strikes until they were so fatigued they couldn’t hold the sword.

Now that has been around since 100AD or thereabouts. Perhaps we should take that up.

45

[quote]Coach Mack wrote:
I’ve got a friend who I keep in contact with via email. This guy is your typical fad type of person. Jumps on whatever is “so hot right now”. He just told me he now has sacked his PT because Squats, Bench and Deadlift were boring (despite being in the best shape of his life) and he now has a “Russian Strength Coach” who deals exclusively with KB’s. I bet that sounds cool while chatting to the people at work around the water cooler.
[/quote]

I hear you Coach. I could just see some corporate tool yapping on about Yorgi his strength coach.

It does sound cooler and trendier than a simple PT doesn’t it.

I might fake an accent and reposition myself as a “strength coach” not a PT.

Genius.

46

Thanks for all the responses and I can see that the Pavel purchase was poor. Perhaps the book would be better, but I’ve been burned and I might see if anyone I know has a Mahler or Cottler DVD to borrow.

I have not bagged Kettlebells but I have bagged Pavel. So lets make that clear.

I’ll give the KB time.

47

[quote]Roo Boy wrote:
I have not bagged Kettlebells but I have bagged Pavel. So lets make that clear.

I’ll give the KB time. [/quote]

Good idea to give it some time. You will probably find that it is an okay tool to throw in every once in a while.

I’m glad you paid out on Pavel. That is what this site is for. From the responses I would say that The Russian Kettlebell Challenge is not that popular within the T-Nation followers and I rate their opinion highly.

48

[quote]Roo Boy wrote:
Vinny_au wrote:
I’ve got several of his books which arent to bad. KB are not really gimmick, they’ve been around for yonks.

He probably thought out the books. The DVD seemed like it was rushed.

And 90 degree leg presses have been around for yonks. Doesn’t mean they are any good.
[/quote]

Actually it makes sense that he goes more into building a program in his book, and concentrates more on the moves in the video. Pick up the book, it has what you want. Or not. What I remember when I reviewed both for this site is that in the book the principles given for building programs bore strong similarities to such advice from King and Poliquin and others. Pick up your old copy of Manly Weight Loss and start substituting KB exercises for the barbells, you won’t be far off.

It can make sense to use both KB and Olympic lifts with barbells. They do different things. Like the Olympic lifts there is a strong focus on the core, but the off-axis nature of the bells’ handles really work forearms and grip, outtasight. The more middling weight of the bells means workouts can focus more to endurance strength and anaerobic clearance than to maximal strength as in Olympic lifts. There are more degrees of freedom than with the barbells, or dumbells. All this makes them great cross-training for MMA, very time effective.

My guess is some of this “fad” - if the term applies to something this old - is being driven by the current popularity of MMA.

Basically a KB is just a DB with an alternate handle design that opens up some more dynamic possibilities for moves than simple isolation exercises. Not worth getting hostile about. Not a tool for maximum strength, might or might not be good cross-training for hypertrophy, depending on how you used them. You could do some of moves with 55 lb DBs and get some of the same benefits.

49

[quote]Coach Mack wrote:
nikolo wrote:
For the poster who said that the coaches who use kettlebell’s are only doing so to profit from them, you are making quite the blanket statemet. This may be true in some cases but you are calling into question the integrity of many top notch people whose reputations are sterling.

My comment was “Some people swear by them, but they are usually the PT’s or Coaches who are trying to sell you something.”

We live in a world where people want to do something that is different. That makes them stand out in a crowd. The old going to a gym and doing traditional exercises is almost dead.

I love watching PT’s in commercial gyms getting people to balance on a Swiss ball whilst doing bicep curls. It is simply because the PT feels that he needs to do something different for his client to make them feel they are getting some well kept secret or amazing new exercise.

Kettlebells do this too. Swinging, cleaning, snatching, juggling and etc are new to most peoples eyes. Even though KB’s have been around for years, most people have not seen them before.

I’ve got a friend who I keep in contact with via email. This guy is your typical fad type of person. Jumps on whatever is “so hot right now”. He just told me he now has sacked his PT because Squats, Bench and Deadlift were boring (despite being in the best shape of his life) and he now has a “Russian Strength Coach” who deals exclusively with KB’s. I bet that sounds cool while chatting to the people at work around the water cooler.

I’ll keep you posted on how this goes and what sort of results he gets.
[/quote]

Ok, I see what you’re saying(excuse my lack of comprehension), and much of what you say is true. As far as your friend, if the kb’s are used properly he will continue to get in better shape. If he wants to total 2000 pounds then they aren’t the tool for that. Everything has its place if used wisely and in accordance with personal goals.

50

[quote]nikolo wrote:
Ok, I see what you’re saying(excuse my lack of comprehension), and much of what you say is true. As far as your friend, if the kb’s are used properly he will continue to get in better shape. If he wants to total 2000 pounds then they aren’t the tool for that. Everything has its place if used wisely and in accordance with personal goals.
[/quote]

You are right that everything, within reason, has a place. KB’s, sandbags, sleds, tyres, sledgehammers and etc. They all contribute to a well rounded athlete.

I think you would cheat yourself by only using one means of training when there is so much out there that can benefit you in so many ways.

We have Kettlebells at my Athletic Dep and my own home gym. I use them at various stages of the year and so do my athletes. They are fun and hard work. I also use the other means listed above. The Barbell is still king, but there are plenty of objects to add another dimension to training.

51

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Get this wrote:
You guys act like KB’s are a scam Pavel invented to trick people into giving him money.

They’ve been around for centuries, the standard weights are in ‘pud’ measurements from Tsarist Russia. They’re used a great deal by Russian wrestlers, there are many textbooks about training with them and they’re part of the curriculum for coaching.

They’re not intended for aesthetics, that doesn’t mean people are sick in the head for using them.

You know you’re right!

Kettlebells were used long long ago. Then something wonderful happened!

The changable barbell/dumbbell was invented and the Kettlebell became outdated.

Pavel brought it back made a lot of money and I admire him for his business acumen.

[/quote]

Just because something hasn’t been used in a while, in the U.S. at least, doesn’t mean it is of no value. Another example aside from kettlebells is club swinging. They became outdated and are enjoying quite the comeback with Coach Sonnon leading the way in that area and Martin Rooney modelling some of his sledge work after Sonnon’s CST.

Zeb, have you ever used kettlebell’s? If you have, and didn’t like them then fair enough. If not, give 'em a swing, a snatch and a windmill, and see what the Party already knows Comrade:))

52

[quote]Coach Mack wrote:
nikolo wrote:
Ok, I see what you’re saying(excuse my lack of comprehension), and much of what you say is true. As far as your friend, if the kb’s are used properly he will continue to get in better shape. If he wants to total 2000 pounds then they aren’t the tool for that. Everything has its place if used wisely and in accordance with personal goals.

You are right that everything, within reason, has a place. KB’s, sandbags, sleds, tyres, sledgehammers and etc. They all contribute to a well rounded athlete.

I think you would cheat yourself by only using one means of training when there is so much out there that can benefit you in so many ways.

We have Kettlebells at my Athletic Dep and my own home gym. I use them at various stages of the year and so do my athletes. They are fun and hard work. I also use the other means listed above. The Barbell is still king, but there are plenty of objects to add another dimension to training.[/quote]

Agreed.

53

I just read Dan John’s latest issue of “Get Up” and he says some very complimentary things about KBs. His exact quote is, “Kettlebells are the single best invention for group training.” That’s not a statement saying he’s abandoned Oly-lifting or that its even the best way to train individuals, but certainly one could see there are value in their use. Perhaps this is an example of “product placement” but so far as I know Dan doesn’t sell KBs, or much of anything for that matter.

54

[quote]Head_locker wrote:
I just read Dan John’s latest issue of “Get Up” and he says some very complimentary things about KBs. His exact quote is, “Kettlebells are the single best invention for group training.” That’s not a statement saying he’s abandoned Oly-lifting or that its even the best way to train individuals, but certainly one could see there are value in their use. Perhaps this is an example of “product placement” but so far as I know Dan doesn’t sell KBs, or much of anything for that matter.[/quote]

That could well be true. Training groups can be an absolute prick if the lifts are very technical. A simple swing and many KB exercises are not. Some will disagree.

I find with my groups, sandbag and sled training to be the best. They can compete against each other and technique isn’t as crucial as it would be with a BB and olympic lifts.

55

[quote]Coach Mack wrote:
Head_locker wrote:
I just read Dan John’s latest issue of “Get Up” and he says some very complimentary things about KBs. His exact quote is, “Kettlebells are the single best invention for group training.” That’s not a statement saying he’s abandoned Oly-lifting or that its even the best way to train individuals, but certainly one could see there are value in their use. Perhaps this is an example of “product placement” but so far as I know Dan doesn’t sell KBs, or much of anything for that matter.

That could well be true. Training groups can be an absolute prick if the lifts are very technical. A simple swing and many KB exercises are not. Some will disagree.

I find with my groups, sandbag and sled training to be the best. They can compete against each other and technique isn’t as crucial as it would be with a BB and olympic lifts.

[/quote]

There is a full spectrum on the technique, but I find it is all fairly technical in that none of it is any simpler than having, say, a good, safe deadlift. No, not even the swings. It provides a nice launching ramp for folks who can benefit from getting more technical, is how I see it, because if you blow the control of your core or breathing on a single swing, you’re less likely to pay with a minor injury. Keep your bad form for swing after swing, on the other hand, and you can definitely do yourself a mischief.

Get your form dialed in, on the other hand, and your rep count zooms. In a group context, what you wind up with is a bunch of folks competing to have better form. After about twenty or thirty sessions of this I predict you will see a surprisingly large increase in sandbag throughput.

56

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
There is a full spectrum on the technique, but I find it is all fairly technical in that none of it is any simpler than having, say, a good, safe deadlift. No, not even the swings. It provides a nice launching ramp for folks who can benefit from getting more technical, is how I see it, because if you blow the control of your core or breathing on a single swing, you’re less likely to pay with a minor injury. Keep your bad form for swing after swing, on the other hand, and you can definitely do yourself a mischief.

Get your form dialed in, on the other hand, and your rep count zooms. In a group context, what you wind up with is a bunch of folks competing to have better form. After about twenty or thirty sessions of this I predict you will see a surprisingly large increase in sandbag throughput.[/quote]

I don’t really understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that athletes compete on how good their technique is and not what their weight lifted is?

57

[quote]Roo Boy wrote:
endgamer711 wrote:
There is a full spectrum on the technique, but I find it is all fairly technical in that none of it is any simpler than having, say, a good, safe deadlift. No, not even the swings. It provides a nice launching ramp for folks who can benefit from getting more technical, is how I see it, because if you blow the control of your core or breathing on a single swing, you’re less likely to pay with a minor injury. Keep your bad form for swing after swing, on the other hand, and you can definitely do yourself a mischief.

Get your form dialed in, on the other hand, and your rep count zooms. In a group context, what you wind up with is a bunch of folks competing to have better form. After about twenty or thirty sessions of this I predict you will see a surprisingly large increase in sandbag throughput.

I don’t really understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that athletes compete on how good their technique is and not what their weight lifted is?
[/quote]

Yes. You see the KB increments in weight are too gross for athletes to compete on weight. In contests everybody uses a bell of the same size, and you wind up competing on reps, or reps per unit time. This turns out to be extremely dependent on technique, so bottom line you are competing on form, as well as anaerobic conditioning, core conditioning, endurance strength, and always always technique in control of core and breathing.

In competition if you break form the rep doesn’t count, or can even end your trial and stop your count from incrementing.

Using a given very heavy bell for an exercise of high difficulty, a contest might consist of relatively few reps, maybe fewer than five, but the issue would still be who got the most, or who got the most soonest.

58

Well, anyway, what I’d advise is, unless you live right next to where they make them, you probably paid a chunk of change for the bells you’ve got. Sometimes I wonder if the price is up so high on bells just to justify the high shipping costs. Anyhow, I think if you get the book, which is cheap in comparison, you will understand better, and even you may wind up finding the video comes to seem more useful to you.

To get the rep count up is why Pavel is not only showing you the move but also babbling on about what he is doing with core and breathing. Besides cracking silly deadpan Russian jokes, I mean.

This stuff is a bit like Pilates. You can learn it yourself from a video but you are lightyears ahead to have a coach who has actually been trained by an expert, and can spot what you’re doing wrong a month or two before you can.

And if you like KB, wait till you check out clubbells

59

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
Well, anyway, what I’d advise is, unless you live right next to where they make them, you probably paid a chunk of change for the bells you’ve got. Sometimes I wonder if the price is up so high on bells just to justify the high shipping costs. Anyhow, I think if you get the book, which is cheap in comparison, you will understand better, and even you may wind up finding the video comes to seem more useful to you.

To get the rep count up is why Pavel is not only showing you the move but also babbling on about what he is doing with core and breathing. Besides cracking silly deadpan Russian jokes, I mean.

This stuff is a bit like Pilates. You can learn it yourself from a video but you are lightyears ahead to have a coach who has actually been trained by an expert, and can spot what you’re doing wrong a month or two before you can.

And if you like KB, wait till you check out clubbells[/quote]

You’re right. The shipping is a huge cost. There are other cheaper sources of kbs that are just as good as dragondoor though. I’ll list some links of other sources if people are interested.

I do a GPP workout twice a week imbetween my 4 weight workouts. About 30-40% of the stuff I do during the GPP workouts consist of high rep kb cleans, jerks, and snatches. I have found this to be great for my grip and stamina, in addition to helping recovery along and improving work capacity. Just my two cents.

Oh screw it, I’ll put some links for cheaper, equal quality kbs now.

*** www.k2fitness.net (about 20 bucks cheaper and exact replica of dragondoor)

*** www.power-systems.com (Kbs in lbs, not poods or kg - Americanized Kbs!)

60

[quote]nikolo wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Get this wrote:
You guys act like KB’s are a scam Pavel invented to trick people into giving him money.

They’ve been around for centuries, the standard weights are in ‘pud’ measurements from Tsarist Russia. They’re used a great deal by Russian wrestlers, there are many textbooks about training with them and they’re part of the curriculum for coaching.

They’re not intended for aesthetics, that doesn’t mean people are sick in the head for using them.

You know you’re right!

Kettlebells were used long long ago. Then something wonderful happened!

The changable barbell/dumbbell was invented and the Kettlebell became outdated.

Pavel brought it back made a lot of money and I admire him for his business acumen.

Just because something hasn’t been used in a while, in the U.S. at least, doesn’t mean it is of no value. Another example aside from kettlebells is club swinging. They became outdated and are enjoying quite the comeback with Coach Sonnon leading the way in that area and Martin Rooney modelling some of his sledge work after Sonnon’s CST.

Zeb, have you ever used kettlebell’s? If you have, and didn’t like them then fair enough. If not, give 'em a swing, a snatch and a windmill, and see what the Party already knows Comrade:))
[/quote]

Yea, I own a pair of Kettlebells, I stated earlier he got me too.

I own a club as well.

Nothing can replace the barbell and dumbbell system.

But variety is good.