[quote]ZEB wrote:
Yea, I own a pair of Kettlebells, I stated earlier he got me too.
I own a club as well.
Nothing can replace the barbell and dumbbell system.
But variety is good.
[/quote]
Agreed.
I picked up my first Kbell when Coach Davies used them in his Renegade Training (~2001). Many of us followed his workouts at the time. I made awesome progress. Sure, I used a dumbbell for the kbell lifts at the time, but the kbell is unique and changes the way some of the lifts are performed.
I also picked up Pavel’s Russian Kbell Challenge book and video. I wasn’t interested in the workouts, I just wanted to know how to do them correctly. I also have Mike Mahler’s DVD and most recently, the Renegade kbell DVD’s (Heavy Metal). Pavel’s are overpriced, Mike Mahler’s is pretty good, and Coach Davies’ were the best priced ($15 for 2 DVD’s).
I have used Kbells and bodyweight exercises as my sole training medium in the past for a few months, but I lost strength and size.
However, using them in addition to weights and other stuff is where you get the most out of them.
Like others mentioned, they are just another tool. But the core of my training will always be basic exercises with a barbell.
I now use Kbells for warm-up/recovery purposes in my training.
[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Yea, I own a pair of Kettlebells, I stated earlier he got me too.
I own a club as well.
Nothing can replace the barbell and dumbbell system.
But variety is good.
Agreed.
I picked up my first Kbell when Coach Davies used them in his Renegade Training (~2001). Many of us followed his workouts at the time. I made awesome progress. Sure, I used a dumbbell for the kbell lifts at the time, but the kbell is unique and changes the way some of the lifts are performed.
I also picked up Pavel’s Russian Kbell Challenge book and video. I wasn’t interested in the workouts, I just wanted to know how to do them correctly. I also have Mike Mahler’s DVD and most recently, the Renegade kbell DVD’s (Heavy Metal). Pavel’s are overpriced, Mike Mahler’s is pretty good, and Coach Davies’ were the best priced ($15 for 2 DVD’s).
I have used Kbells and bodyweight exercises as my sole training medium in the past for a few months, but I lost strength and size.
However, using them in addition to weights and other stuff is where you get the most out of them.
Like others mentioned, they are just another tool. But the core of my training will always be basic exercises with a barbell.
I now use Kbells for warm-up/recovery purposes in my training.[/quote]
It’s fun to argue which is better. And when those arguments come up I will always side with the barbell and dumbell crowd.
With that said, I think variety is important. That’s one of the reasons that I use strong man implements as well as machines.
I am of the persuasion that it’s all good if used properly!
If you are really interested in being totally buff and jacked do a search for Dave Tate’s article entitled “Don’t be a Dick. Try Tricks with Brick’s”. I know it sounds pretty corny but it totally rocks. I’ve been doing extra tricep brick backs to really bring out the horse shoes on my tri’s.
Have a read over his complex work…the BRICKSTER is a killer compound exercise. When you have a good foundation you can do some Brick Busters, Brick Blasters and Brick Benchers. I’m not sure if the article was on T-Nation or whether it was over on EliteFTS. Either way its a great read and well worth going to the trouble finding it.
You forget all about KB’s vs DB’s and BB’s by the time you are done.
I got Pavel’s KB dvd too sometime ago.
for the price lots of $$$$ but it is very brief, I think less than an hour runtime.
KBs are a great stength tool, and should be part of the overall arsenal.
that said Pavel’s stuff is WAY TOO Comercial and EXPENSIVE. His books are little more than infomercials in print. too bad because it seems that all this hype and marketing is turning some people off KBs and one arm lifts, which are great! now I just stick to the very good FREE articles you can print from off the website.
[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
I have used Kbells and bodyweight exercises as my sole training medium in the past for a few months, but I lost strength and size.[/quote]
Yes, you can expect that result. I think if your goal is hypertrophy you will want to be pretty careful about how you integrate bells or calisthenics into your program. It’s like a BB doing too much cardio.
Because of what they can do for grip, core strength, and stamina, bells are great cross-training for sports that want those things. Someone involved in MMA is not particularly going to want to be hyoo-ooge, especially if they are near the top of their weight class and don’t feel inclined to try out the next larger size of opponent. In any case, fighters have too much else to train, and the volume of training works against increasing size.
If what you want is to be good in a fight, at some point you give up the ultimate goal of great size. You need too much practice. On the other hand, train enough and you will look hard as rocks, if you watch how you eat. There is nothing unimpressive about how that looks, especially on a large frame.
Anyhow, in this sort of context, you can definitely make a complete strength cross-training program based only on KB, if you were forced to that choice. Otherwise, you really want more variety in your training, almost regardless of what your goals are.
I think with the KB you get really different results depending on whether you treat them as a discipline in their own right and get into all the technique, or if you just look at them as sandbags with handles and say “it’s all good.”
[quote]ZEB wrote:
It’s fun to argue which is better. And when those arguments come up I will always side with the barbell and dumbell crowd.
With that said, I think variety is important. That’s one of the reasons that I use strong man implements as well as machines.
I am of the persuasion that it’s all good if used properly!
[/quote]
It’s really a dumb argument if you think about it. Now, if we go with the “what if you were on a deserted island and had to pick one” scenario, then without question I would pick adjustable barbells and dumbbells over KBs. But I’m not on an island and I like my KBs. I own 6 cast, 2 Kettlestack handles, and got another on cast KB backorder. Have I been duped? Nope. I know they’re expensive, but I really enjoy using them, so I didn’t mind spending the money. Besides, it ain’t like they’re going to break or wear out.
Shipping is a flat $7.50 for weights under 32 kg and $13.00 for 32 and above. Don’t know how they swing that shipping price but they do. That’s probably why the last 2 orders I place I received an email saying the KBs were on backorder. The handles are perfectly round, but they may be a bit thicker than the Dragon Door KBs. The paint is a bit rough, but for the money you’ll save, go out and buy some enamel spray paint and give it a nice, shiny finish if you want. I actually like Pavel but I do not give him undying loyalty. Don’t be fooled by members of the “Kettlebell Kult” who tell you that Dragon Door KBs are the “original” and “authentic” KBs. The only place to get “authentic” KBs is from Russia and Easter Europe. Every thing else is going to be a copy.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It’s fun to argue which is better. And when those arguments come up I will always side with the barbell and dumbell crowd.
With that said, I think variety is important. That’s one of the reasons that I use strong man implements as well as machines.
I am of the persuasion that it’s all good if used properly!
It’s really a dumb argument if you think about it. Now, if we go with the “what if you were on a deserted island and had to pick one” scenario, then without question I would pick adjustable barbells and dumbbells over KBs. But I’m not on an island and I like my KBs. I own 6 cast, 2 Kettlestack handles, and got another on cast KB backorder. Have I been duped? Nope. I know they’re expensive, but I really enjoy using them, so I didn’t mind spending the money. Besides, it ain’t like they’re going to break or wear out.
Shipping is a flat $7.50 for weights under 32 kg and $13.00 for 32 and above. Don’t know how they swing that shipping price but they do. That’s probably why the last 2 orders I place I received an email saying the KBs were on backorder. The handles are perfectly round, but they may be a bit thicker than the Dragon Door KBs. The paint is a bit rough, but for the money you’ll save, go out and buy some enamel spray paint and give it a nice, shiny finish if you want. I actually like Pavel but I do not give him undying loyalty. Don’t be fooled by members of the “Kettlebell Kult” who tell you that Dragon Door KBs are the “original” and “authentic” KBs. The only place to get “authentic” KBs is from Russia and Easter Europe. Every thing else is going to be a copy.[/quote]
I agree with absolutely everything you said…except they actually originated in Scotland.
Here’s a gif file I found that shows really good snatch technique. This is what kettlebell lifters use in competitions. It’s subtle, but notice that he doesn’t let the KB flip over his hand, but let’s it just roll around his arm before settling on the back of his forearm. This is a very efficient technique that also saves your grip. It’ll let you do lots of reps to really get your heart pumping. Most importantly, it will not hurt or bang up your forearm.
This technique is known as the “corkscrew” snatch. I believe Steve Cotter shows the technique on his DVD. You will not find this technique described or shown in either the RKC book or the DVD. It’s not even taught at the RKC certification. The “official” RKC technique still involves flipping the KB over your arm. You control the impact on your forearm by tightening your grip and/or bending your knees at impact to absorb the shock. There’s nothing fundamentally bad about that, but you need to maintain focus. If you use KBs for cardio, like I do, and you’re already fatigue but want to crank out a few extra reps before you go puke, your technique might get sloppy. Forgetting to bend your knees or not tightening your grip can lead to a hurtin’ forearm. Ever since I learned the corkscrew I haven’t gone back.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Here’s a gif file I found that shows really good snatch technique. This is what kettlebell lifters use in competitions. It’s subtle, but notice that he doesn’t let the KB flip over his hand, but let’s it just roll around his arm before settling on the back of his forearm. This is a very efficient technique that also saves your grip. It’ll let you do lots of reps to really get your heart pumping. Most importantly, it will not hurt or bang up your forearm.
This technique is known as the “corkscrew” snatch. I believe Steve Cotter shows the technique on his DVD. You will not find this technique described or shown in either the RKC book or the DVD. It’s not even taught at the RKC certification. The “official” RKC technique still involves flipping the KB over your arm. You control the impact on your forearm by tightening your grip and/or bending your knees at impact to absorb the shock. There’s nothing fundamentally bad about that, but you need to maintain focus. If you use KBs for cardio, like I do, and you’re already fatigue but want to crank out a few extra reps before you go puke, your technique might get sloppy. Forgetting to bend your knees or not tightening your grip can lead to a hurtin’ forearm. Ever since I learned the corkscrew I haven’t gone back.[/quote]
I’ve taught a few ladies the corkscrew in my time…and believe me they looked back(over their shoulder)when I first showed them.
I am not sure why so many people here at T-Nation seem to be so black at white when it comes to their approach to training? I know that is a bit of a generalisation as a few people have posted quite open minded views but you get a fair bit of ‘…X…sucks and or Y is brilliant’. I can always see some merit in just about everything presented here and elsewhere when it comes to training. To say that KB’s are a gimmick, or crossfit sucks, or cardio is crap, or that westside rules, or bodybuilding isn’t functional, stretching is overrated, a calorie is a calorie is just plain stupid. Why do so many T-Nation members spend so much time painting themselves into a corner?
[quote]ManMeat wrote:
I am not sure why so many people here at T-Nation seem to be so black at white when it comes to their approach to training? I know that is a bit of a generalisation as a few people have posted quite open minded views but you get a fair bit of ‘…X…sucks and or Y is brilliant’. I can always see some merit in just about everything presented here and elsewhere when it comes to training. To say that KB’s are a gimmick, or crossfit sucks, or cardio is crap, or that westside rules, or bodybuilding isn’t functional, stretching is overrated, a calorie is a calorie is just plain stupid. Why do so many T-Nation members spend so much time painting themselves into a corner?[/quote]
this is the best post i have seen in the last 45-60 minutes, which is coincidentally, exactly how long your training sessions must last. anything more leads to gross catabolism, and anything less insufficiently stimulates gains. but i agree with everything that you said, even though that was actually my suggestion that you stole from alwyn “the bollocksy brit” cosgrove whom actually ripped it off from me.
but whatever makes you feel better.
i am really really really beginning to wonder if you are indeed man “meat” … you behave much more like a meat substite … something with a lot of soy … tofu?
I agree that the RKC dvd could of outlined a workout or two.Mostly it’s just an instuctional dvd.The book is a good companion for the dvd.When everyone complains about price remember your paying for someones knowledge as you would if you had a personal trainer.Sometimes it’s going to be good sometimes not.Put it on e-bay and sell to someone else if your not satisfied.
I can tell you Pavel is not a scammer but he is a bussiness man as well as a strength/conditioning educator.He doesn’t let his knowledge go at a cheap price.He uses barbells to train with also.The KB is another tool in the arsenal of strength.They may work for you or they may not.Strength guru Louie Simmons has been useing them with good sucsess with his guys and Donnie Thompson is also a KB user.They both still use barbells and dumbells in their training.I think the Griz just had a bad experience with that russian pt guy.
You learned a lesson there mate.If you think putting a 106lb KB over your head is a gimmick or doing a turkish get up with one is for easy you should give it a try.You may have a change of heart.I use KB’s as assistance exercises and love’em.They pricey but will last a lifetime and should you decide to sell them you can get almost what you paid for them unlike oly weights and bars.
[quote]Steve B. wrote:
When everyone complains about price remember your paying for someones knowledge as you would if you had a personal trainer.
[/quote]
I agree with your statements except for this one. I think this is a load of crap. Personal, one-on-one training is vastly different from an instructional DVD. I don’t even think the RKC certification should be based on personal training rates because you are being trained in a group, not individually. Then again, I’m cheap.
Mike, i agree with you one on one training is diffrent from a dvd.You can’t ask a dvd questions and it can’t tell you what your doing wrong.The fact is though it is someone knoweledge that they themselves learned and probably had to pay for through school some kind of instruction or personal experience.It’s your choice if you want to obtain that knowledge or not.
If i was intrested i would of asked around first on a few forums on what people thought about this particular dvd.That’s the cool thing about the forums you can learn through others persnal experince at the cost of your time to read whats out there.
