[quote]OARSMAN wrote:
supermick wrote:
i think this has riled u a little as someone has insulted rowing. I actually played union here in England and used a C2 rower as my primary cardio - intervals, aerobic power workouts the lot. I picked up tips along the way from the uni rowing team members who were a very dedicated lot.
What really pissed me off was that I read on this site, which is supposedly one of the more enlightened training sites on the web.
For members to post such stupid,uninformed intolerant bullshit is ridiculous, and very, very disappointing.
Concerning your rant there are reasons for the lack of massiveness in Rugby. Your men at the line of scrimmage only need to be active for a short amount of time.
yes of course, the amount of running at all positions in rugby accounts for the relative lack of size compared to american footballers. American football has become highly specialized and is infinitely more complex than Rugby.
I just hate it when uneducated foreigners (to the nuances of the sport) dismiss American football as ‘pussy’ or not rigorous because of ‘play stoppage’ when they don’t have a friggin’ idea of what they are talking about.
I am in the unique position in that I’ve participated in all three. I can say categorically:
- you get hit a lot harder in American football than you do in Rugby.
Why?
a. In rugby, the first thing you learn to do is tackle properly, since you don’t wear as much protection - you can’t throw your body around like you can in American football without suffering the consequences.
b. the forward pass changes the whole dynamic of the game. In rugby it’s more like a moving pile of people across the field - the only time you really have the opportunity to crush someone is when you punt the ball away and the fullback will be there to field it - if your backs and flankers have the speed maybe they can get a good lick in. In American football - it’s pretty much geared toward a fast acceleration and a brutal hit - pretty much on every play
c. in American football - the guys are just much bigger - so just on basic physics alone the hits are going to be more ‘ballistic’ as they say.
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Other than X-country skiing - rowing is the most CV demanding sport there is. You can make the argument about say Tour de France level cycling - but I would rebut by saying that oarsmen outweigh cyclists and skiiers by a good 60-80 lbs. Their V02 Max relative to body weight is off the charts.
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Rowing is also perhaps the most training intensive sport (relative to duration of event) in the world. Consider that world-class oarsman will log over 200K a week on the water or rowing machine + 3-4 weight training sessions for a 6 minute event gives you an idea at the physiological demands of maintaining AT level cardio output/with corresponding high power for that amount of time
Although powerful and strong this hardly defines them as athletes due to their lack of aerobic conditioning. prop forward needs to be explosive (Line out, taking short balls etc), perform exhausting isometric style exercise (Scrummaging) and have the gas (Vo2 max) to go about and suppport a break or whatever. Its the latter component that really seperates the two sports people as generally, a rugby player needs way more aerobically than your football guys do.
I disagree completely one point. To suggest that American footballers are not athletes is ludicrous. Granted many specific position players may not have the CV fitness of a rugger, but usually those guys will blow them out of the water in terms of sheer strength and in some cases agility. Line play in American football is incredibly difficult, not just any big man can play - not only do you have to be as strong as a horse (many NFL level linemen can bench well over 500lbs) but incredibly nimble and agile as well. That’s like saying Oly Lifters are not athletes because they aren’t aerobically fit.
Anyway, but not for any physiological differences, it’s just the natural adaptation to the nature of the sport. I personally think the NFL (American Football league) has gotten ridiculous with its emphasis on sheer massiveness. That can’t be healthy.
However, im certian your running backs (I dont know that many names here) have the athletic-ness to excell should they be allowed to try out.
More than definite. I’m convinced if the USA channeled it’s sporting energy to Rugby instead of American Football it would dominate the game. It wouldn’t even be close. We just have a ridiculous pool of talent to choose from on this side of the pond.
Concerning pads etc - complete bollocks really. The helmets basically cut down scrapes, cuts and the like but studies prove that your still likely to get concussed with or without one.
Really? Players in the NFL get concussions all the time. Just yesterday, D’shea Townsend from the Pittsburgh Steelers left the game against the Chicago Bears with a concussion after nailing a wide receiver. That goes to show you the ferocity of the hits that even with those helmets they are still getting concussions.
Shoulder pads make it easier on the tackle but less ability to “dig” the shoulder in imo.
Whatever the reason, man, the point is that the ruggers slag American footballers for wearing shoulder pads and helmets, but now they are wearing them too, a bit of a double standard, you think?
What is going on is that they are realizing that ruggers are getting bigger, stronger, and faster and dudes are starting to get really fucked up. It’s not ‘pussy’ to wear padding. It’s smart. That lets you play the game longer. Which is supposed to the be the whole point isn’t it? If you’re just into getting pummelled then go join the Pride circuit or something like that. Your odds of getting paid are a lot higher.
I wish people would drop this macho bullshit attitude, it really is retarded.
I like rowing, steve redrave and Mat pinsent are hero’s here and rightly so!
Obviously, I like rowing too. Steve Redgrave is a stud. So is Pinsent - a very big dude.
cheers,
[/quote]
couple of points -
Its hard to state conclusively that your football is infinately more complex. Its all relative to whatever level you have played at. Im sure international rugby teams have just as many calls (plays) as NFL teams in certain elements of their game.
Dorian west, the ex england hooker had to know 70+ calls just for line outs. In addition he played “man out” on Englands defensibe line. A position where you’d take a lot of contact and have the responsability of calling the defensive line to rush in an attempt to cut doen opposition time on the ball. All this in addition to his role in the scrum and ability to heel a channel 1 or 2 ball at will, to call an 8 man drive, react to a set piece back row move - knowing how to “block” and support at restarts (of which there are infinate varieties - all very complex imo. Your football is too.
Regarding hits…please look…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1456417717068146447&q=rugby+hits
i dont want to turn this into a your sport isnt as hard as ours as its all relative but being hit by a samoan is no joke.
Regarding your point of people moving across the pitch - id argue this is only relevant in unskilled games where kids “watch the ball” - when people know their rols its much more dynamic and lines are straighter/hit harder.
I agree about the VO2 max statements. We had several documentaries on rowing following the fab 4 as they were known on their training pre sydney 2000. Pinsent, cracknell etc - rowing till they collapsed. Impressive and dedicated. Im a fan as i say and id never dismiss this as a gay pasttime.
Im gonna stick with my point o conditioning. Id agree that in terms of strength most NFL guys would blow most rugby guys out the water as your game involves this component much more than rugby. However, They are not necessarily more agile (jason robinson, christian cullen etc) and in my opinion to be considered an athlete a variety of physical attributed are needed - the conditioning of the aerobic system is one and i very much doubt the guys in the line of scrimmage have this - this is reflected in the fact that most would be described as obese in a variety of body composition tests (Calipers, under water testing, BMI -yeah i know its crap).
Your spot on concerning the NFL’s obsession with massiveness. Sadly though due to money top sport revolves around winning as a priority (and rightly so) not the athletes health, unfortunately. I feel this reflects the blatant gear use (AAS) in your sport compared to rugby (although granted - it happens. Whether thats right or wrong is another matter.
Also agree on your talent pool statement. Probably got better facilites all round too.
cheers