cool liquidmercury.
will be keen to hear your thoughts on the two newer studies sited above. thanks for all the effort pulling these together. nice blog, too.
mc
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
That is only the case if you can’t time manage. I’ve found that it’s quite possible to run 12 practices a week, 3 of which are lifting, quite successfully. If it’s a training camp week then you might see more practices.[/quote]
I’ll second this.
You may find you need to eat your way through the program, so to speak but it is doable. Rowing is probably the “endurance” (I use this term loosely, rowing isn’t an endurance sport) sport best suited to lifting. I find I have a ton of work capacity and can handle lower rest in the gym, and have a hard time overtraining from a few years of high volume.
[quote]MadMushroomMan15 wrote:
I agree that strength training does not decrease endurance per say, but the time needed to be spent gaining strength necessitates a decrease in time spent doing endurance training. Therefore, you lose endurance. It’s very difficult to do both at the same time and find marked improvements in strength.[/quote]
I disagree, personally haven’t seen any serious decrement in strength that was purely a rowing issue and not a “stupid programming on my part” issue.
And if not, that’s why we have periodization
[quote]justkevin wrote:
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
That is only the case if you can’t time manage. I’ve found that it’s quite possible to run 12 practices a week, 3 of which are lifting, quite successfully. If it’s a training camp week then you might see more practices.[/quote]
I’ll second this.
You may find you need to eat your way through the program, so to speak but it is doable. Rowing is probably the “endurance” (I use this term loosely, rowing isn’t an endurance sport) sport best suited to lifting. I find I have a ton of work capacity and can handle lower rest in the gym, and have a hard time overtraining from a few years of high volume. [/quote]
I agree with this. Even with all the extra endurance work I have put in such as 60 minute ergs and UT1 erg pieces my strength is still going up apart from in squat which is getting frustrating now. I think with good nutrition and the right mindset you can still have successful lifting sessions.
Just out of interest, do you rowers have any idea why my squat has hit such a plateau, whereas my deadlift, barbell rows and bench are still progressing nicely? I think my nutrition and supplementation is pretty good at moment (I have taken some advice form LM’s blog) and even with the increase in cardio I have put in, I still do not feel like I am burning out.
[quote]Ironwarrior25 wrote:
Just out of interest, do you rowers have any idea why my squat has hit such a plateau, whereas my deadlift, barbell rows and bench are still progressing nicely? I think my nutrition and supplementation is pretty good at moment (I have taken some advice form LM’s blog) and even with the increase in cardio I have put in, I still do not feel like I am burning out.[/quote]
It is most likely one of these issues:
Not enough stimulation
Not enough recovery
Symmetry issues (hamstings/glutes/quads may not be proportionate and it could be that your weakest set of muscles is holding you back)
When’s the last time you changed things up in regards to your squat? What are you doing for it now? Have you tried eating your way through it?
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
[quote]Ironwarrior25 wrote:
Just out of interest, do you rowers have any idea why my squat has hit such a plateau, whereas my deadlift, barbell rows and bench are still progressing nicely? I think my nutrition and supplementation is pretty good at moment (I have taken some advice form LM’s blog) and even with the increase in cardio I have put in, I still do not feel like I am burning out.[/quote]
It is most likely one of these issues:
Not enough stimulation
Not enough recovery
Symmetry issues (hamstings/glutes/quads may not be proportionate and it could be that your weakest set of muscles is holding you back)
When’s the last time you changed things up in regards to your squat? What are you doing for it now? Have you tried eating your way through it?[/quote]
My rep ranges for my strength work including squats usually goes 5, 5, 3, 3. This has worked well for every other exercise as I have made very good progress. My erg times are improving too and I have been taking your advice on doing more aerobic work like 60 minute ergs and my numbers in exercises like rows, deadlifts, bench and pull ups are going up.
Are you having to make weight? If not, I’d say up the calories a bit for 2-3 weeks, switch to a higher volume approach and say run a German Volume Training template doing squats, 10x10 with the same weigh 90 second rest.
Try that once a week, and have another day where you do some unilateral work (single leg squats or leg press) with some similar volume as well as some more direct glute/hamstring work. For your mobility work (which I hope you’re doing) add in glute bridges or weighted thrusts.
Hamstrings, go with some higher rep RDL’s. Something along this protocol is about the best advice I can give without seeing your log for the last few months/current pictures/form.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Are you having to make weight? If not, I’d say up the calories a bit for 2-3 weeks, switch to a higher volume approach and say run a German Volume Training template doing squats, 10x10 with the same weigh 90 second rest.
Try that once a week, and have another day where you do some unilateral work (single leg squats or leg press) with some similar volume as well as some more direct glute/hamstring work. For your mobility work (which I hope you’re doing) add in glute bridges or weighted thrusts.
Hamstrings, go with some higher rep RDL’s. Something along this protocol is about the best advice I can give without seeing your log for the last few months/current pictures/form.[/quote]
No I am not having to make weight. Thanks for the advice I will give it a go. EDIT, the link to my log does not seem to work, but it is strength and conditioning training and it is on this website. Hopefully the higher volume work and mobility work will help.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Are you having to make weight? If not, I’d say up the calories a bit for 2-3 weeks, switch to a higher volume approach and say run a German Volume Training template doing squats, 10x10 with the same weigh 90 second rest.
Try that once a week, and have another day where you do some unilateral work (single leg squats or leg press) with some similar volume as well as some more direct glute/hamstring work. For your mobility work (which I hope you’re doing) add in glute bridges or weighted thrusts.
Hamstrings, go with some higher rep RDL’s. Something along this protocol is about the best advice I can give without seeing your log for the last few months/current pictures/form.[/quote]
May i add a wee bit to this?
moving to higher volume/lighter load right now for your squat may be just the thing,
it may just let you start doing something sufficiently distinct to have an adaptation response.
but the fix may also be faster and more specific than this.
Here’s a wee bit of theory about why.
The squat is a different move than anything else you’re doing. foot flexion for one is really different; the hip movement is getting down rather than back compared to the dead.
It may be that say if there’s a say one bone in your foot that’s a bit jammed and that jam affects the quality of how well your knee can track forward, then that restriction affects your hip etc, so that your body just doesn’t feel safe to let you go heavier, no matter how much work you put into the move.
this is where a movement coach can be really helpful for your performance. said coach can watch you move and show you a fast way to open up the jam or whatever might be going on - so that your performance can open up again.
take a look at the vid mid way through this post for a demo of this kind of impact of one wee joint on the system. And in the case of the feet in particular there are strong correlations between particular bones/joints in the feet and hip/flexor behaviour.
The example shows why a solution to your plateau may be very simple and particularly very fast.
if you’re interested, pm me where you are, and if there’s someone i can recommend in your area, happy to do so.
best
mc
Great information MC, I’ve just come to find that most people, can usually work around a plateau with nutrition, recovery, or volume. Since rowing is a non-impact sport, the risk of jams and other malodies effecting movement patterns is less then for other sports. While I agree that it’s always possible, and seeing a movement specialist can be an interesting, informative, and beneficial experience, I don’t think it’s always the first thing to try when coming to a plateau, maybe the 3rd or 4th (as nutrition, recovery, and volume are generally free or little cost) while seeing specialists generally aren’t covered by insurance and can at times be pricey. Either way those were some interesting reads.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Great information MC, I’ve just come to find that most people, can usually work around a plateau with nutrition, recovery, or volume. Since rowing is a non-impact sport, the risk of jams and other malodies effecting movement patterns is less then for other sports. [/quote]
^Don’t forget soreness. If I do any kind of long road work my lifts suffer big time, but thankfully rowing doesn’t have that sore/stiffness inducing quality.
To the guy with the stalled squat- it could just be that your squat needs more work than your other lifts. The legs can take quite a beating, especially legs used to a high volume of work. Don’t get ridiculous about it, but also don’t be afraid to hit the squats 2 or 3 days a week with decent weight and moderate volume.
Thanks guys that is some awesome advice, that is exactly why I ask questions on this site. I am thinking about trying some higher volume work on my legs and add some mobility work in. Maybe it just needs a bit extra volume and something different. I’ll get back in a few weeks and see which works.
Something I’ve found that has helped immensely has been hip mobility work. It’s helped me get more reach outside the boat while maintaining proper angles, helped my deadlift, squat, and clean as well due to the lack of tightness and ability to fire my hips properly. I’ll be putting together a hip mobility video to post up on my rowingillustrated blog soon (sometime next week). I started having the kids I coach do this and have seen noticeable improvement in their ability to rotate outside the boat without collapsing.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Something I’ve found that has helped immensely has been hip mobility work. It’s helped me get more reach outside the boat while maintaining proper angles, helped my deadlift, squat, and clean as well due to the lack of tightness and ability to fire my hips properly. I’ll be putting together a hip mobility video to post up on my rowingillustrated blog soon (sometime next week). I started having the kids I coach do this and have seen noticeable improvement in their ability to rotate outside the boat without collapsing.[/quote]
Awesome man, let me know when you do it because I will definitely be interested in learning how to do proper hip mobility work. Our coach has concentrated a lot on making sure people do not collapse just before the catch. I really do think it will help both my rowing and squat. I am finding the bottom portion of the squat the weakest and most uncomfortable, and although I want to increase the weight I do not want to lose depth which is what is currently happening when I try and up the weight.
Rowers who deadlift 300 and squat 250 (bw 100kg, 2.5BW squat, 3BW Deadlift)?
I’d like to see this - but would also happily stand corrected.
Video of Olaf Tufte (surely one of the strongest rowers around)
Deadlifting 190kg*8 - looks pretty heavy and it’s not dead-stopped. A long way off a 300kg Deadlift seemingly.
Anyone have any stats for olympic hwt rowers and lifts on squat, deadlift or powerclean?
I’ll ask around. I’ve had a few interactions with the US men’s team and occasionally run into them when I’m up north for races.
I’m aware of some bench stats (but that obviously has little to do with rowing).
One of the Searle brothers - could only bench 90kg
Steve Redgrave benched 125
Matt Pinsent surpassed him, which he was annoyed about, and benched 135
These numbers are obviously surprisingly low.
[quote]ros1816 wrote:
Rowers who deadlift 300 and squat 250 (bw 100kg, 2.5BW squat, 3BW Deadlift)?
I’d like to see this - but would also happily stand corrected.
I’m also very sceptical about those claims. A 100kg rower with a 550lb squat and 660lb deadlift? No way. These would be pretty competetive lifts for powerlifters at that bw. I’m assuming these lifts are done raw.(I can’t see these rowers “gearing” up). And that guy doing the deadlift with 190kg?, there’s no way in hell he could budge 300kg. Maybe that’s with the rest of his crew helping out!
I’m confident that no footage could be found of a rower using anywhere near these poundages.
Yeah Olaf Tufte couldn’t budge a 300kg dead. And he’s one of the absolute top rowers in the world. I think there’s a reason rowers don’t talk about weight room scores - it’s not just due to lack of interest but also because they’re not proud of their scores.
I think lack of interest is a strong factor though. I remember reading in his autobiography that Steve Redgrave, back in the 80s, after his first gold medal, decided not to do any weights at all for a few years. It didn’t seem to hurt his rowing career any.
[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
[quote]ros1816 wrote:
Rowers who deadlift 300 and squat 250 (bw 100kg, 2.5BW squat, 3BW Deadlift)?
I’d like to see this - but would also happily stand corrected.
I’m also very sceptical about those claims. A 100kg rower with a 550lb squat and 660lb deadlift? No way. These would be pretty competetive lifts for powerlifters at that bw. I’m assuming these lifts are done raw.(I can’t see these rowers “gearing” up). And that guy doing the deadlift with 190kg?, there’s no way in hell he could budge 300kg. Maybe that’s with the rest of his crew helping out!
I’m confident that no footage could be found of a rower using anywhere near these poundages.[/quote]
I’m sitting at 175 lbs currently and have maxed out at 545 for deadlift, and 485 squat. That’s roughly 80 kg deadlifting 247 kg for dl and 220 kg for squat. I’m a rower.