[quote]ros1816 wrote:
Yeah Olaf Tufte couldn’t budge a 300kg dead. And he’s one of the absolute top rowers in the world. I think there’s a reason rowers don’t talk about weight room scores - it’s not just due to lack of interest but also because they’re not proud of their scores.
I think lack of interest is a strong factor though. I remember reading in his autobiography that Steve Redgrave, back in the 80s, after his first gold medal, decided not to do any weights at all for a few years. It didn’t seem to hurt his rowing career any.[/quote]
I personally believe that a lot of rowing programs under-utilize lifting. Just like for the longest time no one understood steady state and low and behold the Russians dominated the international scene (60’s-80’s) by doing massive amounts of steady state when everyone else was doing a ton of AT work. There are a few stories of them rowing around the bend and coming back 2 hours later, no one knowing what they had done. It later came to be revealed that it was just lots of steady state. I feel as though sooner or later people are going to realize that lifting is paramount to greater levels of speed and you’ll start seeing the strength levels in the gym go up.
[quote]ros1816 wrote:
Those numbers are huge Liquid Mercury.
What are your figures for the other pieces of the puzzle:
Height
500m - 1.24 is this right?
2k - 6.30 ish - is this right?
Has your lifting helped your rowing?
How much UT2/Steady State work do you do a week?
Still no idea about weight room numbers for rowers? - what about the other guys you row with?[/quote]
Those times are right. Height is 5’9" (175 CM).
As far as UT2 work goes it varies with the season obviously. I haven’t been training as much this past year due to time constraints between work and coaching. When I was competing more often I was putting in around 10 hours or so a week of UT2 work. I may make one last hurrah of it and try and make a push towards the national team and get my times down in the 6:15 range. My 6:32 was with zero speed work (just lifting and UT2) so I definitely have plenty of room for improvement (also I wasn’t close to as strong as I am now)
I take a different approach to training then the other guys I row with. Due to my lack of height I focus on my strength to help bridge the natural disparity presented by height. I’m definitely stronger then all the guys I row with, but have known other guys in the elite levels that are Deadlifting close to 3X bw.
It would be mega-impressive if you could get down to 6.15 at your bw (surely you wouldn’t get down to 72ish and compete as a lightweight?)
Are you a lifter who does rowing on the side? Presumably you’re not training with the same volume an international would do, as well as doing 5-3-1 4 times a week.
Should all rowers be on 5-3-1?
Still no idea about weight room numbers for rowers? - what about the other guys you row with?
[quote]ros1816 wrote:
It would be mega-impressive if you could get down to 6.15 at your bw (surely you wouldn’t get down to 72ish and compete as a lightweight?)
Are you a lifter who does rowing on the side? Presumably you’re not training with the same volume an international would do, as well as doing 5-3-1 4 times a week.
Should all rowers be on 5-3-1?
Still no idea about weight room numbers for rowers? - what about the other guys you row with?
[/quote]
I’ll be competing lightweight. My 6:32 was as a lightweight.
I’m a rower and a lifter. I’ve been rowing for about a decade or so and lifting for as long. As I said I haven’t been training as much this year so I can devote a bit more time towards lifting then I normally would. 5/3/1 isn’t really for rowers (though western periodization isn’t bad at all) due to the emphasis on pressing movements as well. For weight purposes I’ll drop the pressing movements down significantly and lose muscle in my chest to be able to make weight as a lightweight.
[quote]ros1816 wrote:
You speak of Elite rowers Dling 3*Bw - is that Lightweight Elite so 210kg DL?
Isn’t a 5’9 Elite rower even at LWT unheard of?[/quote]
Mainly lightweight elite though I’ve known a few heavyweights who are in the 2x+ range. Their body’s just aren’t meant for deadlifting with all that height. There are a few guys on the national team under 6 ft for lightweight. Steve Tucker (one of the more prominent ltwts of the past decade) was 5’8".
I’m still trying to get my head around the achievment of having 245 dead, 220 squat, and a bench around 140, [That’s 1470 powerlifting total (RAW surely?) 1396lb total is elite for unequipped in ADAU federation!] whilst also having a 6.15 ergo (I know you don’t have this yet but it’s not just blind self-belief is it?].
You only need to go below 6.20 to have a shot at the national team as a LWT anyway.
I would love to know how low I could get my 2k after a year of training, off the back of a 500 squat and 660 dead - I’m a year or two away from hitting those numbers though [currently at 375 parallel squat, 500 dead after 17 months of proper training].
How much UT2 work would I have to do to get there?
Maybe
M Maintanence deadlift upper back/chins
T Erg 20km
W Erg 20km
T Maintanence Squat upper back/chins light pressing for structural balance
F Erg 20km
S Intervals/Speed Work on erg
S Day off
Would this get me a sub 6.00 2k??? (Hard to say obviously given individual differences in adaptation but based on strength level and volume of erg work is it possible? Is it unrealistic to expect to keep the squat and deadlift strength over the course of a year?)
My stats (6’9, 130kg bw, current 500m 1.21.5 with no conditioning whatsoever for a year, current 2k no idea)
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this - it would be like an experiment to see whether strength and a low volume of rowing/erging can yield results.
I too am having a hard time dealing with those stats. Are you telling me you are elite level at rowing and powerlifting?. Were your best lifts in the deadlift and squat done at your current 175lbs or were you carrying a bit more weight then. I have a best 2000m on the concept 2 of 6.40 a best squat of 440lb, bench 308lbs and a deadlift of 440lb (I don’t max out on the deadlift very often) but I weigh 215 and have a resting heart rate of 47. I thought I had a fairly good balance of strength and stamina for a recreational exerciser, but you blow me away. What’s your RHR and any footage of those lifts by the way?
Liquid Mercury - I don’t doubt your stats but maybe I’m a bit naieve and a bit of clarification is necessary.
I used to be an endurance guy - a very fit and very weak rower.
Now I’m a strength guy - I go to the gym and follow 5-3-1.
I would be fascinated to see if there was a way the two worlds could be united - I’m never going to be elite in either but I would like a 1400lb total AND a sub 6 ergo. Is this possible?
Nb when I was rowing 100-150km a week I had a RHR in the 40s. Now I havent done any conditioning for over a year and its in the 60s-70s
I’m 5’8" and 41. I don’t row any more because I developed osteo arthritis in my big toes! from the repetitive flexing on the foot rests (the doctor says I’ve got the toes of a 70 year old). So I had to sell my concept II, my pride and joy, a very sad day. Now I cycle for cardio. The bulk of my workouts on the rower consisted of intervals, I always found steady state rowing a bit boring. My favourite workouts were 20secs work 10 secs rest x8 (tabata protocol) and 40 secs work 20 secs rest x 15+ intervals. I can’t remember my best 500m. Don’t think I ever tested that.
When I did intervals it was once a week and the classic was 8*500m with 5 mins rest between each. Was pretty brutal and my best average for 8 was 1.28. I was also rowing 100-150km a week.
How many times a week did you do the intervals? and did you do any cardio (running, cycling etc)?
How many times a week did you lift and what were your scores on the big 3 around the time you achieved the 6.40 ergo?
I don’t think I could do 6.40 right now, given I have zero fitness. I don’t even know if I could do it after doing Tabata once a week - it’s only a 4 minute exercise session! - and another intervals session for 15 minutes (but maybe I’m someone who responds best to a high volume of training).
Have I got it right this was the extent of your rowing/conditioning training - a 4 minute interval workout, and a 15 minute interval workout?
I do not have an elite total (yet). Ros, my bench isn’t at 140 kilo. I’m closer to 125 kilo on bench. You misinterpreted my erg score as well. My aim is to bring it down to the 6:15 range which I think is doable considering my 6:32 with only lifting and only UT2 work. My strength has since increased significantly (though my weight is up from 165 to 175).
As I said Ros, I believe lifting to be under-utilized in rowing, I even write a blog on all this hoping that I can change that. I’ve seen a huge difference just in the kids I coach since we’ve started lifting more and heavier. When I came to the club we were lucky to put a boat to youth nationals on either the men or women’s side. This may not be all attributable to my increased lifting for them, but in the past 3 years we have sent 2 boats to youth nationals, this past year sending 3, and just recently received 4 boat invitations (2 8’s and 2 4’s men/women) to the HOCR. I truly do believe lifting is a huge benefit to rowing and can be maximized much more. I use a large part of my training time towards this.
Ros - as far as your specific training plan, who’s to say if you’d be sub 6 or not. I think the volume may be enough to get you there in time, and since you do have the height you’re not restricted as much as shorter rowers for leverage. Only way to know is to try it. I’d say you need to break the volume up over more days. To keep my lifting 3 times a week (while putting in serious erg time) I do a lot of morning sessions on the erg and evening sessions in the gym. I was having 6-8 erg sessions a week and 3 gym sessions.
Farmer - I’ll have video up in 2 weeks (when I get to my 3rd week in the 5/3/1 I can go for max’s if you’d like and get some video up). My RHR at the time of my best conditioning was 41.
Ros, I would do intervals 5 x a week. The tabata on my “off” days (tues & thur). This allowed me to get a good workout in in a very short time and the longer intervals after the weights (mon,wed,fri). I did at times, depending on shifts, cycle to work and back (16 miles a day) but I never really counted this as exercise. My pb’s at the time were squat 418lbs, the bench press was set right around then (I don’t bp anymore. I do weighted dips and my shoulders feel so much better for it) and I wasn’t deadlifting during that period as I tend to squat or deadlift in cycles.
Liquid Mercury-That rhr is impressive. I look forward to your videos. There’s nothing quite like watching clips of lighter people outlifting you to inspire you and give yourself a kick up the arse.
M Weights then 15 minutes of intervals
T Tabata - 1 round
W Weights then 15 minutes of intervals
T Tabata - 1 round
F Weights then 15 minutes of intervals
S off
S off
Have I got this right? Sorry to be a bore about this.
Ros, that looks like something the US and other countries were doing in the 50’s before everyone realized that UT2 was paramount to any training program.
Yes Ros that’s pretty much how I’ve trained over the last 15 years. Bear in mind that I have never trained to be a rower and endurance is not really my “thing”. My main goal has always been to be strong with a decent level of fitness. I just happened to choose rowing but now it’s cycling. If your’e looking for a training template to specifically improve your rowing, you’d probably be better off following Liquid Mercury’s advice as he is a lot more experienced in that field than I am. Saying that if you take into account the time I spent doing intervals verses the countless hours you’d spend doing steady state rowing, I think my way probably works out a more time efficient way for someone who doesn’t have several hours to train each day.
[quote]FarmerBrett wrote:
Saying that if you take into account the time I spent doing intervals verses the countless hours you’d spend doing steady state rowing, I think my way probably works out a more time efficient way for someone who doesn’t have several hours to train each day.[/quote]
The reason for the steady state work is so you don’t limit yourself. Rowers are limited by their aerobic base. Since his goal is to be the fastest rower he can be, not doing UT2 work limits this. Plenty of empirical and statistical evidence to support this. If interested go read Volker Nolte for the actual statistical analysis, or take the word of hundreds of coaches over the past 4 decades.
If you want to get to a base-line level of health, then intervals are definitely a quick and easy way to get it done. If you want to be a competitive rower, you need the UT2 work or you’ll just plateau out and never get faster. Think about it in terms of lifting training to get stronger by doing 1RM or following a western or conjugated periodization.
M Maintanence deadlift upper back/chins
T Erg 20km
W Erg 20km
T Maintanence Squat upper back/chins light pressing for structural balance
F Erg 20km
S Intervals/Speed Work on erg (possibly done after weights)
S Day off
This is what I would do after improving my strength and AFTER following a similar training plan to Farmer Brett’s:
M Weights then 15 minutes of intervals
T Tabata - 1 round
W Weights then 15 minutes of intervals
T Tabata - 1 round
F Weights then 15 minutes of intervals
S off
S off
The intervals-based plan would net me vastly inferior gains than the UT2 plan but at least I would get a measure of where things can potentially go.
I still think Brett’s time of 6.40 is really very impressive given is height (5’8) and the lack of training volume.
Dropping out the UT2 would be a bad way to go. Your aerobic base would start to degrade after 2-3 weeks or so. Even during sprint season and when I’m trying to peak I may go max of 2 AT workouts a week, 1 of AN.