Is government the problem?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
But, please, let’s look for some intellectual honesty here-- The position that HH and others keep dancing around is that they are entitled to more money, NOT abolish government schools, the latter BEING THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
[/quote]
Wow! Just…wow…
As a teacher, I do hereby give you an ‘F’ for reading comprehension.
This is a one reason I am glad I teach maths. Points can’t be debated when the student DOESN’T KNOW HOW TO READ.
[/quote]
No, I can read just fine. I guess I’m just having trouble making out the words through your blinding hypocrisy.
[quote]tme wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]tme wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Also, I know a few teachers. None of them are even remotely worried about putting a roof on their house or replacing a road weary car. They are more concerned with tax shelters, which neighborhood they are going to upgrade to, and what features they would like on their next new car.[/quote]
My wife’s a teacher, and we either need to move to whatever district these figments of your imagination teach, or you’re a fucking liar.
I’m going with B.
[/quote]
Without thinking much, I’m able to recall about several teachers in NJ that are either family or friends, and NONE make less than 50k per year.
Most of those are in the 60-70’s with the accompanying cadillac bene’s. There’s not much disparity between PA/MD/DE/NY/NJ/CT. Skyzyyzyks claim is not in the least bit outrageous.
A two income teacher family can easily gross a six-figure income with a hefty pension plan.
Edit:
NJ: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary
PA: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Pennsylvania-teacher-salary [/quote]
My wife has been teaching for about 15 years, has a masters, and makes about 60k. No that’s not a bad living, but we aren’t getting rich from it either. We use my insurance because her plan sucks. I don’t understand why so many people begrudge teachers - who are mostly well educated and work in a fairly high stress environment - a fair wage. We aren’t looking to upgrade to a bigger house, our minivan has 130k on it and we hope to get 200k before we have to replace it. Our only tax shelters are our IRA accounts. If she teaches for another 10 years we might be able to retire without having to work as Walmart greaters, but we aren’t going to be buying vacation homes and traveling the world either.
I know, I know.. “they only work half the year!” That’s bullshit. Yeah my wife gets roughly two months off in the summer, but she still works more hours over the course of the year than I do. She sits at the kitchen table until midnight several nights a week grading, and spends lot of time on weekends prepping and planning. There is always training in June after school is out, and teachers report a week early for training and classroom setup in August.
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Your tough lot in life does not make me a liar. It makes you an asshole though when you call someone a liar before doing a little research.
Look up Bethel Park, Upper Saint Clair, Peters Township, and a few of the other better paying districts in my region, ya fuckwad.(you probably should have prior to her becoming a teacher anyways.)
Aside from when to or not to shoot your stupid mouth off, maybe you should also take a course in how to manage money, because if you can’t do O.K. on 60K a year plus yours, you don’t deserve to do well you fucking loser.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]tme wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]tme wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Also, I know a few teachers. None of them are even remotely worried about putting a roof on their house or replacing a road weary car. They are more concerned with tax shelters, which neighborhood they are going to upgrade to, and what features they would like on their next new car.[/quote]
My wife’s a teacher, and we either need to move to whatever district these figments of your imagination teach, or you’re a fucking liar.
I’m going with B.
[/quote]
Without thinking much, I’m able to recall about several teachers in NJ that are either family or friends, and NONE make less than 50k per year.
Most of those are in the 60-70’s with the accompanying cadillac bene’s. There’s not much disparity between PA/MD/DE/NY/NJ/CT. Skyzyyzyks claim is not in the least bit outrageous.
A two income teacher family can easily gross a six-figure income with a hefty pension plan.
Edit:
NJ: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary
PA: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Pennsylvania-teacher-salary [/quote]
My wife has been teaching for about 15 years, has a masters, and makes about 60k. No that’s not a bad living, but we aren’t getting rich from it either. We use my insurance because her plan sucks. I don’t understand why so many people begrudge teachers - who are mostly well educated and work in a fairly high stress environment - a fair wage. We aren’t looking to upgrade to a bigger house, our minivan has 130k on it and we hope to get 200k before we have to replace it. Our only tax shelters are our IRA accounts. If she teaches for another 10 years we might be able to retire without having to work as Walmart greaters, but we aren’t going to be buying vacation homes and traveling the world either.
I know, I know.. “they only work half the year!” That’s bullshit. Yeah my wife gets roughly two months off in the summer, but she still works more hours over the course of the year than I do. She sits at the kitchen table until midnight several nights a week grading, and spends lot of time on weekends prepping and planning. There is always training in June after school is out, and teachers report a week early for training and classroom setup in August.
[/quote]
Your tough lot in life does not make me a liar. It makes you an asshole though when you call someone a liar before doing a little research.
Look up Bethel Park, Upper Saint Clair, Peters Township, and a few of the other better paying districts in my region, ya fuckwad.(you probably should have prior to her becoming a teacher anyways.)
Aside from when to or not to shoot your stupid mouth off, maybe you should also take a course in how to manage money, because if you can’t do O.K. on 60K a year plus yours, you don’t deserve to do well you fucking loser.
[/quote]
Plus, Wyoming is a pretty cheap place to live relative to the northeast!
HH, Gambit, Orion – Here’s a clue: People get what you’re saying.
The thing is, no reasonable people are buying into your pity party.
Government = big blood suckers
Teachers Union = blood suckers “defending” themselves from the bigger blood suckers
The thing is, everyone else fucking hates all blood suckers.
Your position amounts to “Boo hoo! But we’re the good bloodsuckers”.
Fucking parasites, both. Ticks and leaches. Your teachers unions and the “evil government monopoly” can argue over which is which. Everyone else rightfully lumps you both together as bloodsuckers.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Fucking parasites, both. Ticks and leaches. Your teachers unions and the “evil government monopoly” can argue over which is which. Everyone else rightfully lumps you both together as bloodsuckers.[/quote]
Yeah that is because “everybody” thinks that its bad, bad people whereas it is a bad, bad system with perfectly ordinary people.
Mencken wrote that “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard”.
This idea that teachers, doctors or whoever should somehow be above human pettiness and self interest and to get angry if they arent is childish and immature.
You can throw a tantrum as long as you want and even “throw the bums out” and yet those coming after them would just fill the social niche you have created. If you want to get rid of mosquitos drain the swamp, whining about the character of insects that just follow their nature is an exercise in futility.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Fucking parasites, both. Ticks and leaches. Your teachers unions and the “evil government monopoly” can argue over which is which. Everyone else rightfully lumps you both together as bloodsuckers.[/quote]
Yeah that is because “everybody” thinks that its bad, bad people whereas it is a bad, bad system with perfectly ordinary people.
Mencken wrote that “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard”.
This idea that teachers, doctors or whoever should somehow be above human pettiness and self interest and to get angry if they arent is childish and immature.
You can throw a tantrum as long as you want and even “throw the bums out” and yet those coming after them would just fill the social niche you have created. If you want to get rid of mosquitos drain the swamp, whining about the character of insects that just follow their nature is an exercise in futility.
[/quote]
Spot on, as usual.
Isn’t it fascinating how things like wars, economic catastrophes, and the like keep happening and yet humanity never questions its premises?
They change the players but never the basic rules of the game.
Until and unless human beings accept as cast in stone: All relationships between human beings must be voluntary on ALL sides. Anyone violating this fundamental rule is a criminal and is dealt with as such.
Of course, this would necessitate eliminating all taxes so it won’t happen very soon. LOL!
Check drudgereport, she fired them. Judging by the results these teachers weren’t getting something had to give. Unfortunately teachers get blamed for what is ultimately the parents failure.
Yep, they salted the leeches; burned the ticks; and DDT’d the swamp skeeters
(NECN: Latoyia Edwards, Central Falls, RI) - The decision stands: 93 teachers, administrators and assistants will be fired at Central Falls High School in Rhode Island. The mass firings have caught the nation’s attention. Could this happen at other struggling schools in New England and beyond.
The rally to keep their jobs was not enough, every teacher and guidance counselor at Central Falls High School in Rhode Island will be fired in June because their students chronically underperform and 52 percent don’t graduate.
Kenneth Wong chairs the education department at Brown University. He says the teacher firings in Central Falls should be a warning to all school districts.
The U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan agrees. Secretary Duncan praised the Central Falls Board of Education for choosing to let go of all the troubled high school’s teachers-- in favor of attracting fresh talent. Under federal rules only 50 percent of the current teachers can be re-hired
Professor Wong says Chicago and Philadelphia have fired and replaced teachers at failing schools. He says New York City and Chicago are rapidly transforming poor public schools into charter schools, and Baltimore and Philadelphia are allowing nonprofit groups to manage underperforming learning centers.
Looks like it’s not the first time and also a trend. I genuine feel for any of the fired teachers who actually wanted to give a little more to make a difference but were not able to because of the unions unwillingness to budge.
There was a quote I heard on the radio which, well, speaks for itself. I’ll have to paraphrase it though, but it’s fairly accurate. Imagine a nearly tearful voice that it is making it all sound rather unfair:
“I’ve been teaching at this school for 20 years. It was just starting to look like things were going to begin turning around. I’m just sorry that I won’t be here to see that turnaround.”
Um, NOW there is going to be a turnaround, but there wasn’t one coming until this firing. The union saw to that, in refusing to do the relatively modest amount of extra work that was asked for.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]tme wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Also, I know a few teachers. None of them are even remotely worried about putting a roof on their house or replacing a road weary car. They are more concerned with tax shelters, which neighborhood they are going to upgrade to, and what features they would like on their next new car.[/quote]
My wife’s a teacher, and we either need to move to whatever district these figments of your imagination teach, or you’re a fucking liar.
I’m going with B.
[/quote]
Without thinking much, I’m able to recall about several teachers in NJ that are either family or friends, and NONE make less than 50k per year.
Most of those are in the 60-70’s with the accompanying cadillac bene’s. There’s not much disparity between PA/MD/DE/NY/NJ/CT. Skyzyyzyks claim is not in the least bit outrageous.
A two income teacher family can easily gross a six-figure income with a hefty pension plan.
Edit:
NJ: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary
PA: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Pennsylvania-teacher-salary [/quote]
Not to jump on the HH bandwagon… How far do you think low 6 figures goes in NJ. My wife is a 3rd year teacher who makes 42,000 a year and has to pay for her benefits. I am a law enforcement officer and I made over 90,000 with overtime this year. We use my benefits and defer hers because mine are free for the time being. Due to the cost of real estate in this state(we bought pre bubble burst) even after the bubble burst, you can not touch a liveable home for under 240,000. We paid 290,000 for our house(1000 sq ft 3 bed 1 br on a 50x100 lot), throw in 2 car payments, the ridiculous cost of auto insurance in this state, utilities, homeowners insurance, flood insurance ridiculous property taxes, child care for my 2 1/2 year old and just general cost of living and we have just enough to scrimp into a savings account. Rent for a decent apartment in a decent town around here goes between 1300-1500 hundred.
I think the blame needs to be laid on the politicians and administrators not the rank and file employees. 3 superintendents, 12 principals and 19 vice principals in a a 4 school district is what the culprit is. Not the teacher with 75,000 in student loans. In this state it’s hard to get a teaching job with out dual certs in special ed and general ed plus specialization in a certain subject.
My wife has 6+ years of school, school loans of around 400 a month for the next 5 years(not to include the 400 we have paid for the last 4 years) then 200 a month for the next 5 after that. What would be a fair rate to pay my wife? [/quote]
Whatever according to her ability.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]snipeout wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]tme wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Also, I know a few teachers. None of them are even remotely worried about putting a roof on their house or replacing a road weary car. They are more concerned with tax shelters, which neighborhood they are going to upgrade to, and what features they would like on their next new car.[/quote]
My wife’s a teacher, and we either need to move to whatever district these figments of your imagination teach, or you’re a fucking liar.
I’m going with B.
[/quote]
Without thinking much, I’m able to recall about several teachers in NJ that are either family or friends, and NONE make less than 50k per year.
Most of those are in the 60-70’s with the accompanying cadillac bene’s. There’s not much disparity between PA/MD/DE/NY/NJ/CT. Skyzyyzyks claim is not in the least bit outrageous.
A two income teacher family can easily gross a six-figure income with a hefty pension plan.
Edit:
NJ: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary
PA: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Pennsylvania-teacher-salary [/quote]
Not to jump on the HH bandwagon… How far do you think low 6 figures goes in NJ. My wife is a 3rd year teacher who makes 42,000 a year and has to pay for her benefits. I am a law enforcement officer and I made over 90,000 with overtime this year. We use my benefits and defer hers because mine are free for the time being. Due to the cost of real estate in this state(we bought pre bubble burst) even after the bubble burst, you can not touch a liveable home for under 240,000. We paid 290,000 for our house(1000 sq ft 3 bed 1 br on a 50x100 lot), throw in 2 car payments, the ridiculous cost of auto insurance in this state, utilities, homeowners insurance, flood insurance ridiculous property taxes, child care for my 2 1/2 year old and just general cost of living and we have just enough to scrimp into a savings account. Rent for a decent apartment in a decent town around here goes between 1300-1500 hundred.
I think the blame needs to be laid on the politicians and administrators not the rank and file employees. 3 superintendents, 12 principals and 19 vice principals in a a 4 school district is what the culprit is. Not the teacher with 75,000 in student loans. In this state it’s hard to get a teaching job with out dual certs in special ed and general ed plus specialization in a certain subject.
My wife has 6+ years of school, school loans of around 400 a month for the next 5 years(not to include the 400 we have paid for the last 4 years) then 200 a month for the next 5 after that. What would be a fair rate to pay my wife? [/quote]
Whatever according to her ability.[/quote]
According to the state all you need is your certificate and over a 143 on the praxis 2 exam. What else shall we set the standard to? Should a teacher have to follow the student home and ensure that the parents help them with all school projects and homework? At what point do the parents and students assume responsibilities for their failures?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Yep, they salted the leeches; burned the ticks; and DDT’d the swamp skeeters
(NECN: Latoyia Edwards, Central Falls, RI) - The decision stands: 93 teachers, administrators and assistants will be fired at Central Falls High School in Rhode Island. The mass firings have caught the nation’s attention. Could this happen at other struggling schools in New England and beyond.
The rally to keep their jobs was not enough, every teacher and guidance counselor at Central Falls High School in Rhode Island will be fired in June because their students chronically underperform and 52 percent don’t graduate.
Kenneth Wong chairs the education department at Brown University. He says the teacher firings in Central Falls should be a warning to all school districts.
The U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan agrees. Secretary Duncan praised the Central Falls Board of Education for choosing to let go of all the troubled high school’s teachers-- in favor of attracting fresh talent. Under federal rules only 50 percent of the current teachers can be re-hired
Professor Wong says Chicago and Philadelphia have fired and replaced teachers at failing schools. He says New York City and Chicago are rapidly transforming poor public schools into charter schools, and Baltimore and Philadelphia are allowing nonprofit groups to manage underperforming learning centers.
Looks like it’s not the first time and also a trend. I genuine feel for any of the fired teachers who actually wanted to give a little more to make a difference but were not able to because of the unions unwillingness to budge.[/quote]
Lets put aside your hatred for teachers unions, pay, and benefits for a minute. At what point do you think the parents should be held responsible for the students failures? You can’t make a student or parent do the work. You present the material, clarify anything not understood then assign the work based on the lesson. If these underperforming students were not doing assignments and not willing to learn how can you make them learn?
You spend a 1000 hours or so with the kids over a year, with involved expenditure of about $10,000, and they don’t learn anything… Not your fault!
It’s obviously someone else’s fault!
And for sure, the idea that, as what you’ve been doing hasn’t been working, you ought to add 25 minutes to your workday and do some one-on-one tutoring for not much extra pay is just totally out of the question!
Like the Valkyrie!
Thanks! 
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.
I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.
Jesus…
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
You spend a 1000 hours or so with the kids over a year, with involved expenditure of about $10,000, and they don’t learn anything… Not your fault!
It’s obviously someone else’s fault!
And for sure, the idea that, as what you’ve been doing hasn’t been working, you ought to add 25 minutes to your workday and do some one-on-one tutoring for not much extra pay is just totally out of the question![/quote]
Lets be a little more objective here Bill. In high school we switch classes, a teacher gets at most 45 minutes a day, 5 days a week with the student. Over a 26 week school year Thats less than 100 hours a year. Students don’t even spend 1000 hours in school over the course of a school year much less one subject.
I am only asking a simple question. At what point do the parents and students become responsible for their failures. What’s funny is a bunch of conservative minded people laying blame at someone elses feet other than the person who put themselves in the situation. By this line of thinking why not fire all cops and firefighters because they could not stop the crime or fire before it happened.
Did you all not hear that the distric could hire back up to 50% of the teachers fired? This means they get to keep the good teachers and get rid of the trash.
This school had a 51% graduation rate. When are we going to start thinking that not everyone can attain a High School education. We need to set the bar higher instead of dumbing down all the curiculum so stupid people can pass.
HH how much time do you spend administering discipline every day? The 45 minutes of class is really only 30 because the kids who dont care wont keep their mouths shut.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
You spend a 1000 hours or so with the kids over a year, with involved expenditure of about $10,000, and they don’t learn anything… Not your fault!
It’s obviously someone else’s fault!
And for sure, the idea that, as what you’ve been doing hasn’t been working, you ought to add 25 minutes to your workday and do some one-on-one tutoring for not much extra pay is just totally out of the question![/quote]
Lets be a little more objective here Bill. In high school we switch classes, a teacher gets at most 45 minutes a day, 5 days a week with the student. Over a 26 week school year Thats less than 100 hours a year. Students don’t even spend 1000 hours in school over the course of a school year much less one subject.
[/quote]
Why are you re-interpreting what I wrote to supposedly be referring to one single teacher and one single subject? I am referring to the collective failure across the entire school day and year. And the entire topic was not some one single teacher at that RI school being asked to add 25 minutes to his or her workday and refusing to do so, but all the teachers.
If a student is “taught” for 6 hours per day and we multiply this by the number of days in the school year, the number is not vastly different from 1000 and any difference does not change the point I was making in the slightest.
On your question: If quite a few students do very well with the teaching then it’s quite arguable that the ones that do quite badly have themselves to blame, with the parents being possible contributors to that.
When no one is doing well, yet somehow in the same sort of situation all the time when the SAME students wind up in a charter school they do well, then for sure you can blame the teachers.
This also could be fairly concluded when, speaking statistically, demographically similar students do very well in certain other schools but not in the school in question.
There are a lot of crappy teachers in government schools. There are also many good ones. Are actually trying to deny that there are a lot of crappy ones that the unions make it about impossible to get rid of?