RI Superintendent to Fire All Teachers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Orion and HH are hitting the nail on the head. For some reason others on this thread ignore their common sense posts.

I’m bowing out. I don’t think this is a debate so much as it is people looking for one group to demonize rather than a way forward.

[/quote]

So, then, you agree with them that strengthening a union that further enables the ‘monopoly’ that they are supposedly fighting for the express purpose of demanding ever increasing wages and benefits to themselves is the best way to fight/beat said monopoly and improve a failing government educational system?[/quote]

No, I’m saying that this post, right here, is a misunderstanding or purposeful misrepresentation of their argument. I don’t believe you intend to try to understand the position any further or interact with their actual position, so I see no reason to continue posting.

They have both been quite clear. If you chose to build strawmen or are incapable of understanding what they are saying, then there really isn’t a point, is there?

222

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Orion and HH are hitting the nail on the head. For some reason others on this thread ignore their common sense posts.

I’m bowing out. I don’t think this is a debate so much as it is people looking for one group to demonize rather than a way forward.

[/quote]

So, then, you agree with them that strengthening a union that further enables the ‘monopoly’ that they are supposedly fighting for the express purpose of demanding ever increasing wages and benefits to themselves is the best way to fight/beat said monopoly and improve a failing government educational system?[/quote]

No, I’m saying that this post, right here, is a misunderstanding or purposeful misrepresentation of their argument. I don’t believe you intend to try to understand the position any further or interact with their actual position, so I see no reason to continue posting.

They have both been quite clear. If you chose to build strawmen or are incapable of understanding what they are saying, then there really isn’t a point, is there?
[/quote]

They have been quite clear, I agree with that statement.

What fascinates (disturbs?) me is that anyone defending that position can’t see it as having a aura of entitlement.

Don’t cry about “fighting” the government monopoly or “fighting” the system – that’s not what’s happening. The truth is that the teachers union is, by virtue of its existence, only perpetuating itself. The unions CONSISTENTLY fight ANY alternatives. THAT is not virtuous. THAT is not helping to fix anything. THAT is mercenary and self-serving at best.

Let’s get back to the original post: R.I. school district is failing. Super needs more effort from teachers (amongst other things). If these teachers, many of which are making 70k a year (is THAT not a fair salary?), were making 200k, would that have made a difference in this district’s performance?

The super asked for more from its employees-- something that happens EVERY DAY in almost EVERY JOB. The union said “no”. In MY world, my boss asks me for MORE. I oblige. I succeed THEN I get paid more for my extra effort. See how that works? DO the job asked, THEN get rewarded.

223

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Orion and HH are hitting the nail on the head. For some reason others on this thread ignore their common sense posts.

I’m bowing out. I don’t think this is a debate so much as it is people looking for one group to demonize rather than a way forward.

[/quote]

So, then, you agree with them that strengthening a union that further enables the ‘monopoly’ that they are supposedly fighting for the express purpose of demanding ever increasing wages and benefits to themselves is the best way to fight/beat said monopoly and improve a failing government educational system?[/quote]

No, I’m saying that this post, right here, is a misunderstanding or purposeful misrepresentation of their argument. I don’t believe you intend to try to understand the position any further or interact with their actual position, so I see no reason to continue posting.

They have both been quite clear. If you chose to build strawmen or are incapable of understanding what they are saying, then there really isn’t a point, is there?
[/quote]

They have been quite clear, I agree with that statement.

What fascinates (disturbs?) me is that anyone defending that position can’t see it as having a aura of entitlement.

Don’t cry about “fighting” the government monopoly or “fighting” the system – that’s not what’s happening. The truth is that the teachers union is, by virtue of its existence, only perpetuating itself. The unions CONSISTENTLY fight ANY alternatives. THAT is not virtuous. THAT is not helping to fix anything. THAT is mercenary and self-serving at best.

Let’s get back to the original post: R.I. school district is failing. Super needs more effort from teachers (amongst other things). If these teachers, many of which are making 70k a year (is THAT not a fair salary?), were making 200k, would that have made a difference in this district’s performance?

The super asked for more from its employees-- something that happens EVERY DAY in almost EVERY JOB. The union said “no”. In MY world, my boss asks me for MORE. I oblige. I succeed THEN I get paid more for my extra effort. See how that works? DO the job asked, THEN get rewarded.[/quote]
If a vast majority of schools will always be taxpayer funded where will these performance based bonuses come from. In NJ it is illegal to receive any performance based bonus in a government job.

224

[quote]snipeout wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Orion and HH are hitting the nail on the head. For some reason others on this thread ignore their common sense posts.

I’m bowing out. I don’t think this is a debate so much as it is people looking for one group to demonize rather than a way forward.

[/quote]

So, then, you agree with them that strengthening a union that further enables the ‘monopoly’ that they are supposedly fighting for the express purpose of demanding ever increasing wages and benefits to themselves is the best way to fight/beat said monopoly and improve a failing government educational system?[/quote]

No, I’m saying that this post, right here, is a misunderstanding or purposeful misrepresentation of their argument. I don’t believe you intend to try to understand the position any further or interact with their actual position, so I see no reason to continue posting.

They have both been quite clear. If you chose to build strawmen or are incapable of understanding what they are saying, then there really isn’t a point, is there?
[/quote]

They have been quite clear, I agree with that statement.

What fascinates (disturbs?) me is that anyone defending that position can’t see it as having a aura of entitlement.

Don’t cry about “fighting” the government monopoly or “fighting” the system – that’s not what’s happening. The truth is that the teachers union is, by virtue of its existence, only perpetuating itself. The unions CONSISTENTLY fight ANY alternatives. THAT is not virtuous. THAT is not helping to fix anything. THAT is mercenary and self-serving at best.

Let’s get back to the original post: R.I. school district is failing. Super needs more effort from teachers (amongst other things). If these teachers, many of which are making 70k a year (is THAT not a fair salary?), were making 200k, would that have made a difference in this district’s performance?

The super asked for more from its employees-- something that happens EVERY DAY in almost EVERY JOB. The union said “no”. In MY world, my boss asks me for MORE. I oblige. I succeed THEN I get paid more for my extra effort. See how that works? DO the job asked, THEN get rewarded.[/quote]
If a vast majority of schools will always be taxpayer funded where will these performance based bonuses come from. In NJ it is illegal to receive any performance based bonus in a government job.
[/quote]

You never replied to what my ‘fair salary’ would be in NJ based on my experience, education, and student loan debt.

It’s illegal? Now, who would EVER lobby for that law?

EDIT: I posted this before your last post showed up…

225

Teacher’s Union Endorses Bonus Plan Not Based on Performance

[i]The nationâ??s largest teachersâ?? union today took a step toward ending its resistance towards basing teachersâ?? pay solely on seniority. However, the union stopped short of accepting a proposal to base teachersâ?? salaries on their studentsâ?? test performance.

…

Argument Against Performance Pay During hours of emotional debate, some teachers bitterly opposed the changes, arguing it will be the beginning of the end for a pay-for-seniority policy that dates back to the 1920s, the earliest years of the public education system. The opponents argued bonuses based on student performance or a bossâ?? judgment are devisive and unfair to teachers with the most-troubled students.

…

â??Who will want to teach the poor students? the students who donâ??t speak English as well?â?? said Barbara Kerr, a member of the California Teachers Association. â??This makes us vulnerable to the growing attacks by districts, school boards and our enemies.â??

<< I actually agree with that statement. SD >>

…

Some teachers believe that teachers cannot argue for higher salaries without basing their proposals on student performance. Higher salaries, some argue, are the only way to keep talented teachers from being lured away by other, more lucrative, professions. â??If we donâ??t do this, our skilled people, who have been trained through college, are going to be lost to other jobs,â?? teacher John Grossman told ABCNEWS.

226

All I ask from any of you is to show me just one example of where the Teacher’s Union has done anything to remotely attempt break the oppressive “government monopoly” in public education.

227

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

(And to Bill: I have answered your question many times. Unions and monopoly schools are both sides of the same coin. And if you think unions will give up any power while monopoly schools are still in place means that you are delusional.)
[/quote]

You have “answered” my questions in the sense that you typed out words. Nowhere yet have you acknowledged that the teachers’ unions fight to MAINTAIN government monopoly.

As for your pretense that you think I have expressed an expectation that the unions will give up any power, the person that is delusional is you if you think a single thing I have written has been even remotely close to that.

228

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

(And to Bill: I have answered your question many times. Unions and monopoly schools are both sides of the same coin. And if you think unions will give up any power while monopoly schools are still in place means that you are delusional.)
[/quote]

You have “answered” my questions in the sense that you typed out words. Nowhere yet have you acknowledged that the teachers’ unions fight to MAINTAIN government monopoly.

As for your pretense that you think I have expressed an expectation that the unions will give up any power, the person that is delusional is you if you think a single thing I have written has been even remotely close to that.[/quote]

Why would one side of the same coin try to destroy the other side?

Used to think you’re pretty sharp but…damn…how many times must I say differently (so hopefully you’ll fucking get it) the same thing?

Are you intentionally being this stupid, just to troll me?

The pic, btw, is how most of you guys want teachers to live. Nope.

229

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Whatever the going rate is for someone in your line of work.[/quote]

And how is that determined?

Yep. And I can guarantee I’m not going to get one. Further, if I could get one, it would have been because I went way above and beyond the minimum requirements for me to complete my job.

Stayed late? I worked 74 hours last week (slow week). I billed 40 of that. My pay remains the same.

Besides, not all jobs fall into a “punch in/punch out”. My success is determined by completing a task or project to the satisfaction of my customer (sound familiar?) in a given timeframe. I have a begin date and an end date. My “work hours” limit is determined by the scope of a project. It’s not like being a bank teller or postal clerk or sch… nevermind.

Actually, no I can’t as it’s my company policy not to award bonuses. I am rewarded by retaining my employment with the company as there is no concept of ‘tenure’ in private sector consulting.

No. See above.

I design, write, and implement the software that keeps your electric (and gas/water/sewer) on in an outage or disaster. You know, that thing that provides light to your schools? And in your case in New Jersey specifically, I KNOW that it’s my software.

OK, and on that same question, how did we ‘mold the people who are the future of society’ before government schools? How are my children getting ‘molded’ as they do not attend a government school and are being taught by non-union teachers who are regular middle-class people living in the same neighborhood as me?

And, for the record, I used to contract with a government agency at about 40% below market salary thanks to union collective bargaining. My insurance is cheaper now as well. How did they help me again?

230

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Used to think you’re pretty sharp but…damn…how many times must I say differently (so hopefully you’ll fucking get it) the same thing?

Are you intentionally being this stupid, just to troll me?

[/quote]

Hey Gambit – is this the shining example of “polite discourse” you’re looking for in the thread?

231

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Whatever the going rate is for someone in your line of work.[/quote]

And how is that determined?

Yep. And I can guarantee I’m not going to get one. Further, if I could get one, it would have been because I went way above and beyond the minimum requirements for me to complete my job.

Stayed late? I worked 74 hours last week (slow week). I billed 40 of that. My pay remains the same.

Besides, not all jobs fall into a “punch in/punch out”. My success is determined by completing a task or project to the satisfaction of my customer (sound familiar?) in a given timeframe. I have a begin date and an end date. My “work hours” limit is determined by the scope of a project. It’s not like being a bank teller or postal clerk or sch… nevermind.

Actually, no I can’t as it’s my company policy not to award bonuses. I am rewarded by retaining my employment with the company as there is no concept of ‘tenure’ in private sector consulting.

No. See above.

I design, write, and implement the software that keeps your electric (and gas/water/sewer) on in an outage or disaster. You know, that thing that provides light to your schools? And in your case in New Jersey specifically, I KNOW that it’s my software.

OK, and on that same question, how did we ‘mold the people who are the future of society’ before government schools? How are my children getting ‘molded’ as they do not attend a government school and are being taught by non-union teachers who are regular middle-class people living in the same neighborhood as me?

And, for the record, I used to contract with a government agency at about 40% below market salary thanks to union collective bargaining. My insurance is cheaper now as well. How did they help me again?

[/quote]
This is turning in to a pissing contest really. If you don’t like your company leave and find a more competetive one. Teachers have 3 choices, unemployment, public government schools or private schools that don’t pay as much.

The point is, you are demonizing the teachers for trying to make money yet you complain about your long hours and performance driven salary. You went to college right? When you decided what you wanted to do did the pay and work you would be doing not influence your choice?

One of the stupidest statements I heard came from a sheriffs lieutenant after I got out of the military and started my LEO job search. When I asked about how much overtime was available as a new officer because of the low starting pay(29,500 in 2003) she said “If you re taking this job for the money you are taking it for the wrong reasons”. Now granted, I wanted to make a difference, but I still had bills to pay and a future to establish.

How many people would still be doctors if they would only make 150,000 after 10 years yet still carry an enormous amount of college debt. If you are going to bring up the tax dollar issue check how much of your taxes go to medicare and your state taxes go to whatever state plan your state has. In NJ medicaid covers a shit ton of people, medicaid is funded by my tax dollars. Doctors are being paid by medicaid and medicare. By your logic we should limit what doctors make also since a large portion of their pay is paid by tax dollars.

232

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

(And to Bill: I have answered your question many times. Unions and monopoly schools are both sides of the same coin. And if you think unions will give up any power while monopoly schools are still in place means that you are delusional.)
[/quote]

You have “answered” my questions in the sense that you typed out words. Nowhere yet have you acknowledged that the teachers’ unions fight to MAINTAIN government monopoly.

As for your pretense that you think I have expressed an expectation that the unions will give up any power, the person that is delusional is you if you think a single thing I have written has been even remotely close to that.[/quote]

Why would one side of the same coin try to destroy the other side?

Used to think you’re pretty sharp but…damn…how many times must I say differently (so hopefully you’ll fucking get it) the same thing?

Are you intentionally being this stupid, just to troll me?

The pic, btw, is how most of you guys want teachers to live. Nope.
[/quote]

You’re being deliberately obtuse for the sake of trolling. I don’t think you’re actually so stupid as to think others are saying what you put in their mouths, and I don’t think you’re so stupid as to not grasp the points being made.

I do expect though that you’re so stubborn that you simply refuse to acknowledge points that you’ve been specifically asked that you know are true, but which wreck the stance you’ve taken.

HH trolling, who’da thunk.

So, what else is new…

233

[quote]snipeout wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Whatever the going rate is for someone in your line of work.[/quote]

And how is that determined?

Yep. And I can guarantee I’m not going to get one. Further, if I could get one, it would have been because I went way above and beyond the minimum requirements for me to complete my job.

Stayed late? I worked 74 hours last week (slow week). I billed 40 of that. My pay remains the same.

Besides, not all jobs fall into a “punch in/punch out”. My success is determined by completing a task or project to the satisfaction of my customer (sound familiar?) in a given timeframe. I have a begin date and an end date. My “work hours” limit is determined by the scope of a project. It’s not like being a bank teller or postal clerk or sch… nevermind.

Actually, no I can’t as it’s my company policy not to award bonuses. I am rewarded by retaining my employment with the company as there is no concept of ‘tenure’ in private sector consulting.

No. See above.

I design, write, and implement the software that keeps your electric (and gas/water/sewer) on in an outage or disaster. You know, that thing that provides light to your schools? And in your case in New Jersey specifically, I KNOW that it’s my software.

OK, and on that same question, how did we ‘mold the people who are the future of society’ before government schools? How are my children getting ‘molded’ as they do not attend a government school and are being taught by non-union teachers who are regular middle-class people living in the same neighborhood as me?

And, for the record, I used to contract with a government agency at about 40% below market salary thanks to union collective bargaining. My insurance is cheaper now as well. How did they help me again?

[/quote]
This is turning in to a pissing contest really. If you don’t like your company leave and find a more competetive one. Teachers have 3 choices, unemployment, public government schools or private schools that don’t pay as much.

The point is, you are demonizing the teachers for trying to make money yet you complain about your long hours and performance driven salary. You went to college right? When you decided what you wanted to do did the pay and work you would be doing not influence your choice?

One of the stupidest statements I heard came from a sheriffs lieutenant after I got out of the military and started my LEO job search. When I asked about how much overtime was available as a new officer because of the low starting pay(29,500 in 2003) she said “If you re taking this job for the money you are taking it for the wrong reasons”. Now granted, I wanted to make a difference, but I still had bills to pay and a future to establish.

How many people would still be doctors if they would only make 150,000 after 10 years yet still carry an enormous amount of college debt. If you are going to bring up the tax dollar issue check how much of your taxes go to medicare and your state taxes go to whatever state plan your state has. In NJ medicaid covers a shit ton of people, medicaid is funded by my tax dollars. Doctors are being paid by medicaid and medicare. By your logic we should limit what doctors make also since a large portion of their pay is paid by tax dollars.

[/quote]

I have typed several times in this thread alone that I’m not anti-teacher (ie. demonizing them) and have explained how and why. Read this: MY WIFE IS A TEACHER

We’ve already discussed the fundamental difference between doctor’s pay and government teachers. Go back and reread.

EDIT

re: my job – I love my job and company. You think me describing my typical week and receiving no bonuses means I don’t love my job? You’ll never hear me complain about what I do. I also am thankful the union didn’t negotiate my wages and benefits.

234

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

I’m bowing out. I don’t think this is a debate so much as it is people looking for one group to demonize rather than a way forward.

[/quote]

stuff[/quote]
stuff
[/quote]

Let’s get back to the original post: [/quote]

exactly.

235

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
All I ask from any of you is to show me just one example of where the Teacher’s Union has done anything to remotely attempt break the oppressive “government monopoly” in public education.

[/quote]

We do not need to do that.

You assume that “fighting the government monopoly” equals “fighting for you”.

Or maybe you mean “fighting to abolish it” vs our “fighting it to get what they want”.

236

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
All I ask from any of you is to show me just one example of where the Teacher’s Union has done anything to remotely attempt break the oppressive “government monopoly” in public education.

[/quote]

We do not need to do that.

You assume that “fighting the government monopoly” equals “fighting for you”.

Or maybe you mean “fighting to abolish it” vs our “fighting it to get what they want”.

[/quote]

No, it means that you, HH and others identify and agree that the problem is the government.

And, I agree.

This is my point: If, indeed the so-called “government monopoly” is the problem, then the unions are doing nothing to solvetheproblem, they are only acting to protecttheteachersfromtheproblem.

Now, in doing that (ie. “protecting teachers”), they are creating an adverse position to me, a person who believes that government shouldn’t be schooling children. In effect, the union becomes a de facto enemy to people like me, because in defending themselves they enable that which I am against.

The SOLUTION to the problem is to abolish government public education. Perhaps that’s a whole different thread.

But, please, let’s look for some intellectual honesty here-- The position that HH and others keep dancing around is that they are entitled to more money, NOT abolish government schools, the latter BEING THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It’s simply a case of where one mortal enemy (the union) has a necessary and parasitic relationship with another mortal enemy (the government, which apparently the unions apparently HATE the government).

Let’s be clear-- the UNION doesn’t exist to serve the best interests of education, it exists to serve the best interests of its dues paying members.

237

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

I’m bowing out. I don’t think this is a debate so much as it is people looking for one group to demonize rather than a way forward.

[/quote]

stuff[/quote]
stuff
[/quote]

Let’s get back to the original post: [/quote]

exactly.[/quote]

Agree.

Teacher, please propose a solution to this school district.

238

400×579 165 KB

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

(And to Bill: I have answered your question many times. Unions and monopoly schools are both sides of the same coin. And if you think unions will give up any power while monopoly schools are still in place means that you are delusional.)
[/quote]

You have “answered” my questions in the sense that you typed out words. Nowhere yet have you acknowledged that the teachers’ unions fight to MAINTAIN government monopoly.

As for your pretense that you think I have expressed an expectation that the unions will give up any power, the person that is delusional is you if you think a single thing I have written has been even remotely close to that.[/quote]

Why would one side of the same coin try to destroy the other side?

Used to think you’re pretty sharp but…damn…how many times must I say differently (so hopefully you’ll fucking get it) the same thing?

Are you intentionally being this stupid, just to troll me?

The pic, btw, is how most of you guys want teachers to live. Nope.
[/quote]

You’re being deliberately obtuse for the sake of trolling. I don’t think you’re actually so stupid as to think others are saying what you put in their mouths, and I don’t think you’re so stupid as to not grasp the points being made.

I do expect though that you’re so stubborn that you simply refuse to acknowledge points that you’ve been specifically asked that you know are true, but which wreck the stance you’ve taken.

HH trolling, who’da thunk.

So, what else is new…
[/quote]

Do you work in the insurance industry, Bill? Those internal conflicts are making you argue with Tyler.

239

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

But, please, let’s look for some intellectual honesty here-- The position that HH and others keep dancing around is that they are entitled to more money, NOT abolish government schools, the latter BEING THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[/quote]

Wow! Just…wow…

As a teacher, I do hereby give you an ‘F’ for reading comprehension.

This is a one reason I am glad I teach maths. Points can’t be debated when the student DOESN’T KNOW HOW TO READ.

240

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

But, please, let’s look for some intellectual honesty here-- The position that HH and others keep dancing around is that they are entitled to more money, NOT abolish government schools, the latter BEING THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[/quote]

Wow! Just…wow…

As a teacher, I do hereby give you an ‘F’ for reading comprehension.

This is a one reason I am glad I teach maths. Points can’t be debated when the student DOESN’T KNOW HOW TO READ.
[/quote]

Is it that he is misunderstanding your position or pretending to? I honestly can’t tell.