RI Superintendent to Fire All Teachers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Did you all not hear that the distric could hire back up to 50% of the teachers fired? This means they get to keep the good teachers and get rid of the trash.

This school had a 51% graduation rate. When are we going to start thinking that not everyone can attain a High School education. We need to set the bar higher instead of dumbing down all the curiculum so stupid people can pass.

HH how much time do you spend administering discipline every day? The 45 minutes of class is really only 30 because the kids who dont care wont keep their mouths shut.[/quote]

The fly on the wall hears…

“Charlie’s been here 13 years and makes $65000. Lindzey’s been with us 1 year and makes $36,000. Who should we keep?”

“Well, duh! Keep Lindzey!”

“But Charlie’s talented and knows what he’s doing. Lindzey’s new and still developing as a teacher.”

“Ah fuck that! Save the money.”

262

[quote]snipeout wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Yep, they salted the leeches; burned the ticks; and DDT’d the swamp skeeters

(NECN: Latoyia Edwards, Central Falls, RI) - The decision stands: 93 teachers, administrators and assistants will be fired at Central Falls High School in Rhode Island. The mass firings have caught the nation’s attention. Could this happen at other struggling schools in New England and beyond.

The rally to keep their jobs was not enough, every teacher and guidance counselor at Central Falls High School in Rhode Island will be fired in June because their students chronically underperform and 52 percent don’t graduate.

Kenneth Wong chairs the education department at Brown University. He says the teacher firings in Central Falls should be a warning to all school districts.

The U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan agrees. Secretary Duncan praised the Central Falls Board of Education for choosing to let go of all the troubled high school’s teachers-- in favor of attracting fresh talent. Under federal rules only 50 percent of the current teachers can be re-hired

Professor Wong says Chicago and Philadelphia have fired and replaced teachers at failing schools. He says New York City and Chicago are rapidly transforming poor public schools into charter schools, and Baltimore and Philadelphia are allowing nonprofit groups to manage underperforming learning centers.

Full story:
http://www.necn.com/02/24/10/Central-Falls-firings-have-caught-the-na/landing_newengland.html?blockID=186348&feedID=4206

Looks like it’s not the first time and also a trend. I genuine feel for any of the fired teachers who actually wanted to give a little more to make a difference but were not able to because of the unions unwillingness to budge.[/quote]

Lets put aside your hatred for teachers unions, pay, and benefits for a minute. At what point do you think the parents should be held responsible for the students failures? You can’t make a student or parent do the work. You present the material, clarify anything not understood then assign the work based on the lesson. If these underperforming students were not doing assignments and not willing to learn how can you make them learn?
[/quote]

Snipeout - That’s really the point of all of this is that PARENTS SHOULD BE responsible for educating their kids, not the government.

263

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.

I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.

Jesus…[/quote]

Pot.Kettle.Black

All of your responses are about money. For you this is all about money and entitlement, not actually solving problems.

I’ve even tried to steer this thread toward discussing solutions several times. No dice.

Perfect example of the mentality why these teachers got fired.

<Yawn.> I’m bored with you.

264

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.

I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.

Jesus…[/quote]

Pot.Kettle.Black

All of your responses are about money. For you this is all about money and entitlement, not actually solving problems.

I’ve even tried to steer this thread toward discussing solutions several times. No dice.

Perfect example of the mentality why these teachers got fired.

<Yawn.> I’m bored with you.[/quote]

Well, if you put it that way…I’m broken hearted, brah. We is brahs, right? Right?

Money is the root of all good. Money is human virtue in concrete form. Those pieces of paper in your pocket (which should have been gold) are a solemn contract with other people who produce things of value, that you may trade value for value, as equals.

People like you created a monopoly. You didn’t want to trade value for value as equals. You wanted to have teachers at your mercy, so you could dictate wages. Now that it blows up in your faces, that teachers can’t be cheated, you are angry. “How dare you want to be equals with our monopoly!!”

You tried to cheat reality. The low test scores, the ill mannered bums who stagger through 4 years at ‘high school’, who hate education with a passion, are a direct result of creating a cheating system.

You wouldn’t pay teachers what they’re worth? Okay, you got what you paid for.

265

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.

I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.

Jesus…[/quote]

Pot.Kettle.Black

All of your responses are about money. For you this is all about money and entitlement, not actually solving problems.

I’ve even tried to steer this thread toward discussing solutions several times. No dice.

Perfect example of the mentality why these teachers got fired.

<Yawn.> I’m bored with you.[/quote]

Well, if you put it that way…I’m broken hearted, brah. We is brahs, right? Right?

Money is the root of all good. Money is human virtue in concrete form. Those pieces of paper in your pocket (which should have been gold) are a solemn contract with other people who produce things of value, that you may trade value for value, as equals.

People like you created a monopoly. You didn’t want to trade value for value as equals. You wanted to have teachers at your mercy, so you could dictate wages. Now that it blows up in your faces, that teachers can’t be cheated, you are angry. “How dare you want to be equals with our monopoly!!”

You tried to cheat reality. The low test scores, the ill mannered bums who stagger through 4 years at ‘high school’, who hate education with a passion, are a direct result of creating a cheating system.

You wouldn’t pay teachers what they’re worth? Okay, you got what you paid for.
[/quote]

HH, I’d like your opinion on teachers compensation where I’m from: Long Island, NY. Starting salaries average around $50k. Assuming masters within the given timeframe, 5 years in they make $70k. Tenure at 3 years. Top of the scale is around $120k, give or take depending on the district. Insane health care coverage for life, generous pension, etc.

So let’s say a couple, 2 teachers with masters degrees, say 15+ years on the job each, would take home salary alone pushing a quarter of a million dollars a year. And that’s just salary - let’s not forget about the health care and pension, easily another 25-30k worth of comp. Plus, they have this job for life. Can’t be fired. And oh by the way, they work 190 days a year.

Education on Long Island is NO BETTER than any other cross-section of the country, and it depends (as usual) almost entirely on socio-economic factors as to where the “smart” kids are, not the quality of teachers. And we can assume the quality is pretty high, because school districts up here - and they are not especially big compared to county-wide systems in other states - generally fill a handful of positions from applicant pools in the thousands. Pretty easy to see why.

All that being said, property taxes up here are insane. It’s pretty common to see tax bills $10,000+ annually. And when budgets get voted down, the school districts cut sports b/c they can’t fire teachers. Sports!!

So, again, is the compensation I describe fair? Or is the government monopoly raping the poor teachers and their weak little union?

266

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I read the first few pages of it and the following is what I’d like to add.

I don’t think teachers should be paid a sky high wage, but at the end of the day you’re entrusting a stranger to teach your kids and give them the tools to succeed in life. Don’t you think the pay should be competitive enough to attract bright graduates into the field?

Sure you don’t have to be a genius to teach in high school, but if you don’t prepare the next generation properly then where do you end up. Oh wait, where we are now where all the other countries in the world are preparing their children better for road ahead and we’re continuously falling behind.

Our university system is great, private and public, but the former more-so. Our education systems are pathetic in comparison. I grew up in India there and went to private school (the public gov’t schools there are utter shit for the most part), and our parents taught us to respect our teachers, respect education, and listen and learn.

From all I’ve seen around me, it seems that parents want teachers to raise their kids, not give them the credit for doing it, and take no vested interest in the development of their children.

There’s something wrong in a system where state governments are facing such huge deficits that they have to cut shit tons of funding to education. How fucking short sighted is that? Do you want crippled minds for our future leaders?

Teachers are definitely partially to blame for this, but what about the parents who refuse to take any interest? I’m not talking about the single parents who are working 3 jobs to make ends meet and can’t afford to, I’m talking about the ones who just don’t give a fuck. Everyone wants to blame teachers for what their kids can or can’t do.

I love learning partially because my parents enjoyed helping me learn. My mom would read to me whenever she had the energy to do so after working 12 hour shifts. When she couldn’t read to me, she would give me a book to leaf through or I’d do so on my own. My dad loved helping me with my math and science homework.

Some nights after we moved to the US, he’d come and check up on me when I was doing homework at 2 in the morning on a school night. If I was stuck on a physics problem, he’d sit down with me and do the problem and teach me how to do it or we’d figure it out together.

If enough kids are told that their schooling is total bullshit, what will happen to their kids when they can’t answer basic questions or help them with their homework. Parents need to take a vested interest, and there need to be good teachers who actually give a fuck. Sure, it’s a job, but some jobs are different than others.

I say this as a senior set to graduate from college in may, and as a potential teacher in the San Francisco area.

267

[quote]
HH, I’d like your opinion on teachers compensation where I’m from: Long Island, NY. Starting salaries average around $50k. Assuming masters within the given timeframe, 5 years in they make $70k. Tenure at 3 years. Top of the scale is around $120k, give or take depending on the district. Insane health care coverage for life, generous pension, etc.

So let’s say a couple, 2 teachers with masters degrees, say 15+ years on the job each, would take home salary alone pushing a quarter of a million dollars a year. And that’s just salary - let’s not forget about the health care and pension, easily another 25-30k worth of comp. Plus, they have this job for life. Can’t be fired. And oh by the way, they work 190 days a year.

Education on Long Island is NO BETTER than any other cross-section of the country, and it depends (as usual) almost entirely on socio-economic factors as to where the “smart” kids are, not the quality of teachers. And we can assume the quality is pretty high, because school districts up here - and they are not especially big compared to county-wide systems in other states - generally fill a handful of positions from applicant pools in the thousands. Pretty easy to see why.

All that being said, property taxes up here are insane. It’s pretty common to see tax bills $10,000+ annually. And when budgets get voted down, the school districts cut sports b/c they can’t fire teachers. Sports!!

So, again, is the compensation I describe fair? Or is the government monopoly raping the poor teachers and their weak little union?[/quote]

I take issue with your saying that results depend on where ‘smart’ kids are. Education is a service, it should be judged by results. If you can’t teach, then you can’t teach. I’ve seen tons of data showing that good teachers in a classroom can boost their students’ scores to well beyond those expected in a district. And these are teachers assigned the average or ‘poor’ students in lower socio-economic areas of the countries.

268

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.

I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.

Jesus…[/quote]

Pot.Kettle.Black

All of your responses are about money. For you this is all about money and entitlement, not actually solving problems.

I’ve even tried to steer this thread toward discussing solutions several times. No dice.

Perfect example of the mentality why these teachers got fired.

<Yawn.> I’m bored with you.[/quote]

Well, if you put it that way…I’m broken hearted, brah. We is brahs, right? Right?

Money is the root of all good. Money is human virtue in concrete form. Those pieces of paper in your pocket (which should have been gold) are a solemn contract with other people who produce things of value, that you may trade value for value, as equals.

People like you created a monopoly. You didn’t want to trade value for value as equals. You wanted to have teachers at your mercy, so you could dictate wages. Now that it blows up in your faces, that teachers can’t be cheated, you are angry. “How dare you want to be equals with our monopoly!!”

You tried to cheat reality. The low test scores, the ill mannered bums who stagger through 4 years at ‘high school’, who hate education with a passion, are a direct result of creating a cheating system.

You wouldn’t pay teachers what they’re worth? Okay, you got what you paid for.
[/quote]

HH, I’d like your opinion on teachers compensation where I’m from: Long Island, NY. Starting salaries average around $50k. Assuming masters within the given timeframe, 5 years in they make $70k. Tenure at 3 years. Top of the scale is around $120k, give or take depending on the district. Insane health care coverage for life, generous pension, etc.

So let’s say a couple, 2 teachers with masters degrees, say 15+ years on the job each, would take home salary alone pushing a quarter of a million dollars a year. And that’s just salary - let’s not forget about the health care and pension, easily another 25-30k worth of comp. Plus, they have this job for life. Can’t be fired. And oh by the way, they work 190 days a year.

Education on Long Island is NO BETTER than any other cross-section of the country, and it depends (as usual) almost entirely on socio-economic factors as to where the “smart” kids are, not the quality of teachers. And we can assume the quality is pretty high, because school districts up here - and they are not especially big compared to county-wide systems in other states - generally fill a handful of positions from applicant pools in the thousands. Pretty easy to see why.

All that being said, property taxes up here are insane. It’s pretty common to see tax bills $10,000+ annually. And when budgets get voted down, the school districts cut sports b/c they can’t fire teachers. Sports!!

So, again, is the compensation I describe fair? Or is the government monopoly raping the poor teachers and their weak little union?[/quote]

Just because I UNDERSTAND why unions were formed doesn’t mean I support them.

I am against government schools. Schools should compete in all aspects, just like any other business. But they don’t, and so the teachers reacted by unionizing. THAT’S my point.

The whole system is a corruption. The monopoly schools, the monopoly unions, are both sides of an evil coin.

I suspect that we’re seeing the death dance of the whole system. Monopolies depend on continuity. But life is chaotic. Social Security, Medicare, government employees, and so on, all depend on a continuous system that can afford to pay them. Is that what’s happening?

269

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.

I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.

Jesus…[/quote]

Pot.Kettle.Black

All of your responses are about money. For you this is all about money and entitlement, not actually solving problems.

I’ve even tried to steer this thread toward discussing solutions several times. No dice.

Perfect example of the mentality why these teachers got fired.

<Yawn.> I’m bored with you.[/quote]

Well, if you put it that way…I’m broken hearted, brah. We is brahs, right? Right?

Money is the root of all good. Money is human virtue in concrete form. Those pieces of paper in your pocket (which should have been gold) are a solemn contract with other people who produce things of value, that you may trade value for value, as equals.

People like you created a monopoly. You didn’t want to trade value for value as equals. You wanted to have teachers at your mercy, so you could dictate wages. Now that it blows up in your faces, that teachers can’t be cheated, you are angry. “How dare you want to be equals with our monopoly!!”

You tried to cheat reality. The low test scores, the ill mannered bums who stagger through 4 years at ‘high school’, who hate education with a passion, are a direct result of creating a cheating system.

You wouldn’t pay teachers what they’re worth? Okay, you got what you paid for.
[/quote]

WTF are you drinking?

You keep saying ‘brah’. I don’t get it.

“I” didn’t ‘create’ anything. “People like me”? I don’t even know what that means.

You keep going off on this babbling rant instead of discussing what might have been a real solution, which is apparently something you can’t do.

And you know, I guess that in your case, those who can’t do, teach.

Anyone else want to try to suggest some solutions and have a real discussion, because apparently, “the teacher” doesn’t have any except “pay me more money”. And some wonder why they got canned.

270

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.

I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.

Jesus…[/quote]

Pot.Kettle.Black

All of your responses are about money. For you this is all about money and entitlement, not actually solving problems.

I’ve even tried to steer this thread toward discussing solutions several times. No dice.

Perfect example of the mentality why these teachers got fired.

<Yawn.> I’m bored with you.[/quote]

Well, if you put it that way…I’m broken hearted, brah. We is brahs, right? Right?

Money is the root of all good. Money is human virtue in concrete form. Those pieces of paper in your pocket (which should have been gold) are a solemn contract with other people who produce things of value, that you may trade value for value, as equals.

People like you created a monopoly. You didn’t want to trade value for value as equals. You wanted to have teachers at your mercy, so you could dictate wages. Now that it blows up in your faces, that teachers can’t be cheated, you are angry. “How dare you want to be equals with our monopoly!!”

You tried to cheat reality. The low test scores, the ill mannered bums who stagger through 4 years at ‘high school’, who hate education with a passion, are a direct result of creating a cheating system.

You wouldn’t pay teachers what they’re worth? Okay, you got what you paid for.
[/quote]

HH, I’d like your opinion on teachers compensation where I’m from: Long Island, NY. Starting salaries average around $50k. Assuming masters within the given timeframe, 5 years in they make $70k. Tenure at 3 years. Top of the scale is around $120k, give or take depending on the district. Insane health care coverage for life, generous pension, etc.

So let’s say a couple, 2 teachers with masters degrees, say 15+ years on the job each, would take home salary alone pushing a quarter of a million dollars a year. And that’s just salary - let’s not forget about the health care and pension, easily another 25-30k worth of comp. Plus, they have this job for life. Can’t be fired. And oh by the way, they work 190 days a year.

Education on Long Island is NO BETTER than any other cross-section of the country, and it depends (as usual) almost entirely on socio-economic factors as to where the “smart” kids are, not the quality of teachers. And we can assume the quality is pretty high, because school districts up here - and they are not especially big compared to county-wide systems in other states - generally fill a handful of positions from applicant pools in the thousands. Pretty easy to see why.

All that being said, property taxes up here are insane. It’s pretty common to see tax bills $10,000+ annually. And when budgets get voted down, the school districts cut sports b/c they can’t fire teachers. Sports!!

So, again, is the compensation I describe fair? Or is the government monopoly raping the poor teachers and their weak little union?[/quote]

double h - I just got my financials for my kid’s (private) school this week. Tuition is going up next year. Our (non-union) teachers get paid, on average, about 10% below that of the local public school teachers and have similar benefits, except they contribute some out of pocket like the rest of the private sector (unlike gov’t teachers), and private retirement funds (versus the bloated state system). They also don’t have the concept of ‘tenure’.

Our school outperforms every public school in the state. We only even compare to other private schools and other schools across New England.

Guess how much our “cost per student” is?

Regardless of what some whiny teachers will say, six-figure salaried, cadillac benefitted, tenured teachers are not what makes successful educators and schools.

Note: We do not ‘drive down’ or ‘enslave’ our teachers. Our school has a history of giving teachers raises every year and do all we can for them because they’re GREAT teachers who perform wonderfully and they love their jobs.

Did I mention they’re non-union, and non-government?

271

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.

I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.

Jesus…[/quote]

Pot.Kettle.Black

All of your responses are about money. For you this is all about money and entitlement, not actually solving problems.

I’ve even tried to steer this thread toward discussing solutions several times. No dice.

Perfect example of the mentality why these teachers got fired.

<Yawn.> I’m bored with you.[/quote]

Well, if you put it that way…I’m broken hearted, brah. We is brahs, right? Right?

Money is the root of all good. Money is human virtue in concrete form. Those pieces of paper in your pocket (which should have been gold) are a solemn contract with other people who produce things of value, that you may trade value for value, as equals.

People like you created a monopoly. You didn’t want to trade value for value as equals. You wanted to have teachers at your mercy, so you could dictate wages. Now that it blows up in your faces, that teachers can’t be cheated, you are angry. “How dare you want to be equals with our monopoly!!”

You tried to cheat reality. The low test scores, the ill mannered bums who stagger through 4 years at ‘high school’, who hate education with a passion, are a direct result of creating a cheating system.

You wouldn’t pay teachers what they’re worth? Okay, you got what you paid for.
[/quote]

HH, I’d like your opinion on teachers compensation where I’m from: Long Island, NY. Starting salaries average around $50k. Assuming masters within the given timeframe, 5 years in they make $70k. Tenure at 3 years. Top of the scale is around $120k, give or take depending on the district. Insane health care coverage for life, generous pension, etc.

So let’s say a couple, 2 teachers with masters degrees, say 15+ years on the job each, would take home salary alone pushing a quarter of a million dollars a year. And that’s just salary - let’s not forget about the health care and pension, easily another 25-30k worth of comp. Plus, they have this job for life. Can’t be fired. And oh by the way, they work 190 days a year.

Education on Long Island is NO BETTER than any other cross-section of the country, and it depends (as usual) almost entirely on socio-economic factors as to where the “smart” kids are, not the quality of teachers. And we can assume the quality is pretty high, because school districts up here - and they are not especially big compared to county-wide systems in other states - generally fill a handful of positions from applicant pools in the thousands. Pretty easy to see why.

All that being said, property taxes up here are insane. It’s pretty common to see tax bills $10,000+ annually. And when budgets get voted down, the school districts cut sports b/c they can’t fire teachers. Sports!!

So, again, is the compensation I describe fair? Or is the government monopoly raping the poor teachers and their weak little union?[/quote]

double h - I just got my financials for my kid’s (private) school this week. Tuition is going up next year. Our (non-union) teachers get paid, on average, about 10% below that of the local public school teachers and have similar benefits, except they contribute some out of pocket like the rest of the private sector (unlike gov’t teachers), and private retirement funds (versus the bloated state system). They also don’t have the concept of ‘tenure’.

Our school outperforms every public school in the state. We only even compare to other private schools and other schools across New England.

Guess how much our “cost per student” is?

Regardless of what some whiny teachers will say, six-figure salaried, cadillac benefitted, tenured teachers are not what makes successful educators and schools.

Note: We do not ‘drive down’ or ‘enslave’ our teachers. Our school has a history of giving teachers raises every year and do all we can for them because they’re GREAT teachers who perform wonderfully and they love their jobs.

Did I mention they’re non-union, and non-government?[/quote]

What would their wages be if there wasn’t a public school down the road?

(You do understand that a government-mandated monopoly makes determining market-based wages impossible to determine?)

Unions and monopolies go hand-in-hand. Hamstringing the unions while leaving the monopoly in place simply means that pay will plummet. Imagine a thug standing at the gates of a factory. You are there with no other place to go. The thug says: “$3 per hour or beat it!” What do you do? Your alternative is to starve.

Teacher unions are necessary as long as monopoly schools predominate.

Finally, to answer the question I opened with: If the public school system broke the union in the nearby public schools and dropped pay, would your school still keep paying what you do?
ROFLMAO!!!

272

Oh c’mon, there’s no way that a free market wage – where employer and employee mutually and completely voluntarily agree that this is what they wish to do – can possibly be “fair.”

“Fair” is where it’s at, don’cha know.

And HH’s line of reasoning (?) would have that what your school is paying is not fair.

We need people like HH and union leaders to figure out what is fair. There is no way that each individual teacher and each individual school should decide between themselves what pay is mutually agreeable. That would be unfair. Oppressive, don’cha know.

273

Yes, I believe everyone should be able to choose to be part of a union or not.

Does a teacher at a public school get to choose whether or not they want to join the union? My dad taught for quite a while, he did not get the option he had to be part of the union, or he could look for another job.

Bad teachers are frustrating, bad parents probably have more to do with the success/failure of most students IMO. The school phone message was great!

It would be hard to normalize the potential of students coming in each year to give an objective measure of performance for individual teachers. Figuring out raises for our non-tenure, non-union staff every year is hard, but I’ll bet it gives more incentive at least for some, than a contracted number. If there was tenure it would really be hard to make needed changes.

274

Ah, OK, so HH has gone the route of the classic Liberal stance: “Oh, but it could happen, so we MUST demand things NOW”, yet STILL offers nothing to the discussion of SOLUTIONS.

Yeah, HH, I needed the union to set my wages so I could leave the private sector and almost double my salary. This is hilarious.

I can’t this guy seriously, especially the next time he complains about Obama, Democrats, taxes, or government. I’ll just go ahead and ‘ignore’ now.

L.O. F’in L.

Bill, most of our teachers left the public school system to teach ‘at slave wages’ (ie. anything below union demand wages) in our private school because they were offered a chance to make a difference in education rather than being cookie cutter union flunkies. Anecdotally, the teachers I’ve talked this over with, including the (former) one I sat next to on might flight home last night agree that they would have put in the extra effort FIRST, then used that as justification for higher wages-- you know, like the rest of the (non-gov’t) world.

UNION: When we were younger (early 90’s) my girlfriend (now my wife) was working for a road construction company in NJ where her father was a foreman. She was a flagger, and for that summer was required to join the union (you know, because the government hating unions lobbied to get laws passed that require state roadwork to be done by---- union shops). Anyway, early 90’s road construction flagger: Guess how much per hour she made in 1990’s dollars…

Btw, no one tried to guess what it costs to educate a private school student in my school: K-8, all bells/whistles, gym, extra-curricular team sports, etc (in other words, a typical K-8 school)…

275

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Ah, OK, so HH has gone the route of the classic Liberal stance: “Oh, but it could happen, so we MUST demand things NOW”, yet STILL offers nothing to the discussion of SOLUTIONS.
[/quote]

Oh but he has, you are just not paying attention.

Get rid of public education and you get rid of the unions.

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Of course, the real solution is this:

http://www.schoolandstate.org/parentrights.htm

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[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Ah, OK, so HH has gone the route of the classic Liberal stance: “Oh, but it could happen, so we MUST demand things NOW”, yet STILL offers nothing to the discussion of SOLUTIONS.
[/quote]

Oh but he has, you are just not paying attention.

Get rid of public education and you get rid of the unions. [/quote]
To be effective in the real world at solving problems, it is bad to have an attitude that if the perfect solution cannot presently be achieved then the hell with it, we won’t go with an intermediate improvement but will stick with utter crap.

It is in closer reach for a given school to tell the union “Screw you, we will deal with you no further: Each individual teacher that wishes to work for us under the terms we offer and whom we wish to hire is welcome here, and as for the rest of you, don’t let the door hit your worthless ass on the way out” than it is to abolish government education today.

(Not that the second wouldn’t be a great further thing to accomplish.)

Our thread here was on a simple topic: What this RI school had offered, what they were told by the union, and what their response was.

You tell me what HH’s solution was, that was actually a doable solution today.

The RI superintendent figured it out: HH never has yet, or if he has he certainly hasn’t posted it. The basic summary of what I’ve seen from him is whining that what teachers get isn’t fair.

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445×810 86.2 KB

http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm

“I don’t represent the children. I represent the teachers.”

– Al Shanker, former president of the American Federation of Teachers

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[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]doubleh wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The ‘new’ teachers replacing the fired ones will… …start at the bottom of the pay scale. But of course that’s not the goal, to save money. The goal is education.

I’m sure a school full of 23 year olds with no experience (but cheap mind you, cheap) will do just a magnificent job. Scores will shoot up, the kids will stop smoking weed and impregnating each other, and all will be right with the world.

Jesus…[/quote]

Pot.Kettle.Black

All of your responses are about money. For you this is all about money and entitlement, not actually solving problems.

I’ve even tried to steer this thread toward discussing solutions several times. No dice.

Perfect example of the mentality why these teachers got fired.

<Yawn.> I’m bored with you.[/quote]

Well, if you put it that way…I’m broken hearted, brah. We is brahs, right? Right?

Money is the root of all good. Money is human virtue in concrete form. Those pieces of paper in your pocket (which should have been gold) are a solemn contract with other people who produce things of value, that you may trade value for value, as equals.

People like you created a monopoly. You didn’t want to trade value for value as equals. You wanted to have teachers at your mercy, so you could dictate wages. Now that it blows up in your faces, that teachers can’t be cheated, you are angry. “How dare you want to be equals with our monopoly!!”

You tried to cheat reality. The low test scores, the ill mannered bums who stagger through 4 years at ‘high school’, who hate education with a passion, are a direct result of creating a cheating system.

You wouldn’t pay teachers what they’re worth? Okay, you got what you paid for.
[/quote]

HH, I’d like your opinion on teachers compensation where I’m from: Long Island, NY. Starting salaries average around $50k. Assuming masters within the given timeframe, 5 years in they make $70k. Tenure at 3 years. Top of the scale is around $120k, give or take depending on the district. Insane health care coverage for life, generous pension, etc.

So let’s say a couple, 2 teachers with masters degrees, say 15+ years on the job each, would take home salary alone pushing a quarter of a million dollars a year. And that’s just salary - let’s not forget about the health care and pension, easily another 25-30k worth of comp. Plus, they have this job for life. Can’t be fired. And oh by the way, they work 190 days a year.

Education on Long Island is NO BETTER than any other cross-section of the country, and it depends (as usual) almost entirely on socio-economic factors as to where the “smart” kids are, not the quality of teachers. And we can assume the quality is pretty high, because school districts up here - and they are not especially big compared to county-wide systems in other states - generally fill a handful of positions from applicant pools in the thousands. Pretty easy to see why.

All that being said, property taxes up here are insane. It’s pretty common to see tax bills $10,000+ annually. And when budgets get voted down, the school districts cut sports b/c they can’t fire teachers. Sports!!

So, again, is the compensation I describe fair? Or is the government monopoly raping the poor teachers and their weak little union?[/quote]

Just because I UNDERSTAND why unions were formed doesn’t mean I support them.

I am against government schools. Schools should compete in all aspects, just like any other business. But they don’t, and so the teachers reacted by unionizing. THAT’S my point.

The whole system is a corruption. The monopoly schools, the monopoly unions, are both sides of an evil coin.

I suspect that we’re seeing the death dance of the whole system. Monopolies depend on continuity. But life is chaotic. Social Security, Medicare, government employees, and so on, all depend on a continuous system that can afford to pay them. Is that what’s happening?
[/quote]

OK… but actually, it seems like your point was teachers unionized because they were underpaid and exploited. And it sure sounded like you were pro-union.

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[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

The RI superintendent figured it out: HH never has yet, or if he has he certainly hasn’t posted it. The basic summary of what I’ve seen from him is whining that what teachers get isn’t fair.

[/quote]