RI Superintendent to Fire All Teachers

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1

I posted this in another thread, but do discuss would really pull the other off topic. It really deserves its own thread. It illustrates the unwillingness of the Teachers Union to give an inch, and the attitude of teachers who are partly to blame for some of the worst test scores in RI

RI school district to fire high school teachers

CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. - The superintendent of the Central Falls schools says she will fire every teacher at the high school after they refused to accept a reform plan.

The plan was offered under a state mandate to fix the school, which has among Rhode Islandâ??s worst test scores and graduation rates.

The plan included six conditions such as adding 25 minutes to the day and providing tutoring outside school hours.

The added work didn’t come with much extra pay and the teachers union refused to accept it.

Full Story:
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view/20100213ri_school_district_to_fire_high_school_teachers/srvc=home&position=recent

2

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I posted this in another thread, but do discuss would really pull the other off topic. It really deserves its own thread. It illustrates the unwillingness of the Teachers Union to give an inch, and the attitude of teachers who are partly to blame for some of the worst test scores in RI

RI school district to fire high school teachers

CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. - The superintendent of the Central Falls schools says she will fire every teacher at the high school after they refused to accept a reform plan.

The plan was offered under a state mandate to fix the school, which has among Rhode Island�¢??s worst test scores and graduation rates.

The plan included six conditions such as adding 25 minutes to the day and providing tutoring outside school hours.

The added work didn’t come with much extra pay and the teachers union refused to accept it.

Full Story:
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view/20100213ri_school_district_to_fire_high_school_teachers/srvc=home&position=recent

[/quote]

Hmmmm…come out of school 50 or 100k in debt, take a job paying 35k pre-tax, teaching kids who have the manners of wild animals, and work pretty much every waking hour…

…so some governor can balance his budget on your back and scapegoat you.

Okay, that’s pretty stupid.

3

So? Many jobs, private sector for instance don’t start at high pay ratems. And these often depend on that funny thing cdlled performance. But those jobs don’t have built kn wage increases, generous pensions, high encmddical SMS, with the bonus of you practically have to kill someone to get fired.

4

I’m salaried, just like public school teachers. If my boss says “D (and yes, he calls me “D”), I need you to fly to Buttfuck, USA tomorrow because a customer needs you”, guess what I do?

Fuck all that I had a doctor appointment. I don’t get to work “8-5”. I work when I need to work. If my boss wants 25 extra minutes of my time to make the company better, I give it to him. We’re not talking about missing a funeral or wedding here. The superintendent needs a little more from the worst teachers in R.I. and they’re not willing.

In the real world, they get canned for some people who are hungry.

Don’t give me that bullshit about over worked teachers waah waah waah. I know you’re a teacher. My wife was a public school teacher. Half our damn family is/was a school teacher. They all say the unions made shit worse.

Can 'em.

5

Fuck these fucking NJEA mafia motherfuckers who are bleeding my state dry and getting 4 percent raises across the board, all the while not paying a fucking DIME into their health insurance, and top out at around 100k for working 180 out 365 days of the year.

And if you want to give them less than 4 percent? “That’s unacceptable. We’re doing it for the kids!”

Fuck that and fuck them.

PS. It’s funny how HH switches sides when a topic hits too close to home. We should all be like Ayn Rand and make our own way! Oh wait, except if you support the teachers union. You ball-less hypocrite you.

6

I don’t know much about RI schools or the teachers. I do know that on the whole, teaching sucks in this country. It’s low pay and high stress. Add to that the general public sees them as having “lesser” jobs. Most new teachers quit within 3-5 years. I know a young woman who just went to work virtually for free for one year in an inner city school. She is highly intelligent and highly motivated and wanted to donate two years of her life to helping others while she was young… I doubt she’ll last the year. She’s already cracking.

If the teachers are actually making 100K, then, yeah, F them. I think the norm is closer to HH’s 35k though.

Wasn’t that “The Wire” Season 2?

7

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. - The superintendent of the Central Falls schools says she will fire every teacher at the high school after they refused to accept a reform plan.

The plan was offered under a state mandate to fix the school, which has among Rhode Island’s worst test scores and graduation rates.

The plan included six conditions such as adding 25 minutes to the day and providing tutoring outside school hours.

The added work didn’t come with much extra pay and the teachers union refused to accept it.
[/quote]

Hmmmm…come out of school 50 or 100k in debt, take a job paying 35k pre-tax, teaching kids who have the manners of wild animals, and work pretty much every waking hour…

…so some governor can balance his budget on your back and scapegoat you.

Okay, that’s pretty stupid.[/quote]
Yes, how stupid of anyone to have imagined that the teachers had anything to do with the poor educational outcome, among the worst in the state, or that having done a lousy job to date they ought to put a bit more into it. Screw that!

8

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. - The superintendent of the Central Falls schools says she will fire every teacher at the high school after they refused to accept a reform plan.

The plan was offered under a state mandate to fix the school, which has among Rhode Island’s worst test scores and graduation rates.

The plan included six conditions such as adding 25 minutes to the day and providing tutoring outside school hours.

The added work didn’t come with much extra pay and the teachers union refused to accept it.
[/quote]

Hmmmm…come out of school 50 or 100k in debt, take a job paying 35k pre-tax, teaching kids who have the manners of wild animals, and work pretty much every waking hour…

…so some governor can balance his budget on your back and scapegoat you.

Okay, that’s pretty stupid.[/quote]
Yes, how stupid of anyone to have imagined that the teachers had anything to do with the poor educational outcome, among the worst in the state, or that having done a lousy job to date they ought to put a bit more into it. Screw that!
[/quote]

Reality check: you guys get what you pay for.

Pay your doctor or lawyer 35k and see what happens.

On top of that, insult them. Until the tenure laws, fire them when they’re 50 years old and another younger fool comes along.

Maybe Toyota started paying their engineers what teachers make – squeeze the pay down, boys!

LOL!!

9

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I don’t know much about RI schools or the teachers. I do know that on the whole, teaching sucks in this country. It’s low pay and high stress. Add to that the general public sees them as having “lesser” jobs. Most new teachers quit within 3-5 years. I know a young woman who just went to work virtually for free for one year in an inner city school. She is highly intelligent and highly motivated and wanted to donate two years of her life to helping others while she was young… I doubt she’ll last the year. She’s already cracking.

If the teachers are actually making 100K, then, yeah, F them. I think the norm is closer to HH’s 35k though.

Wasn’t that “The Wire” Season 2?[/quote]

…Season 4. Season 2 was the ports.

Damn I miss The Wire.

10

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I don’t know much about RI schools or the teachers. I do know that on the whole, teaching sucks in this country. It’s low pay and high stress. Add to that the general public sees them as having “lesser” jobs. Most new teachers quit within 3-5 years. I know a young woman who just went to work virtually for free for one year in an inner city school. She is highly intelligent and highly motivated and wanted to donate two years of her life to helping others while she was young… I doubt she’ll last the year. She’s already cracking.

If the teachers are actually making 100K, then, yeah, F them. I think the norm is closer to HH’s 35k though.

Wasn’t that “The Wire” Season 2?[/quote]

Are you a teacher?

35k is bare bones mandated minimum salary in many states, especially in the populous northeast and other population centers. With annual mandated union scale raises at 4% (or more), plus fully/mostly paid Cadillac healthcare plans, (usually) state retirement plans (partial paid), and tenure, your measley 35K turns into a valued salary around 60-80k (minus union dues). So after a few years, their loaded salary packages are easily over 100k.

Some (non-administrative) teachers in NJ approach or exceed 80K. After a few years, they’re around $60.

…

The most recent report included a list of teacher salaries by state. The state with the highest average teacher salary was Connecticut, at $57,760. California was a very close second, where the average teacher salary is $57,604. New Jersey teachers make approximately $56,635 per year.

Rounding out the top five were Illinois and Rhode Island, with the average teacher salary at $56,494 and $56,432, respectively.

The state with the lowest average teacher salary was South Dakota, at $34,039.

According to CBSalary.com, the average teacher salary by city was as follows: teacher-salaries-listed

* Springfield, IL â?? $48,015
* Chicago, IL â?? $53,713
* Atlanta, GA â?? $35,903
* Savannah, GA â?? $25,008
* Orlando, FL â?? $31,684
* Tampa, FL â?? $36,630
* Miami, FL â?? $34,501

Teacher salary also varies according to education level of the teacher. A teacher with a four year bachelorâ??s degree may make less than a teacher with a masterâ??s degree. The ranges for teacher salary in Chicago, IL vary from $37,372 to $89,620. This wide range obviously incorporates education level and experience of a multitude of teachers.

Teacher salary also depends on what school level or subject teachers specialize in. A secondary school teacher may make more than a primary school teacher. In Chicago, a primary school teacher makes approximately $44,480. A secondary school teacher makes about $4,000 more, or $48,180. The average mathematics teacher makes $38,211, while the average science teacher makes $62,391. These teachers may make up to $52,977 or $87,946, respectively. A history teacher at the secondary level makes $38,256.

The highest reported income for a history teacher in Chicago is $53,106. These wide ranges include teachers in public and private institutions at a variety of experience levels.

###########

So, from the above (which doesn’t state the years from which the data were collected), R.I. teachers are some of the highest paid teachers IN THE NATION on average. This school is asking THE WORST of the HIGHEST PAID for 25 minutes extra per day… And they say “No.” (or at least the union says “no” on their behalf.

11

Interesting find. As I said, if they are making 100k, F 'em. But who is making 100k?

Taking a quick look myself (it’s been a few years since I’ve looked). The average teacher Salary in the US is $47,602 (as cited above). This is a good amount, but no where near the 100k you are claiming. You seem to be insisting that we should add another 20k-50k /year for health insurance and retirement plans… seems kinda steep to me. Do you have any data to back up that amount?

To me, it’s a simple matter of economics. It is estimated that almost a third of America’s teachers leave the
field sometime during their first three years of teaching, and almost half leave after five
years. The supply of teachers is deemed “adequate” to meet demand. http://www.ncsu.edu/mentorjunction/text_files/teacher_retentionsymposium.pdf

Fair enough, then we should expect “adequate” results. The best and brightest teachers seem to realize they can make more money and be happier someplace else and leave. But then can society complain when results are “adequate?” Econ 101, if you want greater teacher retention and a higher quality pool of applicants, raise the salary. AND ALLOW PEOPLE TO BE PAID BASED UPON THEIR WORK!

Here is where I HATE the Teacher’s Union. Teachers SHOULD BE PAID BASED UPON THEIR WORK! It makes no sense to pay the lazy man who barely passed college and plays a video everyday for class the same as the woman who comes to work early, stays late, and gets results. Sure, there should be a debate about how to measure their work. Of course a teacher teaching in the middle of an impoverished area is going to have lower test scores than someone living in a rich neighborhood, but there should be work related pay increases. Again, econ 101. People respond to incentives. If they can sit back and do nothing, many will. If they get paid more to do more, they’ll do that too.

One last random point and then my rant is over. A 4% mandated pay raise? What is the inflation rate? Are salaries keeping up with inflation? It seems mandating that salaries keep up with inflation is just fine, especially given high turnover rates.

/rant

12

Gambit – read my posts again. You’ve greatly inflated the numbers I posted, and I never claimed teachers make 100k. What I said was that in the higher salary brackets, the additional benefits package puts the value over 100k.

And, to be clear, we’re not just talking about teachers. “Public Education” is top-heavy in administration. That’s where a lot of money is wasted.

State employment benefits vary by state obviously, but when you add in fully paid medical benefits (health, med, vision, dental, etc), sick/vacation/holidays, personal days, matched retirement – 15k-20k is not near outrageous.

Here’s a S.Carolina state employee example (and SC is not known for it’s extravagant government):

Fringe Benefits Single Coverage Value Full Family Coverage

15 Days Annual Leave $1,730.77 $1,730.77
15 Days Sick Leave $1,730.77 $1,730.77
Health, Dental, Life & Disability Insurance $2,663.88 $5,784.96
Holidays $1,384.62 $1,384.62
Retirement Match $2,265.00 $2,265.00
Social Security Match $2,295.00 $2,295.00
Workers’ Compensation $300.00 $300.00

Total Dollar Amount of Fringe Benefits $12,370.03 $15,491.11
Annual Salary $30,000 $30,000

Total Compensation Package $42,370.03 $45,491.11
Fringe Benefits as a Percentage of Annual Salary 41% 52%

I know from my time contracting with State of Maine that these numbers are very similar, and Maine is a small, relatively poor state that consistently falls in the bottom percentile for wages public and private (in fact public average wages are higher than private sector in my state).

So, if you’re making 35k, an additional 15k of benefit puts your employment VALUE at 50k. At 65k an additional 15k puts your value at 80k. At 85k (not unreasonable for a principal or administrator) that puts the value at 100k. Again, in my relatively poor state, principals and superintendents exceed 100k salaries, while average teacher salaries are 30s-40s.

I think most of us agree that the teacher’s unions are more of a burden than helpful in the big picture. They certainly don’t cast a good light on the teachers they represent.

re: raises – funny, most of the people in the private sector I know didn’t get 4% raises (if any at all) in the past 2 years. Some got laid off. Guaranteed raises? No way.

13

I know my sister has a masters degree. She has been teaching for 10 years and is making 55K approx per year with a 4% increase every year. She works 180 Days per year, but she is a very good teacher. I’m not hating on her. BUT there are other teachers who I know are making 60, 70K salary who have been teaching for 40 years.

They do horrible jobs, and there is no way to get rid of them. I am ok with the people who have been working as teachers for 20 years or less. They generally have a better education and work hard. It’s the teachers who started in the 60’s teaching who are still there.

Lets be clear about one more thing. 180 days per year is a part time job. MANY teachers pick up secondary jobs, like on a golf course over the summer or doing construction etc… Seasonal jobs that they can pick up and throw another 10 or 15K into thier pocket. My brother in law teaches summer school for example. So the teachers salary average of 45 or whatever is basicaly for a part time job.

my .02

V

14

Growing up I had many good to great teachers and I agreed they were underpaid. Not now.

When I was in school most people we knew that went into education were not the best and brightest. And now it’s coming home to roost. My local school has many of what I call crappy teachers. Some are good, but I’m not overall impressed.

I don’t think the answer is higher pay. The answer is no union and individually negotiated contracts. You’re good, you’re paid good. As for great and crappy, same applies.

15

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. - The superintendent of the Central Falls schools says she will fire every teacher at the high school after they refused to accept a reform plan.

The plan was offered under a state mandate to fix the school, which has among Rhode Island’s worst test scores and graduation rates.

The plan included six conditions such as adding 25 minutes to the day and providing tutoring outside school hours.

The added work didn’t come with much extra pay and the teachers union refused to accept it.
[/quote]

Hmmmm…come out of school 50 or 100k in debt, take a job paying 35k pre-tax, teaching kids who have the manners of wild animals, and work pretty much every waking hour…

…so some governor can balance his budget on your back and scapegoat you.

Okay, that’s pretty stupid.[/quote]
Yes, how stupid of anyone to have imagined that the teachers had anything to do with the poor educational outcome, among the worst in the state, or that having done a lousy job to date they ought to put a bit more into it. Screw that!
[/quote]

Reality check: you guys get what you pay for.

Pay your doctor or lawyer 35k and see what happens.

On top of that, insult them. Until the tenure laws, fire them when they’re 50 years old and another younger fool comes along.

Maybe Toyota started paying their engineers what teachers make – squeeze the pay down, boys!

LOL!!
[/quote]

You’re crazy if you are comparing the education of a physician and an education major.

16

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I know my sister has a masters degree. She has been teaching for 10 years and is making 55K approx per year with a 4% increase every year. She works 180 Days per year, but she is a very good teacher. I’m not hating on her. BUT there are other teachers who I know are making 60, 70K salary who have been teaching for 40 years.

They do horrible jobs, and there is no way to get rid of them. I am ok with the people who have been working as teachers for 20 years or less. They generally have a better education and work hard. It’s the teachers who started in the 60’s teaching who are still there.

Lets be clear about one more thing. 180 days per year is a part time job. MANY teachers pick up secondary jobs, like on a golf course over the summer or doing construction etc… Seasonal jobs that they can pick up and throw another 10 or 15K into thier pocket. My brother in law teaches summer school for example. So the teachers salary average of 45 or whatever is basicaly for a part time job.

my .02

V[/quote]

absolutely agree.

Tenure is the greatest abomination in the country. And who would have thought that HH, the anti-union, pull yourself up guy, wants TENURE, which guarantees a job! On top of the union so they make more money off of TAXES!!

I hope everyone is fully realizing his massive hypocrisy here.

17

I know I bring up my state alot (Cali), but I do it because it is the best example of how the teacher unions are more mafia-like than the mafia. LAUSD (Los Angeles Unified School District) pays it’s teachers the most than any other school district in the nation. It also ranks 49th out of 50 in student performance. So my question is…why?

In the private sector, if you have poor performance, you would face either some kind of penalty or lose your job altogether. But not with teachers, who have the task of teaching our future people.

And like previously mentioned, the unions did fuck the whole thing up. They push for raises when other people are getting laid off, losing their job, or having to take a cut. Why are they exempt? Why are government workers immune from the ill effects of a horrible economy?

The private sector has absorbed much more than government, and it’s pure bullshit. Salaries, pensions, and benefits that are downright obscene, have bankrupt this state, and will certainly do the same to states who follow suit. It is a mathematical certainty.

18

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I know my sister has a masters degree. She has been teaching for 10 years and is making 55K approx per year with a 4% increase every year. She works 180 Days per year, but she is a very good teacher. I’m not hating on her. BUT there are other teachers who I know are making 60, 70K salary who have been teaching for 40 years.

They do horrible jobs, and there is no way to get rid of them. I am ok with the people who have been working as teachers for 20 years or less. They generally have a better education and work hard. It’s the teachers who started in the 60’s teaching who are still there.

Lets be clear about one more thing. 180 days per year is a part time job. MANY teachers pick up secondary jobs, like on a golf course over the summer or doing construction etc… Seasonal jobs that they can pick up and throw another 10 or 15K into thier pocket. My brother in law teaches summer school for example. So the teachers salary average of 45 or whatever is basicaly for a part time job.

my .02

V[/quote]

If you adjust that number of 55k/180 days, that becomes 110k/year roughly. If you adjust 70k/school year, it turns into about 93k/year. When you put these work numbers on equal levels of jobs that are a full year, its not so bad.

19

The teachers union is out of control, we have some elementary school teachers in my area making 75-k to 85-k (HH does that strike you as a bit excessive for a third grade teacher?) and as was mentioned earlier they’re working about half the year.

In addition to this their benefits are off the charts great especially regarding anything medical. To top it all off it’s virtually impossible top fire a bad teacher. Teachers (are currently) part of the problem not part of the solution. Let’s end the strangle hold that teachers have on the education system, the union should be busted.

20

I hate unions as much as anyone. But remember, at the high school level, the knowledge doesn’t change much. For ex, Algebra is Algebra.

So…superintendents would fire older teachers and replace them with newbies, to save money. Everyone knows this so teachers would leave the moment they got a different position. We had schools full of newbie teachers and older ones looking to flee. Tenure and unions were a response to this.

If school districts had treated their staff fairly and not simply tried to fuck them at every opportunity, unions wouldn’t have been created.

I don’t know what the solution is. I love teaching passionately but am close to the end of the finish line. I wish everyone a lotta luck… you’re going to need it.