RI Superintendent to Fire All Teachers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The reason we don’t have vouchers in most of the country is the extreme opposition from the teachers’ unions.

HH keeps ducking the question of just how it is that supposedly these unions are fighting government monopoly, because of course the answer is that the unions (not each individual teacher) are fundamentally crooks feeding off of the public trough and are absolutely insistent on continuing to do so, rather than having teachers compete in a free marketplace.

The latter would of course result in far better education.

There are any number of private schools that do phenomenal jobs with 50-70% of the money per student that is burned through by the government schools. [/quote]

Bill, you don’t understand you see HH is against all unions that do not pay him a great deal of undeserved money.

I think that sums it up.

No?

202

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]tme wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Also, I know a few teachers. None of them are even remotely worried about putting a roof on their house or replacing a road weary car. They are more concerned with tax shelters, which neighborhood they are going to upgrade to, and what features they would like on their next new car.[/quote]

My wife’s a teacher, and we either need to move to whatever district these figments of your imagination teach, or you’re a fucking liar.

I’m going with B.

[/quote]

Without thinking much, I’m able to recall about several teachers in NJ that are either family or friends, and NONE make less than 50k per year.

Most of those are in the 60-70’s with the accompanying cadillac bene’s. There’s not much disparity between PA/MD/DE/NY/NJ/CT. Skyzyyzyks claim is not in the least bit outrageous.

A two income teacher family can easily gross a six-figure income with a hefty pension plan.

Edit:

NJ: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary

PA: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Pennsylvania-teacher-salary [/quote]

My wife has been teaching for about 15 years, has a masters, and makes about 60k. No that’s not a bad living, but we aren’t getting rich from it either. We use my insurance because her plan sucks. I don’t understand why so many people begrudge teachers - who are mostly well educated and work in a fairly high stress environment - a fair wage. We aren’t looking to upgrade to a bigger house, our minivan has 130k on it and we hope to get 200k before we have to replace it. Our only tax shelters are our IRA accounts. If she teaches for another 10 years we might be able to retire without having to work as Walmart greaters, but we aren’t going to be buying vacation homes and traveling the world either.

I know, I know.. “they only work half the year!” That’s bullshit. Yeah my wife gets roughly two months off in the summer, but she still works more hours over the course of the year than I do. She sits at the kitchen table until midnight several nights a week grading, and spends lot of time on weekends prepping and planning. There is always training in June after school is out, and teachers report a week early for training and classroom setup in August.

203

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

If someone says that unions and monopoly government are two sides of the same coin (repeatedly) and somehow you construe this to be that that someone is an ardent supporter of unions, then, quite frankly, you are deranged.

[/quote]

Yawn.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj30n1/cj30n1-8.pdf

Public school employee unions are politically partisan and polarizing
institutions. Of the National Education Associationâ??s $30 million
in federal campaign contributions since 1990, 93 percent has gone to
Democrats or the Democratic Party. Of the $26 million in federal
campaign contributions by the American Federation of Teachers, 99
percent has gone to Democrats or the Democratic Party (Center for
Responsive Politics 2009).

Teachers unions actively and disproportionately contribute to the ‘more government’ party.

Additionally, teacher unions consistently oppose anything related to moving toward ‘school choice’ for families.

I can’t tell if you’re serious, or playing a really bizarre devil’s advocate, but your insistence that teachers unions do not contribute to and further enable government powers in education (thereby perpetuating the so-called ‘monopoly’) is absurd.[/quote]

You atre arguing with the voices in your head.

If you have a quasi monopoly employer you will have a union.

This unions existence depends on there being a monopoly.

Teachers will support them anyway because they would rather see you get fucked then bend over themselves.

That is exactly what you and anybody else would do and even if you wouldnt they would negotiate in your name anyway.

These unions are not the problem.

They are the inevitable outcome of a society that wants single payer education.

Obviously some people like it so much that they want single payer health care too and then say hello to doctors and nurses unions.

Whether you think that is good, bad or a bright orange is entirely irrelevant, as long as there is the need for such unions there will be such unions, and yes, they like the system exactly the way it is.

204

My wife has been teaching for about 15 years, has a masters, and makes about 60k. No that’s not a bad living, but we aren’t getting rich from it either. We use my insurance because her plan sucks. I don’t understand why so many people begrudge teachers - who are mostly well educated and work in a fairly high stress environment - a fair wage.

We aren’t looking to upgrade to a bigger house, our minivan has 130k on it and we hope to get 200k before we have to replace it. Our only tax shelters are our IRA accounts. If she teaches for another 10 years we might be able to retire without having to work as Walmart greaters, but we aren’t going to be buying vacation homes and traveling the world either.

I know, I know… “they only work half the year!” That’s bullshit. Yeah my wife gets roughly two months off in the summer, but she still works more hours over the course of the year than I do. She sits at the kitchen table until midnight several nights a week grading, and spends lot of time on weekends prepping and planning. There is always training in June after school is out, and teachers report a week early for training and classroom setup in August.

[/quote]

Your wife must work at a school that has above average grades. Your wife is the exception and not the rule. I agree that teachers do not work “part time,” but there are teachers that do. Unions help reward mediocrity, but the teachers that really care hold themselves to a higher standard. When the hard working teachers finally get fed up and revolt against the crappy teachers that is when education and pay will get better.

205

You’re not correct that existence of a union depends on there being a monopoly with regard to employment.

There are many unions in the US whose workers have any number of private employers to choose from.

206

tme, I don’t know how many times I have to type this: My wife is a teacher as well as about half of our cumulative family, as well as many of our friends, whom I (we) love very much, and in fact are wonderful teachers (yes, even the ones who actually support their union).

I don’t “begrudge teachers”. Of course, I can’t speak for anyone else. However, I don’t condone any attitude (teachers or otherwise) of entitlement.

If your avatar info is correct, you’re in Wyoming, which, I know nothing of the ‘teaching climate’ there. However, in the northeast, especially NY/NJ/CT/MA, the unions are a large political force more than anything, and millions of people do a lot worse salary wise than government teachers.

re: working after hours-- boo hoo, I spend a lot of weekends and evenings debugging computer code because my job depends on it. I spend a lot of ‘off’ hours in an airplane because my job requires it. I don’t get paid overtime and I don’t get two months off in the summer and I don’t complain.

I’m only responding to this since you ‘quoted’ my post.

207

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
You’re not correct that existence of a union depends on there being a monopoly with regard to employment.

There are many unions in the US whose workers have any number of private employers to choose from.

It is true however that in that situation, unions are not able to negotiate the same degree of protection for worthless employees.[/quote]

Noone claimed that the “existence of a union depends on there being a monopoly with regard to employment.”

The claim was that in a system where there is one huge employer, a quasi monopoly, that a union becomes ncessary, because people want educaton for “free” and therefore do not want to be taxed to provide it.

208

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The reason we don’t have vouchers in most of the country is the extreme opposition from the teachers’ unions.

HH keeps ducking the question of just how it is that supposedly these unions are fighting government monopoly, because of course the answer is that the unions (not each individual teacher) are fundamentally crooks feeding off of the public trough and are absolutely insistent on continuing to do so, rather than having teachers compete in a free marketplace.

The latter would of course result in far better education.

There are any number of private schools that do phenomenal jobs with 50-70% of the money per student that is burned through by the government schools. [/quote]

I’ve answered your question many times. Once again, you are arguing with the fantasy in your head.

Re-read my posts and quit arguing with ‘Tyler’. Sheesh…

209

[quote]orion wrote:
This unions existence depends on there being a monopoly.[/quote]

I interpreted your statement as being intended as a general truth; if your intent was only that this particular union, but not unions in general, depends on that situation, then your statement is an opinion which I think is probably wrong due to the fact that so many other unions do not depend on such a monopoly, so why would this one.

Can you point out a reason why these teacher’s unions could not exist in a condition with a far greater number of private school employers, as would soon be the case were vouchers employed?

They couldn’t negotiate the same protection for those teachers that are worthless, and – heaven forfend – would probably have to compete in a free market with non-union teachers – but to say they couldn’t exist as unions is I think unwarranted and not consistent with experience of very many other unions.

210

ABC Video about Rhode Island teachers:

Parent (June Higgins) comment at about 1:00, concerning her daughter:

“With all this going on I hope she just decides to drop out…”

Now, we all have to admit, THAT ain’t the union’s fault! (and probably shows more insight into the district’s problems more than anything).

211

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]tme wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Also, I know a few teachers. None of them are even remotely worried about putting a roof on their house or replacing a road weary car. They are more concerned with tax shelters, which neighborhood they are going to upgrade to, and what features they would like on their next new car.[/quote]

My wife’s a teacher, and we either need to move to whatever district these figments of your imagination teach, or you’re a fucking liar.

I’m going with B.

[/quote]

Without thinking much, I’m able to recall about several teachers in NJ that are either family or friends, and NONE make less than 50k per year.

Most of those are in the 60-70’s with the accompanying cadillac bene’s. There’s not much disparity between PA/MD/DE/NY/NJ/CT. Skyzyyzyks claim is not in the least bit outrageous.

A two income teacher family can easily gross a six-figure income with a hefty pension plan.

Edit:

NJ: http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary

PA: http://teacherportal.com/salary/Pennsylvania-teacher-salary [/quote]
Not to jump on the HH bandwagon… How far do you think low 6 figures goes in NJ. My wife is a 3rd year teacher who makes 42,000 a year and has to pay for her benefits. I am a law enforcement officer and I made over 90,000 with overtime this year. We use my benefits and defer hers because mine are free for the time being. Due to the cost of real estate in this state(we bought pre bubble burst) even after the bubble burst, you can not touch a liveable home for under 240,000. We paid 290,000 for our house(1000 sq ft 3 bed 1 br on a 50x100 lot), throw in 2 car payments, the ridiculous cost of auto insurance in this state, utilities, homeowners insurance, flood insurance ridiculous property taxes, child care for my 2 1/2 year old and just general cost of living and we have just enough to scrimp into a savings account. Rent for a decent apartment in a decent town around here goes between 1300-1500 hundred.

I think the blame needs to be laid on the politicians and administrators not the rank and file employees. 3 superintendents, 12 principals and 19 vice principals in a a 4 school district is what the culprit is. Not the teacher with 75,000 in student loans. In this state it’s hard to get a teaching job with out dual certs in special ed and general ed plus specialization in a certain subject.

My wife has 6+ years of school, school loans of around 400 a month for the next 5 years(not to include the 400 we have paid for the last 4 years) then 200 a month for the next 5 after that. What would be a fair rate to pay my wife?

212

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The reason we don’t have vouchers in most of the country is the extreme opposition from the teachers’ unions.

HH keeps ducking the question of just how it is that supposedly these unions are fighting government monopoly, because of course the answer is that the unions (not each individual teacher) are fundamentally crooks feeding off of the public trough and are absolutely insistent on continuing to do so, rather than having teachers compete in a free marketplace.

The latter would of course result in far better education.

There are any number of private schools that do phenomenal jobs with 50-70% of the money per student that is burned through by the government schools. [/quote]

I’ve answered your question many times. Once again, you are arguing with the fantasy in your head.

Re-read my posts and quit arguing with ‘Tyler’. Sheesh…
[/quote]

Nowhere in your posts can I find acknowledgment that the teachers’ unions are fighting AGAINST ending of the government monopoly, but all kinds of statements that they are supposedly fighting the monopoly.

213

[quote]snipeout wrote:

I think the blame needs to be laid on the politicians and administrators not the rank and file employees. 3 superintendents, 12 principals and 19 vice principals in a a 4 school district is what the culprit is. Not the teacher with 75,000 in student loans. In this state it’s hard to get a teaching job with out dual certs in special ed and general ed plus specialization in a certain subject.

My wife has 6+ years of school, school loans of around 400 a month for the next 5 years(not to include the 400 we have paid for the last 4 years) then 200 a month for the next 5 after that. What would be a fair rate to pay my wife? [/quote]

You’ll get no argument from me that the government school system is top heavy in administration. That’s a no-brainer.

My wife and I are from New Jersey and most of our family lives there. I’m very familiar with the political and economic climate of the state, so your points aren’t lost on me.

re: Certs – who drives those certifications?

re: Cost of living – you deserve the government you elect. Campaign harder for change.

re: Fair salary – I’m a software developer with close to 17 years of experience in my field heavy in layoffs and little hiring going on in this economic climate. I also have 6+ years of education including graduate school and still have student loans. I don’t belong to (or need) a union and don’t get the option of tenure. I’m employed at the whim of my employer. What’s a fair rate to pay me in New Jersey?

214

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The reason we don’t have vouchers in most of the country is the extreme opposition from the teachers’ unions.

HH keeps ducking the question of just how it is that supposedly these unions are fighting government monopoly, because of course the answer is that the unions (not each individual teacher) are fundamentally crooks feeding off of the public trough and are absolutely insistent on continuing to do so, rather than having teachers compete in a free marketplace.

The latter would of course result in far better education.

There are any number of private schools that do phenomenal jobs with 50-70% of the money per student that is burned through by the government schools. [/quote]

I’ve answered your question many times. Once again, you are arguing with the fantasy in your head.

Re-read my posts and quit arguing with ‘Tyler’. Sheesh…
[/quote]

Nowhere in your posts can I find acknowledgment that the teachers’ unions are fighting AGAINST ending of the government monopoly, but all kinds of statements that they are supposedly fighting the monopoly.[/quote]

Bill, does the remora ever fight the shark? Does the tick ever fight the host?

215


Here’s a graphic illustrating the glorious battle of the Teacher’s Union “fighting” the 'Government Monopoly".

It’s an EPIC battle.

216

Orion and HH are hitting the nail on the head. For some reason others on this thread ignore their common sense posts.

I’m bowing out. I don’t think this is a debate so much as it is people looking for one group to demonize rather than a way forward.

217

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Orion and HH are hitting the nail on the head. For some reason others on this thread ignore their common sense posts.

I’m bowing out. I don’t think this is a debate so much as it is people looking for one group to demonize rather than a way forward.

[/quote]

So, then, you agree with them that strengthening a union that further enables the ‘monopoly’ that they are supposedly fighting for the express purpose of demanding ever increasing wages and benefits to themselves is the best way to fight/beat said monopoly and improve a failing government educational system?

218

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Not to jump on the HH bandwagon… How far do you think low 6 figures goes in NJ. My wife is a 3rd year teacher who makes 42,000 a year and has to pay for her benefits. I am a law enforcement officer and I made over 90,000 with overtime this year. We use my benefits and defer hers because mine are free for the time being. Due to the cost of real estate in this state(we bought pre bubble burst) even after the bubble burst, you can not touch a liveable home for under 240,000. We paid 290,000 for our house(1000 sq ft 3 bed 1 br on a 50x100 lot), throw in 2 car payments, the ridiculous cost of auto insurance in this state, utilities, homeowners insurance, flood insurance ridiculous property taxes, child care for my 2 1/2 year old and just general cost of living and we have just enough to scrimp into a savings account. Rent for a decent apartment in a decent town around here goes between 1300-1500 hundred.

I think the blame needs to be laid on the politicians and administrators not the rank and file employees. 3 superintendents, 12 principals and 19 vice principals in a a 4 school district is what the culprit is. Not the teacher with 75,000 in student loans. In this state it’s hard to get a teaching job with out dual certs in special ed and general ed plus specialization in a certain subject.

My wife has 6+ years of school, school loans of around 400 a month for the next 5 years(not to include the 400 we have paid for the last 4 years) then 200 a month for the next 5 after that. What would be a fair rate to pay my wife? [/quote]

Your wife should earn $15,000 per year, get no benefits, and you should have to live in a trailer park. And the fact that you don’t, that a UNION said that the people who believe that stuff SUCK, means that you are evil and out to drain the public.

There should only be monopoly schools where teachers bust their asses for 18 hours per day (for the 15k, doncha know). She should spend years getting an education and running up lots of student loans but work for minimum wage, so guys like Bill and Steely can save $100 per year in taxes.

This’ll work just fine. Lots of people will be thrilled to become teachers, especially the brightest and the best.

(And to Bill: I have answered your question many times. Unions and monopoly schools are both sides of the same coin. And if you think unions will give up any power while monopoly schools are still in place means that you are delusional.)

219

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
There should only be monopoly schools where teachers bust their asses for 18 hours per day (for the 15k, doncha know). She should spend years getting an education and running up lots of student loans but work for minimum wage, so guys like Bill and Steely can save $100 per year in taxes.
[/quote]

OK, HH, you win. Remember this post next time you complain about Obama-- you know, the guy who the unions bent over backwards to elect.

Good show.

220

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]snipeout wrote:

I think the blame needs to be laid on the politicians and administrators not the rank and file employees. 3 superintendents, 12 principals and 19 vice principals in a a 4 school district is what the culprit is. Not the teacher with 75,000 in student loans. In this state it’s hard to get a teaching job with out dual certs in special ed and general ed plus specialization in a certain subject.

My wife has 6+ years of school, school loans of around 400 a month for the next 5 years(not to include the 400 we have paid for the last 4 years) then 200 a month for the next 5 after that. What would be a fair rate to pay my wife? [/quote]

You’ll get no argument from me that the government school system is top heavy in administration. That’s a no-brainer.

My wife and I are from New Jersey and most of our family lives there. I’m very familiar with the political and economic climate of the state, so your points aren’t lost on me.

re: Certs – who drives those certifications?

re: Cost of living – you deserve the government you elect. Campaign harder for change.

re: Fair salary – I’m a software developer with close to 17 years of experience in my field heavy in layoffs and little hiring going on in this economic climate. I also have 6+ years of education including graduate school and still have student loans. I don’t belong to (or need) a union and don’t get the option of tenure. I’m employed at the whim of my employer. What’s a fair rate to pay me in New Jersey?[/quote]
Whatever the going rate is for someone in your line of work. Just a few quick questions… Can you walk into your employers office on any given day and ask for a raise? Ask to cut out early because you stayed late last week? Can you receive performance based bonuses? Do you receive a bonus at any time of the year? What is your value to society as opposed to the teacher molding the people who are the future of society?

The pendulum has probably swung to far in the other direction as to who has control wrt unions. My wife started at 37,000 and takes 12 years to reach the top step of around 73,000 dollars. Even though every one of her students with IEP’s has passed the NJ ask and all other standardized tests as well as their subjects she still makes her set pay.