Research Before Asking Questions

Off Topic
84

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
You described what led you to make a personal decision and there isn’t anything wrong with that. What I do see wrong with your attitude is the fact that now you seem upset that the rest of the world doesn’t follow your lead.
[/quote]

I am upset that the forum is not what it once was. Were you around years ago when numerous bb’ers, strongmen, and powerlifters posted? Most of them left because of the 160 lb. douchebags.

If more people refused to suffer fools on this forum, we could have advanced discussions. More people who have actually accomplished things would be around to share their experiences.

Do you NOT want a forum comprised of successful people?

85

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
Professor X wrote:
That is the effect of telling some ridiculous newbs who aren’t serious to go to hell. Sometimes that is needed. Holding everyone’s hand just gets your hands dirty.

True enough. No argument there. I just think some take it to an unnecessary extreme.
[/quote]

I agree. The same three guys who answer every stupid question (what is ZMA? what should I eat before bedtime?) need to be less extreme. They should only answer questions where it’s obvious the OP has put in some leg work before asking.

That is what you meant, right?

86

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
I need friends more than enemies. That newb might be able to help me out someday in the off topic forums. No point in pissing in his cornflakes.
[/quote]

People posting to the forum about creatine aren’t real estate moguls, successful businesspersons, or other Type A people who can answer your off-topic questions. I am confident that the people asking stupid questions are utter losers in whatever field they work in.

Type A people tend to think for themselves and research issues before asking questions. Those are the people I want at the T-Mag forums.

87

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
I am upset that the forum is not what it once was. Were you around years ago when numerous bb’ers, strongmen, and powerlifters posted? Most of them left because of the 160 lb. douchebags.

If more people refused to suffer fools on this forum, we could have advanced discussions. More people who have actually accomplished things would be around to share their experiences.

Do you NOT want a forum comprised of successful people? [/quote]

It’s a little arrogant to assume you’ll still be included in the discussions, don’t you think?

I kid… I kid…

88

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
You described what led you to make a personal decision and there isn’t anything wrong with that. What I do see wrong with your attitude is the fact that now you seem upset that the rest of the world doesn’t follow your lead.

I am upset that the forum is not what it once was. Were you around years ago when numerous bb’ers, strongmen, and powerlifters posted? Most of them left because of the 160 lb. douchebags.

If more people refused to suffer fools on this forum, we could have advanced discussions. More people who have actually accomplished things would be around to share their experiences.

Do you NOT want a forum comprised of successful people? [/quote]

Cali, I see your point to an extent, but you have to remember the site and forums were far less known at that time more underground if you will. Mainly underground “hardcore” types sharing info and such and what you remember as the golden age.

More word of mouth exposure, more people finding their way to the site and we have a lot of newbies coming in asking what to us are pre-school questions. If a question is so elementary it’s seems foolish to answer a good link to Vroom’s beginners thread with a gentle prompting of get to reading is similar to your protein test.

Take care,

D

89

[quote]jwillow wrote:
For me at least, it’s a matter of not looking like an idiot. That’s why I research before asking questions.
[/quote]

It’s more a matter of principle than something related to personal behaviour. I might be one of the researchers too, but why imposing the requirement on others?

90

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
Professor X wrote:
That is the effect of telling some ridiculous newbs who aren’t serious to go to hell. Sometimes that is needed. Holding everyone’s hand just gets your hands dirty.

True enough. No argument there. I just think some take it to an unnecessary extreme.

I agree. The same three guys who answer every stupid question (what is ZMA? what should I eat before bedtime?) need to be less extreme. They should only answer questions where it’s obvious the OP has put in some leg work before asking.

That is what you meant, right?[/quote]

Listen, there is a Beginners section. Just for them. So they can ask all the stupid questions they want. One section out of many. How that brings down the validity of the entire site is beyond me. If they bring their “stupid” questions to a forum not designed for their “stupid” questions, then you have an argument in my book and flame away.

You created a thread to bash stupid newb questions in the Off Topic forums. A topic that has been covered before. That, in my opinion, is extreme. I agree with some of your points and would have agreed with you more if you jumped on your soap box with this thread in the beginners section.

Your approach in these forums is a constant negative. If this is a representation of how you are in all of your day to day interactions, I feel sorry for your neighbors.

If you don’t want to deal with unmotivated newbs, then stay out of the Beginners section.

91

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
Listen, there is a Beginners section. Just for them. So they can ask all the stupid questions they want. One section out of many. How that brings down the validity of the entire site is beyond me. If they bring their “stupid” questions to a forum not designed for their “stupid” questions, then you have an argument in my book and flame away.
[/quote]

I was going to post the same basic thing, before I saw that MaloVerde beat me to it.

The problem is that there is conflicting advice. As Professor X pointed out, you need a firm foundation of basic knowledge before you can even evaluate the accuracy of answers you are given. The advantage of a forum filled with knowledgeable people is that you can ask what works in specific circumstances, and you can compare the arguments and counter-arguments of people who have done well.

Part of the problem (and part of the reason people react so viscerally to this topic) may be that the term “research” is ambiguous. Certainly, asking “will protein make my liver explode?” is answerable with a minimum of research.

But asking “how well has supplement X worked for you,” or “I’m carb intolerant, should I do Y?” may not be so easy to research. You may have done some research, and want to get more feedback.

When I ask questions, I don’t list all of the conflicting research I’ve read on the topic. Maybe I should, I don’t know. I asked a question about gynoid fat distributions, and I did some research on the issue. I read some material about Yohimbine. I didn’t want to guide the answers I would receive by mentioning it. Perhaps that is my own mistake.

92

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
MaloVerde wrote:
I need friends more than enemies. That newb might be able to help me out someday in the off topic forums. No point in pissing in his cornflakes.

People posting to the forum about creatine aren’t real estate moguls, successful businesspersons, or other Type A people who can answer your off-topic questions. I am confident that the people asking stupid questions are utter losers in whatever field they work in.

Type A people tend to think for themselves and research issues before asking questions. Those are the people I want at the T-Mag forums.[/quote]

Sheesh, you’re quite a piece of work.

You’re “confident that the people asking stupid questions are utter loser in whatever field they work in”?

If the above statement typifies the character of the kind of people who “should” be part of T-Nation, then I fear for T-Nation… because of nation of jackasses is a nation which, I, at least, could do without.

From whence comes that venomous disdain? Did a guy who asked dumb questions beat you up and steal your lunch money when you were little?

There’s a guy at my gym who’s quick to offer help to anyone. If he sees someone lifting incorrectly, he’ll politely tell them that their form is wrong and he’ll tell them why. He’ll suggest exercises, and if he see someone doing something that he’s never seen before, he’ll go over and ask about it for his own edification.

He’s not one of the trainers (he knows more than all of the trainers at the gym put together than multiplied by a thousand)… he just likes lifting and wants to help others too. That’s it.

Ideally, if anything, I think that is what T-Nation (or any site, really) should be about.

Even smart people ask stupid questions. Researchers of metacognition have put forth the theory of multiple intelligences as a way to explain why someone who is brilliant in one field might suck (and spectacularly at that) in another. So no, asking a stupid question in one field, doesn’t more someone an utter loser in their potentially unrelated field of work.

93

Everyone starts out stupid…

94

[quote]jjoseph_x wrote:

There’s a guy at my gym who’s quick to offer help to anyone. If he sees someone lifting incorrectly, he’ll politely tell them that their form is wrong and he’ll tell them why. He’ll suggest exercises, and if he see someone doing something that he’s never seen before, he’ll go over and ask about it for his own edification.

He’s not one of the trainers (he knows more than all of the trainers at the gym put together than multiplied by a thousand)… he just likes lifting and wants to help others too. That’s it.

Ideally, if anything, I think that is what T-Nation (or any site, really) should be about.
[/quote]

I’m not quite sure where you live, but most experienced lifters will tell you that many of the lifters in the gym today wouldn’t even listen to any advice if someone just walked up to them out of the blue. Many would even get offended. That is one reason I keep to myself unless someone approaches me directly.

Look at the several posts in that “poor advice” thread where these guys are laughing at people who told them the RIGHT thing to do. That is the prevailing attitude out there now. every skinny newbie with an internet connection thinks they are more experienced than people who outweigh them by 60lbs of muscle.

It is like some of you are arguing simply because Cali-Law wrote the initial post…in spite of the overall message being correct.

95

[quote]vroom wrote:
Everyone starts out stupid…[/quote]

Everyone starts out uninformed. “Stupid” is a completely different matter.

96

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Everyone starts out uninformed. “Stupid” is a completely different matter.[/quote]

True… but I’m sure most people know what I meant. :wink:

–

Anyhow, there is another related issue. While I can easily get tired of questions that could be answered with a few moments of effort, I do think there is a problem with CLaw’s mindset.

Uninformed people are asking questions. Should our attitude be to drive them out, so that they forever remain uninformed, or instead attempt to persuade them to go find the details they need or otherwise drop hints?

Research is a skill of sorts. Like any skill, if you’ve simply relied on shortcuts (asking dumb questions) instead of learning it, then there will be a bit of a barrier to get over to change your behavior.

CLaw seems to feel anyone without skills similar to his is inherently worthless and not wanted. That seems way too harsh… given that we’re talking about people just starting to get into the lifestyle.

We all start out uninformed and without skills. We all, theoretically, have the ability to adapt and change that state. Sometimes it takes a nudge, sometimes a kick in the ass, and sometimes it takes a nuke.

97

[quote]vroom wrote:

Uninformed people are asking questions. Should our attitude be to drive them out, so that they forever remain uninformed, or instead attempt to persuade them to go find the details they need or otherwise drop hints?[/quote]

Isn’t that what is going on? I may be sarcastic as hell, but in that same post is the point to do a freaking search. Like the guy who asked about the handheld fat tester…AGAIN a few weeks ago, I even posted the links to 5 of the previous threads (some in less than a month previous) that had been asked on them. Why should anyone waste even that much time when the topic has been discussed on this board so many times that it is plain stupid to retype the info as if it hasn’t?

[quote]

CLaw seems to feel anyone without skills similar to his is inherently worthless and not wanted. That seems way too harsh… given that we’re talking about people just starting to get into the lifestyle.[/quote]

I could care less what C-Law wants and don’t really care about that first post at this point. Hasn’t the discussion evolved a little past that? I think people SHOULD research a topic before they jump on a website for the very first time and simply start asking questions. How does that not make sense?

It is 2007. Creatine has been on the market for 30 years. Should we really pretend like the topic doesn’t have a telephone book’s worth of info on this website in past threads? We truly have to guide someone to do a search? Isn’t that really just a little dumb as fuck?

98

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is like some of you are arguing simply because Cali-Law wrote the initial post…in spite of the overall message being correct.[/quote]

I agree with some of his points but it’s his constant negative presentation. I equate his “presentation” in this thread as equal to the idiot who posted that his worm died. A pathetic, self righteous attention whore.

99

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It is like some of you are arguing simply because Cali-Law wrote the initial post…in spite of the overall message being correct.

I agree with some of his points but it’s his constant negative presentation. I equate his “presentation” in this thread as equal to the idiot who posted that his worm died. A pathetic, self righteous attention whore.

[/quote]

That’s fine. I may even agree with that. However, I also agree that we shouldn’t just give stupid lazy people a pass all of the time and pretend like the search button doesn’t exist.

100

[quote]vroom wrote:
Uninformed people are asking questions. Should our attitude be to drive them out, so that they forever remain uninformed, or instead attempt to persuade them to go find the details they need or otherwise drop hints? [/quote]

You act like these people who log on and start asking about ZMA and creatine are in it for the long haul. Those people are precisely the type of people who will not even be training in six weeks, let alone several years.

101

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I also agree that we shouldn’t just give stupid lazy people a pass all of the time and pretend like the search button doesn’t exist.
[/quote]

Then don’t.

Problem Solved

102

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
I agree with some of his points but it’s his constant negative presentation. I equate his “presentation” in this thread as equal to the idiot who posted that his worm died. A pathetic, self righteous attention whore. [/quote]

I would love nothing more than to be less “negative.” When people stop posting about creatine, BMI, Tanita scales, ZMA, meal frequency, and bedtime nutrition, I’ll chill the frock out.

103

[quote]Professor X wrote:
jjoseph_x wrote:

There’s a guy at my gym who’s quick to offer help to anyone. If he sees someone lifting incorrectly, he’ll politely tell them that their form is wrong and he’ll tell them why. He’ll suggest exercises, and if he see someone doing something that he’s never seen before, he’ll go over and ask about it for his own edification.

He’s not one of the trainers (he knows more than all of the trainers at the gym put together than multiplied by a thousand)… he just likes lifting and wants to help others too. That’s it.

Ideally, if anything, I think that is what T-Nation (or any site, really) should be about.

I’m not quite sure where you live, but most experienced lifters will tell you that many of the lifters in the gym today wouldn’t even listen to any advice if someone just walked up to them out of the blue. Many would even get offended. That is one reason I keep to myself unless someone approaches me directly.

Look at the several posts in that “poor advice” thread where these guys are laughing at people who told them the RIGHT thing to do. That is the prevailing attitude out there now. every skinny newbie with an internet connection thinks they are more experienced than people who outweigh them by 60lbs of muscle.

It is like some of you are arguing simply because Cali-Law wrote the initial post…in spite of the overall message being correct.[/quote]

You’re right a lot of people won’t listen if someone walks up to them and gives them good advice… but some do.

I remember that there was a kid who was doing BB curls with way too much weight (it looked like he was doing a good morning). The trainer at the gym was pointing it out to another lifter and said “I should tell him something but he’s young and dumb and probably wouldn’t listen anyhow”.

The guy that I was talking about earlier went to the kid and told him that he was lifting too much weight and that he should really watch his form. And, surprise, surprise, the kid actually listened.

I don’t doubt that, in most cases, most people would have blown him off and kept wrecking their backs… but at least he tried and it worked. If the kid didn’t, the guy would probably have never offered him any advice again.

I don’t disagree that people should research before asking questions if possible… but if they don’t, I don’t think that they’re worthless idiots.

Maybe, Biotest could force new users to only have write access to the beginner forums for the first x weeks or months and put some articles in there on searching and references to a bunch of existing articles that deal with frequently asked questions (like Vroom’s compliation).

That way people who don’t want to deal with beginners won’t have to. At the same time, the beginners will be able to learn the ropes and figure out how to use the site to learn stuff on their own.

It’s only a suggestion and it’s far from a perfect solution… but it beats the heck out of simple berating them until they pack-up and go.