Koing, you’re gonna be like him. I’m sure you’ll win some big competition to have an excuse to show your new developed 45 inch VJ 
[quote]douglas16 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Ghost22 wrote:
I’ve been told I’ve got a pretty decent jump.
I’ve got over a 2X bw squat.
I’ve a pretty crap jump.
I’ve got over a 2x bw squat.
That sums it up.
In what way does that sum it up?
Don’t necessarily need one to do the other. The two can compliment each other, but it isn’t essential. (Examples? See above)
[/quote]
Yes but the quoted statements seem to imply that squatting will not help your jump. To jump higher, almost all athletes, especially young athletes, need to get stronger.
You can be pretty weak and still jump high if you’re tall and have good levers. I believe the vertical jump is largely a measure of your genetics while someone who has slightly less than average genetics but trains hard and trains right can have an impressive box jump and long jump.
i have 35inch true standing vert and i cant squat 2xbw my running vert is 38 and on the track team im on there is a guy with a 42inch vert its a running one but still its crazy and he is tall and skinny and cant squat for crap i know because the track team works out together so i dont think squating or even strength is always the determining factor.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
You can be pretty weak and still jump high if you’re tall and have good levers. I believe the vertical jump is largely a measure of your genetics while someone who has slightly less than average genetics but trains hard and trains right can have an impressive box jump and long jump. [/quote]
1.) Nobody with an exceptional vertical leap is weak, they just may not be able to display that strength in a squat.
2.) Your second statement doesn’t even make sense. So by training hard you can increase your box jump but not your vertical leap?
[quote]AssClown wrote:
You always hear about the need for maximal strength to be able to jump high or run fast, and I was thinking to myself “how much do you need to squat to propel a __lb man up 30 inches?” I’ve never seen a study on this before, but I’ve been looking and haven’t found anything. Anyone know of any articles or anything to that nature? General theories?[/quote]
My general theory is that if you want to jump high and run fast without being limited by your maximal strength you should legitimately squat 3x bodyweight.
That’s not to say you can’t run really fast or have a jaw-dropping vertical without it - technique and genetics count for a lot, I just feel that if you can consistently squat 3x BW that you are “strong enough”. With that your strength should not limit your technique and training. Going far past that point though doesn’t seem to yield great returns, and in the case of people over 100kg, may not even be possible.
When talking about leaping ability, the most important aspect is the quality of the jump. This only happens through thousands of repeated explosive jumps, bounds, hops, etc…
Take anyone from the age of 12 through 18 that has a vertical jump over 30 inches and I would be suprised if 1% could squat double bodyweight.
Squatting heavy helps with jumping in that it develops a great deal of fast twich muscle fiber, in a movement pattern similar to jumping, and while that alone does not replicate the nervous demands of leaping, provides a structure that can, with proper training, be modified into a more explosive application. The amount of transfer depends on the individual, but I would argue that slow but consistent improvements weight training as well as moderate 2-3 hours a week of basketball, or a range of plyometric intensities and exercises is the most ideal way to increase leaping ability.
I will say though, that refining speed off the floor is a fine skill, and though sometimes raw power can make up for poor spring off the floor, it will never totally make up for it. People that jump in this way usually are those that jump out of the gym but do not perform well in games because they lack the skills of the game as well as the fine skill of jumping, in that it is not a quick, smooth, natural movement, but a labored, muscling up of the body.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Ghost22 wrote:
I’ve been told I’ve got a pretty decent jump.
I’ve got over a 2X bw squat.
I’ve a pretty crap jump.
I’ve got over a 2x bw squat.
That sums it up.
In what way does that sum it up?[/quote]
The correlation isn’t there. If you want to be a better jumper you need to do much more than squat. Setting an arbitrary goal in the squat is not the way to improve jumping.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Ghost22 wrote:
I’ve been told I’ve got a pretty decent jump.
I’ve got over a 2X bw squat.
I’ve a pretty crap jump.
I’ve got over a 2x bw squat.
That sums it up.
In what way does that sum it up?
The correlation isn’t there. If you want to be a better jumper you need to do much more than squat. Setting an arbitrary goal in the squat is not the way to improve jumping.[/quote]
I never implied that. I don’t want to turn this into a flame war, because you seem to generally know what you’re talking about but I would ask you (as well as anybody else weighing their thoughts in this thread) if you have been involved in either coaching yourself to jump higher and especially if you have been involving in training other athletes to help improve vertical leap?
There most certainly is a correlation between squatting and jumping. Is it .99? No not at all. However, take two kids with about the same body structure and test their vertical leap. More often than not, the kid who has a higher vertical will be able to squat more after a few sessions getting proficient at the squat. Likewise, take two kids with same body structure and test their squat and more often than not, the kid who has a higher squat will have a higher vertical, provided they are a reasonably proficient jumper. So there is a correlation there, although not as strong as in some other exercises, which is why squatting is GPP for any athlete but a powerlifter or weightlifter.
People get mixed up because the body type that makes a good squatter is basically the opposite of what makes a good jumper. A good natural jumper tends to have a longer lower leg, shorter muscle bellies and more slender hips whereas the body type for a squatter tends to be the opposite in all three categories. So you can’t make a total comparison there.
The squat is not everything, not by a long shot. I totally agree with your statement that setting an arbitrary goal in the squat is not the way to go. It’s not important to squat more weight for the sake of squatting more weight. But the training effect that squatting has can be very helpful. As I mentioned before, squatting is GPP for a team sport athlete and you certainly could figure out a way to increase somebody’s vertical without squatting. However, I think to deny the usefulness of the squat in helping build an athlete’s overall explosive power (and thus vertical leap) would be foolish.
I’m as flatfooted as a duck and my calves are as tight as a midget virgin. This means I can barely jump over a tic tac.
I can oly squat close to 2xBW. I see that strength has little to do with your vertical. As others have said, it has more to do with leverages, build, etc.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
…
The squat is not everything, not by a long shot. I totally agree with your statement that setting an arbitrary goal in the squat is not the way to go. It’s not important to squat more weight for the sake of squatting more weight. But the training effect that squatting has can be very helpful. As I mentioned before, squatting is GPP for a team sport athlete and you certainly could figure out a way to increase somebody’s vertical without squatting. However, I think to deny the usefulness of the squat in helping build an athlete’s overall explosive power (and thus vertical leap) would be foolish.[/quote]
I agree with you. I would never discourage someone from squatting and think it is a very important tool for any athlete. Getting hung up on a target like 2x bodyweight can be a big mistake.
He should do plyos like depth and box jumps and also work on his squat. If he was already squatting 2x bw I might have him shoot for more. (Or back away if it was taking a lot out of him so he could expend that energy jumping) If he was squatting considerably less than 2 x bw I would not tell him he is required to squat 2 x bw in order to have a good jump. Talk about discouraging!
When it comes to training being stronger is always better but shooting for an arbitrary goal in any particular lift should not come at the expense of training for the real goal.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
…
The squat is not everything, not by a long shot. I totally agree with your statement that setting an arbitrary goal in the squat is not the way to go. It’s not important to squat more weight for the sake of squatting more weight. But the training effect that squatting has can be very helpful. As I mentioned before, squatting is GPP for a team sport athlete and you certainly could figure out a way to increase somebody’s vertical without squatting. However, I think to deny the usefulness of the squat in helping build an athlete’s overall explosive power (and thus vertical leap) would be foolish.
I agree with you. I would never discourage someone from squatting and think it is a very important tool for any athlete. Getting hung up on a target like 2x bodyweight can be a big mistake.
He should do plyos like depth and box jumps and also work on his squat. If he was already squatting 2x bw I might have him shoot for more. (Or back away if it was taking a lot out of him so he could expend that energy jumping) If he was squatting considerably less than 2 x bw I would not tell him he is required to squat 2 x bw in order to have a good jump. Talk about discouraging!
When it comes to training being stronger is always better but shooting for an arbitrary goal in any particular lift should not come at the expense of training for the real goal.
[/quote]
Agreed on all accounts!
I thought I read on some article that most people with good verticles squat 1.5x their bodyweight shortly after learning how to squat.
[quote]mldj wrote:
Koing, you’re gonna be like him. I’m sure you’ll win some big competition to have an excuse to show your new developed 45 inch VJ :)[/quote]
The goal is 40" @ 85kg
I saw this lifter my weight, a bit shorter, C&J 170Kg but he jumped lower then me. I was SHOCKED at his ability to smash out a ridiculous jump! But he has power, 130/170Kg @ 85Kg in competition also.
My bro could jump higher then him.
Weight is a MASSIVE function of vertical hight.
Theres this guy on youtube, something like KADOR OR KADOUR, he has CAN KICK A BASKETBALL HOOP WITH HIS FOOT! He has a sick vertical, I think at least 47 or 48" vertical jump.
Koing
[quote]flightposite wrote:
i have 35inch true standing vert and i cant squat 2xbw my running vert is 38 and on the track team im on there is a guy with a 42inch vert its a running one but still its crazy and he is tall and skinny and cant squat for crap i know because the track team works out together so i dont think squating or even strength is always the determining factor.[/quote]
They probably don’t practice squats that much wheres he has been running and jumping for years!
SKINNY helps him jump high. He sounds like a good all around athlete that hasn’t been squating much. But when he does he probably squtas up fast out of the hole and not grinds a squat out.
Koing
[quote]Chewie wrote:
I’m as flatfooted as a duck and my calves are as tight as a midget virgin. This means I can barely jump over a tic tac.
I can oly squat close to 2xBW. I see that strength has little to do with your vertical. As others have said, it has more to do with leverages, build, etc. [/quote]
You got videos of the speed of your squats? Speed out of the squat is a MASSIVE contributor to how you jump.
If your tight all over that will limit your ability to jump and squat.
Koing
I think the main thing with good jumpers with ‘medicore’ squats is that they DO NOT SQUAT THAT OFTEN!
I’m willing to bet, if they did they would get there % up. BUT instead they are busy jumping in their sports etc.
I also read that every extra 2lbs of weight/ fat your carrying will shorten your vertical by at least 0.5cm. I REALLY can’t remember where I read this, but has somebody else read it also?
Kadour Ziani worlds highest vertical Crazy DUNKER!!5’ 9" vertical …
Kadour Ziani is 5’9, pretty dam skinny! He has an OBSCENE vertical jump. He has practiced 10000’s of times but is also a freak of nature…
Koing has repeated what I would say about 1000 times. Speed of the squat. All of these “natural jumpers” that people seem to quote as evidence that the squat isn’t important (nevermind that the majority of these people are the exception) would blast a squat up for about a second and then fail because they have no ability to hold onto tension.
If you increase your squat 20 pounds but the duration of the lift goes from 5 seconds to 7 seconds, you probably aren’t going to jump higher. If you increase your squat 20 pounds but the duration goes from 5 seconds to 4.5 seconds…
[quote]Koing wrote:
I think the main thing with good jumpers with ‘medicore’ squats is that they DO NOT SQUAT THAT OFTEN!
I’m willing to bet, if they did they would get there % up. BUT instead they are busy jumping in their sports etc.
…[/quote]
Agreed
Vertical Jump is determined by multiple factors.
1.Body composition
You need to be freaking lean to have a high vertical. Under 10% BF is mandatory to fly.
2.Relative Strength
With Strength I refer to your strength in either the Back Squat or (preferibly) the Box Squat. I prefer the Box Squat because while doing the back squat, you will still bounce out of the bottom portion of the movement. When doing the box squat, you will really flex out of the bottom portion. This means you need more pure strength. With Relative I mean strength relativ to your bodyweight.
3.Technique
You need the right technique to jump high vertically.
This means if you want a high vertical jump you need to be a lean, jacked, 2-3xbw box squatting athlete. Then you will jump high. Period.