AL,
i was refering to the historical sources that supposedly cite christ’s actual existence, not so much california middle school textbooks. sorry for not being clear enough.
jason
austin, tx
Don’t we all agree the T-Mag staff is pretty smart? They know their stuff. They have used the Bible in various articles as a history source. They trust the history of the Bible because it’s valid, it even predicted things before they happened. Why would it lie about the other stuff? In a day and age where churches beckon on every corner, crying “I am the truth”, yet each saying a different thing about the Bible, we have to rely on something more stable than our own logic and
reasoning, for trusting in our own carnal discernment will only lead us to confusion. If we know the voice of Jesus, it will not matter what diverse doctrines and critiques are thrown our way. Should we seek to interpret the Bible ourselves? Or to wade through the tides of “which church is right”? Or should we go to Him that wrote the Bible, and seek Him out, listening until we hear His voice and recognize it clearly? Only then can we successfully wage war with Satan, the author of confusion, because a house divided against itself cannot stand.
Erik said it for me.
who cares about all this crap? go lift!
Naturalman: Consider for a moment that the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ means the manifestion of God in an individual human form. It’s the unfoldment/expression of Christ in you and others, and it happens all the time to varying degrees. Jesus may/may not “come back” to live a lifespan in one individual as “the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily”. But, the Christ spirit is certainly manifesting continually now, in many forms. Consider the uncle that wrestled the shark to get the boys arm. Was Christ manifesting there? I think so. Let’s not judge that He did it physically instead of mentally, standing on the shore. It was a glorious thing. Does it matter if the uncle was black, white, christian, jew, buddist, or even a so-called atheist? NO! Our petty dogmas and racial opinions can’t stop the Activity of Christ (Jesus) when It wants to manifest. And its a good thing! Sometimes we argue about semantics and nomenclature when we mean the same thing. How many languages are spoken on earth? Dozens? Is the color “red” less “red” when its called by another word? Of course not, but there is the matter of degrees. But if it moves and breathes and exhibits Christlike qualities (Love, Power, Intelligence, Abundant Supply, Health, Harmony, Beauty, etc.)then we’ve got the 2nd coming of Christ right in front of us, and I won’t dis It as Being something less. As for the “FULLNESS of Christ Bodily” throughout a lifespan, as an earthly spiritual leader, I get the nagging feeling that It’s already here, but expressing through many as a whole, not a single individual claiming “I am the One”. Our task is to wake up and realize it.
i have to say i’m on the fence.i struggle with this alot. a couple of things that keep me here are christians themselves,zealots, and some of my observations.i do believe in evolution. i think maybe(unless i’m completely wrong)the appendix is a good ex. of evol. to my understanding, this organ was used to help in the digestion of raw meat. we no longer eat raw meat, so we really don’t use it,there for we don’t need it. if i’m wrong(which i may just be)let me know.most people in church drive me insane. i’ve met some very religous ppl who are such hypocrits and out right liers,but think they’re ok. i think jesus was saying don’t openly or deliberately sin, yet they do. like homosexuals who are christians.they openly sin every night knowing it’s against what god wants.cheating on your wife, something that happened in the heat of the moment, and that you regretted afterwards can be forgiven. i don’t think they were talking about knowingly and openly sinning thinking everything will be ok as long as you ask forgiveness.the homosexual thing is another story. i don’t think it is natural, even though it happens in nature.my two dogs, both male will try it, but if i female were around it would be a different story. men in prison don’t usually consider themselves gay even though they have had anal sex with another man.i thinks it’s a form of release for them. the whole reason for sex is procreation and we know thats not going to happen that way. i mean, when was the last time you heard of self help groups geared towards helping you deal with your heterosexuality?i feel there is a small % of people that are gay because of genetics but that most are gay/lesbian because of a trauma or stigmatism.many things about the bible confuse me also, but then we’re given the excuse we’re not meant to understand. well why not? wouldn’t we be more willing if we did understand?why did god change his mind from the old testament to the new? he knew it wasn’t going to workout.
i have always felt that religions were developed to create fear.what else was there to keep man in line?i feel religion was developed to create(or at least try to)law and order.but with all my doubts there is still part of me that says"what if you’re wrong".
It was inevitable that this thread was going to turn into a pissing contest, as in my-beliefs-are-better-that-your-beliefs. Let’s all throw some more hate around and talk about politics!
I just want to thank hetyey for starting this thread. What a brilliant idea.
A religion is simply a belief or set of beliefs. If your belief or set of beliefs are centered around loving your neighbor as yourself, then your religion has no hate within it.
jason…I would have to disaggree with you regarding the burdon of proof… but rather than argue about it I will do my best to satisfy. Yes, my argument for God’s existance goes way back to the beginning of all things that exist. I actually steel my philosophy from Augustine/Aristotle. Each effect has a cause. i.e. each instance leads to the next instance. You can’t have now with out before (you get the picture). Following cause and effect relationships back to its origins, it does not make logical sense that this is infinate, otherwise there is no origin. Aristotle asserted the because no form of logic supports an infinate regress. In infinate regress is a logical fallacy. To combat this logical inconsistancy Aristotle asserted that there must must be a first cause an unmoved mover…hence this would be God.
More simply put, theists belive that everything came from something, atheists believe that everything came from nothing…So using standard inductive reasoning, it is more logical for something to come from something rather than asserting that something comes from nothing…hence an argument for the existance of God. This theory is not perfect, but I think it’s pretty good over all. Obviously, the ramifications of this argumant can go in all different directions. So…jason, it is your turn, prove there is no God.
Next, it does stand to reason that one can go through life and not reap what they sow…I.E. people who suffer for the greater good, or people who live off the pain of others and never see the fruits of their actions in their life times. In that respect an after life is appealing. While you may live with consequences of your actions…some people get away with little or no consequences…This does not prove an after life, nor was it suppose to. It merely asserts a purpose for the afterlife, not necessarily that it exists…Sort of a cashing in.
I hope this addresses some of your concerns…I could go on, but that would be droning…
Well, spanky! You seem to have not gotten over yourself. This post was initiated as a debate, not “well girls, lets all sit around and write statements that agree with one another” My statement was that religion is fine and the basics of what the RC faith stand for are good, but the church is run by man and has become perverted (I may have to expand on that word for you little Dre… twisted). As a point I used the RC church. Women are not allowed to be priests…how does that equate to everyone being equal? Where in the bible does it say not to use birth control. Sex is one of life’s pleasures, I cannot believe that something so beautiful could be wrong if it’s not used only for procreation? All the wars fought in the name of God… bullshit…it was at the hand of man using God as an excuse. Men that are put at the head of the church gain power, and power corrupts! My point was that I don’t know if there is a god, But one thing I don’t believe in is the church…any church! As you can see Dweb… I mean Dre, I was only making a couple of points and asking some questions. Some of it was positive, Who are you, to attempt to chastise me for responding to a post? It wasn’t even your’s. I love this site and read all of it mostly for the diet and training education, all the other stuff is just better entertainment than TV (don’t get excited Dre… I didn’t mean TV as in transvestite). Anway I apologize to other readers about being off course to stick up for myself, Note to Dre (spanky), Don’t go anywhere, I find you very entertaining.
jason…I would have to disaggree with you regarding the burdon of proof… but rather than argue about it I will do my best to satisfy. Yes, my argument for God’s existance goes way back to the beginning of all things that exist. I actually steel my philosophy from Augustine/Aristotle. Each effect has a cause. i.e. each instance leads to the next instance. You can’t have now with out before (you get the picture). Following cause and effect relationships back to its origins, it does not make logical sense that this is infinate, otherwise there is no origin. Aristotle asserted the because no form of logic supports an infinate regress. In infinate regress is a logical fallacy. To combat this logical inconsistancy Aristotle asserted that there must must be a first cause an unmoved mover…hence this would be God.
More simply put, theists belive that everything came from something, atheists believe that everything came from nothing…So using standard inductive reasoning, it is more logical for something to come from something rather than asserting that something comes from nothing…hence an argument for the existance of God. This theory is not perfect, but I think it’s pretty good over all. Obviously, the ramifications of this argumant can go in all different directions. So…jason, it is your turn, prove there is no God.
Next, it does stand to reason that one can go through life and not reap what they sow…I.E. people who suffer for the greater good, or people who live off the pain of others and never see the fruits of their actions in their life times. In that respect an after life is appealing. While you may live with consequences of your actions…some people get away with little or no consequences…This does not prove an after life, nor was it suppose to. It merely asserts a purpose for the afterlife, not necessarily that it exists…Sort of a cashing in.
I hope this addresses some of your concerns…I could go on, but that would be droning…
As much as I enjoy discussing religion, this is not my venue of choice, face to face is generally much more productive. Anyways I just wanted to say that, JB, you are smart, and you made some very good points, and I just wanted to add a few things. First of all I certainly don’t believe in the big bang, it is just a bit too ludicrous for my taste, but everything being created from nothing, breaking natural laws can theoretically be possible by virtue of Anti-matter, that being that their are equal amounts of Matter and Anti-matter, which across the universe could cancel out everything leaving nothing, which could easily come from nothing, which means we would only kind of exist. I was also wondering if anyone knows how we all got here, when as far as I know, Adam and Eve had two children, Cane and Abel, two boys, then Cane killed Abel, who did Cane hook up with to create all of us? And lastly, JB I would appreciate it if, you did try to explain the expansion of the Universe, that one can put in a coma for days trying to understand it. I’m just gonna sit here now and think about how incredible everything everywhere is. Good Day
Lots of good stuff here. Won’t change my views either way, but it’s an interesting discussion. For those of you who need the scientific stuff to prove the existence of God and creation, try the “Reasons to Believe” website. I think it’s at www.reasons dot org. Some heavy stuff there, but it might answer a few questions.
JW…NEver, not once, not even close. Evolution has never been proven to be science fact. It is a theory, period. If you base all your beliefs on evolution as science fact, then my friend you have been misled. Evolution still has many, many holes in it… There are to many things missing for it to be ‘fact’. I do believe in evolution, but I can see it’s short commings as well. There is no scientist anywhere that will say evolution is science fact, it’s impossible to prove. Truely, on the greater sceme of things, it does not have a much in the way of concrete evidence…it’s mainly anecdotal. ie. This creatudre looks like that creature so they must be related. That’s weak logic. Find me absolute proof that evolution is science fact and thats how all life evolved (no theories please, facts only). Give me it’s true origin then I will follow your religious philosophy.
John 17:15-16 “I pray not that thou should talke them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.” That is only an excerpt. Read from the start of the chapter. Jesus is speaking specifically of the Apostles that are soon to start teaching the “good news” after his death. He asks that they be protected from the evil of the world in verse 15. He refers to them as being not of this world because their lives will now be spent teaching of the next world. And because of their message, many of this world will hate them. Where were some of you guys when Jason B. was dissing the jewish faith? Why didn’t some of you guys agree with Jason then? I myself don’t, but alot of you guys seem to have the same hatred of someone else’s faith. Hey if you’re not Christians fine! But why sit here and start tearing apart something many of you just don’t understand. I will refuse to reply to this post anymore. It was a setup post so one person could start a pissing on christians contest. Sorry het, but I really believe this.
Whatever…Shit happens.
This by far has to be the most boring, inane thread I have ever fucking seen on any bodybuilding board.
Oh wait there was another religious thread at another board last week that was just as boring.
Just reading this makes me start to beleive maybe there is something appealing about this satan guy.
MBH… I agree 100 percent!! We don’t need a bunch of rules to tell us how we should behave. Rather, we need God’s life so we can really live. Thanks for your comments. J
Bill, you said - “NO FIRST HAND HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF JESUS SUPPOSED EXISTANCE.” - This is absolutely false, there are many. For an excellent list, as someone mentioned Josh McDowell’s book is excellent. An easier to read book that has similar content is “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel (it’s only about 12 bucks). He gives good reason Biblically and extrabiblically for believeing Jesus was who he said he was and did what he said he would do. It is evidence not blind faith. By the way Strobel is a former atheist.
johnny quick - you assert the Bible has many contradictions in it and give a small list. To paraphrase Augustine; If we find an error in the Bible, it’s not the Bible of God that has made a mistake. It is us. Further more most (or all) purported “contradictions” are either mis understandings of the text, the context of the text, the meaning of the translation, or the logical deduction or induction from it. A book Written by Norman Geisler - (When Critics Ask) - goes over all of the “contradictions” you point out and hundreds more which you probably never thought of. With a PHD in philosophy and a MS in theology he does a nice job of logically deducing and explaing many of the misconceptions of the Bible. His book “A Brief Introduction to the Bible” is also an excellent read. Or to get most all of his writings in a single volume (albeit condensed) you could purchase the Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics. However, it is not a light read at all, and cost about 50 bucks.
Please weight the evidence before asserting emotional beliefs.