These writers, who lived at the time that Jesus supposedly lived, left a library
of Jewish and Pagan literature, in which not one mention of Jesus or of his apostles or his disciples appears: Arrian, Plutarch,
Apollonius, Hermogones, Appian, Damis, Aulus Gellius, Appion of Alexandria, Philo Judaeus, Petronius, Juvenal, Quintilian, Silius
Italicus, Phlegon, Pausanias, Dio Chrysostom, Favorinus, Seneca, Dion Pruseus, Martial, Lucanus, Statius, Phaedrus, Florus Lucius,
Columella, Lysias, Theon of Myrna, Pliny the Elder, Paterculus, Persius, Justus of Tiberius, Epictetus, Ptolemy, Valerius Maximus,
Quintius Curtius, Valerius Flaccus, and Pomponius Mela. McDowell cites Otto Betz, author of What Do We Know About Jesus?
(1968) as concluding that “no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus” (p. 9). Betz is either disingenuous
or unaware of the work of Charles F. Dupuis, Robert Taylor, David F. Strauss, Kersey Graves, John M. Robertson, Thomas Whittaker,
Robert Arthur Drews, Peter C. A. Jensen, William B. Smith, L. Gordon Rylands, P. L. Couchoud, and John E. Remsburg.
I see a few people in these posts that are tangling over Bible verses. That’s understandable. It’s not a real ‘easy read’. Remember, its also a compilation of many books written by many different authors. Naturally, there are discrepancies. I like some chapters (authors) over others because of the writers personality. I also think the guy that wrote Revelation had to have been describing a LSD trip. It can be helpful to read books ABOUT the Bible. A good one about the Gospels is “The Universe Within You” by Eric Butterworth. The Bible was very confusing to me until I read that book. I’m sure there are others.
im going to further comment on this but let me just say now (no time) that you cannot prove or disprove Gods existence or evolution. For those of you speaking about science … to prove something scientifically requires that what is being proven be repeatable. (thats the nature of experimentation) so obviously you can neither prove an evolutionary beginning or prove God. You cant measure that. On the topic of faith, related to proof, for those of you that mock the idea of having faith - what does faith mean to you? believing in something with no proof? well if i have faith that God does exist, which i most certainly do, you have have faith that God does not exist, since you cannot prove either way that he does or does not. you are the same, you just believe (have faith) in something different
I think its interesting that some ppl seem to need religion, as I dont, it irrelivant sillyness to me, cool looking churches tho eh?
Erik - I agree. Think of the tremendous amount of faith a true atheist must have! A lot of believers are the way they are because they have had some experience that proved to them that there is a God. They “know that they know” and nothing any atheist says is going to convince them otherwise. Most people “on the fence” simply haven’t experienced a situation that proved to them otherwise.
Question and a comment. Atheists require no faith at all, their’s is the simplest position to deffend (I don’t see it so what makes you think it is there?). A question to the theologically inclined, where in any of the books is God’s condemnation of homosexuality, and is it only male homosexuality. A quote and the book, verse ect. would be great. Thanx.
A few yrs ago I read an interesting book called “Everything You Know Is Wrong: Book One:Human Origin” by Lloyd Pye. (llyodpye.com). He presents an alternative to the traditional Evolutionism vs Creationism debate. He calls it Rationalism, based on evidence and reasoning rather than secular authority or devine revelation.
Pye raises some intresting questions such as why we humans have some 4000 genetic defects when our primate relatives like gorillas and chimps, who Darwinists claim we evolved from, have only a few? And why are we so pathetically weak compared to them? Why, after some 4 million yrs on this planet, are humans so poorly adapted to sunlight? Know any other species that gets sunburn? Finally, he addresses the pyramids. Says there’s know way humans could have built those. Egyptoligists cannot account for the laying of 7 stones (weighing hundreds of tons!) every hour every day for 100 yrs straight! No union breaks, no days off, no down time of any kind–just one stone, precision cut, fitted into place every 8.5 minutes. A feat which modern engineering cannot duplicate, with all its technology.
I agree that the religion debate can be a bore, and this is not the forum for it. Just wanted to plug the book. It is intersting to ponder the possibility that Darwinists and Creationists may BOTH be wrong.
For everyone who doesnt believe in God, Jesus etc. and for those Christians who are struggling to find answers and confidence to continue believing. I recommend reading the following by C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity, Miracles, The Problem of Pain. Small books - 10$ or so a pop and will save all of us some time on this thread as many of the objections brought up here are mentioned in one of these books.
Nice post Johhny Quick. I was going to do the same thing but you beat me to it. It is beyond belief that all of those authors alive at the supposed time of Jesus christ would ignore him completely. If did exist, woke the dead, walked on water, healed the sick, died and rose from the dead 3 days later, you can bet your BCAA’s people would have wrote about it, at the time it occured not 140 years later.
To Bibleguy, Earl Doherty the author of the Jesus Puzzle and jesus seminar member, rips Lee Strobel and his book the Case for Christ to shreds. Strobels book is not worth the paper it is printed on.
I cannot understand why, in the 21st century, people still believe in these superstitions.
Bill, it’s understandable that a Jesus Seminar member would do that because in his book Strobel demonstrates the silliness with which the “scholarly” work of the Jesus Seminar was put together with. They used color beads to label their personal “feelings” of how accurate the Gospels were. They never took into account what most scholarship Christian and secular concludes about the dating of the Gospels, the vast number of early copies, the consistency of the copies etc. As for Johnny quicks list. This is what is silly, critics of Christianity call for rational thought and reason but don’t demonstrate in their critiques. There are contemporaries of Jesus who mention him. And even if the list of people he gave do not, how does that argument from silence prove or even give evidence for anything? Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Tactius, Lucian, the Babylonian Talmud, to name a few are non-Christian sources from the time of Jesus that mention him. For more information read Gary Habermas’s, The Historical Jesus.
JB and pat, i think that it’s very arrogant for anyone, atheists, christians, people writing on this post, to attempt to explain the origins of the universe or use it in anyway to support their arguments for their religious beliefs or lack there of. and pat, most times physics and nature in general does not follow philosophical reasoning. so reason with it all you want. it doesn’t change the fact that all that religion is based on is ‘someone saying so’. pat, it is beyond anyone’s capabilities (due to an intense ignorance) to either prove or disprove the existence of a god. i am not so pretentious as to think that i have the ‘proof’ that there is no god, and i think it’s rediculous, as i’ve said, for anyone to ‘prove’ that there is one. as for those that go through life with out suffering repercussions for what they’ve done in their life…okay. i assure that while they may not be receiving the ‘justice’ that in your eyes they deserve, they, in fact, are living a result of their decisions and actions.
and pat, don’t stop posting on this.
this isn’t bad discourse.
jason
austin, tx
Colin, atheists require no faith? its simple to say its not there becase they cant ‘see’ it? can you see love? justice? can you point it to me and say there it is? no you cant! just because you cant see something doesnt mean it doesnt exist. faith means believing without proof, and like i said you cant prove something doesnt exist simply because you cant it. so you have faith that God doesnt exist. in terms of the homosexuality comment, ill have to find it but im pretty sure its in Romans, among other places (Matthew maybe)
Colin, your verses on homosexuality
Leviticus 18:22 God forbids homosexual relationships
Leviticus 18:29 There is a penalty for homosexual sin
1 Kings 14:24 Homosexual practices are an abomination
Matthew 7:1 Pray for and witness to homosexuals
Romans 1:16-32 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consume with passion for one another.
“One would go mad if one took the bible seriously;but to take it seriously one must be already mad”-Aleister Crowley
I don’t believe in any “supreme being”. I believe that you’re born…you get old…you die…THE END.
All religions sound way to much like…utter nonsense to me (and yes, i was raised christian). About as believable as Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy. ONCE UPON A TIME…GOD SAID “POOF” AND THERE WAS. Nonsense
4th definition of “see” at dictionary.com
To understand; comprehend: I see your point.
An athiest argues “I do not see it (it is ostesibly non-existent) so it’s not there”. This requires no faith at all (in as much as to beleive in God, one must have faith) in fact, to the extent that one does not agree with this predicate, they have faith (“I am not sure why I should not smoke crack, but my mom says not to”) ← represents an amount (but not total) faith in one’s mom. Thus, atheism represents the position consistant with the absolution of faith. Thank you for the scripture.
Bible Guy, Merrian Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines contemporary as “happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time.” Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Tactius, Lucian, the Babylonian Talmud are not contemporaries. I can challenge and destroy anything you claim they said to corraborate JC’s existence. For more information read The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty. And if you want to discuss this topic, I cordially invite you to join us at
OK Dale - Im not around here on weekends ever but you got me back in here with that sig. Ill keep it short - you are the guy in the ezekiel quote in pulp fiction that “attempts to poison and destroy”. Think of Jackson speaking of having hands laid upon you cause thats what I and alot of people with faith and courage see happening to you FROM THE WORD GO. That is the fact now and until you wake up to yourself. We see you and your kind as being obliged to read the bible cover to cover “as a child” as it requires (and not some smart arsed critic) before you go around voicing negative opinions about it. Ditto any other aspect of religion or spirituality - dont knock it until you have tried it - properly that is. Once you have, you will stop the nonsense. Im still with T-Rev, debating such a topic is unhealthy (ie poison) as its a personal thing. I forgive you, for you know not what you do, but Id like you to make time to put a bit of work into yourself and your soul.
One point I will raise on this topic is this - consider that it is possible that religion/spirituality will improve your life here on earth. Seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive etc. In this context, I would be interested in a poll of the top 100 rich dudes, sports people, entertainers ETC to see if there was a correlation between “success” (however it was defined) and religious/spiritual belief. I must say alot of entertainers seem refer to God and Jesus alot (although its hard to say if its genuine). Another observation someone has passed on is that the USA was built on a christianity/in god we trust type thing and although it might be getting watered down now, the history and present of the USA is quite a success story of sorts.
Laura to Berzerken69
I DON’T AGREE!
And when you look up to the sky and see the sun,the moon and the stars -all the heavenly array-do not enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has
apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
Deuteronomy 4:19-BIBLE
"Watch out for false prophets.They come to you in sheep clothing but inwardly they are ferious
wolves. Matthew 7:15-BIBLE