To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
I wouldn’t really classify myself as a liberal though I wouldn’t put an abortionist on the same level as an axe murderer like you do.
Ah, and that is the rub. Abortion is murder to us, period. It is the deliberate taking of an individual human’s life. Now keeping that in mind, you can see why we find the condemnations of many atheists to be amusing. Not all, there surely are atheist pro-lifers. But, in general. How does one take these criticisms seriously, from those who defend–or at least refuse to oppose-- the premeditated murder of innocent human life? We can’t.
[/quote]
And this is the problem, the abortion was performed in order to save the life of a 9 year old child. The Brazilian Government (which is anti abortion) doesn’t see an issue with that. You see it as murder. You would rather see the girl die an agonising death than allow her an operation which protects her.
I do not support abortion as a birth control method. I do support the use of the pill and condoms. I also support the right of people to choose early term abortions in certain cases.
Most atheists base their decisions on rational ideals. Catholics deliberately suspend rationality in favour of following the Pope’s interpretation of a 1,500 year old badly translated collection of folk tales.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.[/quote]
The hypocrisy is in the fact that a mother trying to save her daughter is excommunicated whereas the rapist is not. Mind you, given the history of rape and child abuse by the Catholic Church I guess that is just par for the course.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Catholics deliberately suspend rationality in favour of following the Pope’s interpretation of a 1,500 year old badly translated collection of folk tales.[/quote]
Ah. See? This is what I’m talking about. It’s not that you’re outraged with how people regard another’s relgion. After all, to you we’re all irrational, bat-shit crazy, sheeple. It’s not the talk of Islam that bothers you. This is an opportunity to tackle them all, right? Don’t get me wrong, I admit it’s a good stragety.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.
The hypocrisy is in the fact that a mother trying to save her daughter is excommunicated whereas the rapist is not. Mind you, given the history of rape and child abuse by the Catholic Church I guess that is just par for the course.[/quote]
That’s not hypocrisy. It’s no secret that abortion, a pre-meditated act of murder, is an automatic excommunication. I don’t think you’re using the word correctly.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Catholics deliberately suspend rationality in favour of following the Pope’s interpretation of a 1,500 year old badly translated collection of folk tales.
Ah. See? This is what I’m talking about. It’s not that you’re outraged with how people regard another’s relgion. After all, to you we’re all irrational, bat-shit crazy, sheeple. It’s not the talk of Islam that bothers you. This is an opportunity to tackle them all, right? Don’t get me wrong, I admit it’s a good stragety.[/quote]
Yes, that is exactly my point, people in glass religions and all that.
Cockney, I have a section on Differentials to go through, followed by some Biology. Hate to cut and run on you!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.
The hypocrisy is in the fact that a mother trying to save her daughter is excommunicated whereas the rapist is not. Mind you, given the history of rape and child abuse by the Catholic Church I guess that is just par for the course.
That’s not hypocrisy. It’s no secret that abortion, a pre-meditated act of murder, is an automatic excommunication. I don’t think you’re using the word correctly.[/quote]
The hypocrisy is in claiming to have peaceful, loving, forgiving standards and then choosing to apply them to one group whilst first trying to cover up and then forgiving the Priests that are forcibly buggering small children.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney, I have a section on Differentials to go through, followed by some Biology. Hate to cut and run on you![/quote]
Good luck with that! I have to do the first section of my Six Sigma Yellow belt course (hence procrastinating on here.)
Religion: because clinging to guns without a bible is just half-assing it!
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
About the case itself, my thoughts on the matter is that a 9 year old girl is not likely to be capable of carrying the child to term and would likely die in the process. Hence, aborting the child to save the mother�¢??s life is allowed, since neither would likely survive anyway. If this were the case, which is a likely, but not definite scenario, then I believe the bishop�¢??s actions were wrong, but they are not with out recourse. They can plead their case to Rome. I would like to know more actual facts of the case and may look into it deeper if I have the time. The news media is seldom a good filter for news on the Catholic Church. It�¢??s the only institution they can bash with out fear of repercussions.
Second, most people have no idea what excommunication means. It�¢??s a big fancy word, but all it means is that a person or persons, are not allowed by the church to receive the sacraments until reconciliation has been made. That�¢??s it. It�¢??s not a tossing out of the church or forbidding the person to go to church or a guaranteed trip to hell. The excommunicated person just needs to reconcile�¢?�¦If the bishop is acting like an asshole, they can appeal directly to Rome. Bishops are human after all and they can make mistakes.
I agree that the news is not always the best filter however it seems to be good enough anytime anyone wants to attack any religion other than Christianity. The girl was carrying twins by the way.
And excommunication is denying the person the grace of God. If this is not a big deal, why bother taking the sacrement in church? You can’t have it both ways.[/quote]
No it is not, it is the removal of permission to receive the sacraments. If they go to a church and receive them there the church will be none the wiser. Second, only God can give his grace, the church cannot with hold it even if they wanted to, they can’t give it either for that matter.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Religion: because clinging to guns without a bible is just half-assing it![/quote]
Those are korans and those are AK 47’s, standard issue for your average islamic terrorist grunt.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.
The hypocrisy is in the fact that a mother trying to save her daughter is excommunicated whereas the rapist is not. Mind you, given the history of rape and child abuse by the Catholic Church I guess that is just par for the course.
That’s not hypocrisy. It’s no secret that abortion, a pre-meditated act of murder, is an automatic excommunication. I don’t think you’re using the word correctly.[/quote]
So is rape and child abuse. All grievous acts against another human being is an automatic excommunication, even if they received the holy orders. There was not now, nor ever any public or private acceptance of child abuse of any kind save for a few corrupt individuals…I am pretty sure most child molesters ain’t Catholic. I’d like to see a chart.
[quote]pat wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Religion: because clinging to guns without a bible is just half-assing it!
Those are korans and those are AK 47’s, standard issue for your average islamic terrorist grunt. [/quote]
I thought the writing was Hebrew and those are M16s.
Anyway, the joke is multicultural.
[quote]pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.
The hypocrisy is in the fact that a mother trying to save her daughter is excommunicated whereas the rapist is not. Mind you, given the history of rape and child abuse by the Catholic Church I guess that is just par for the course.
That’s not hypocrisy. It’s no secret that abortion, a pre-meditated act of murder, is an automatic excommunication. I don’t think you’re using the word correctly.
So is rape and child abuse. All grievous acts against another human being is an automatic excommunication, even if they received the holy orders. There was not now, nor ever any public or private acceptance of child abuse of any kind save for a few corrupt individuals…I am pretty sure most child molesters ain’t Catholic. I’d like to see a chart.[/quote]
Rape is clearly not an automatic excommunication, the rapist in the case has not been excommunicated. Neither have the hundreds of child rapists that Roman Catholic Church deliberately covered up.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.
The hypocrisy is in the fact that a mother trying to save her daughter is excommunicated whereas the rapist is not. Mind you, given the history of rape and child abuse by the Catholic Church I guess that is just par for the course.
That’s not hypocrisy. It’s no secret that abortion, a pre-meditated act of murder, is an automatic excommunication. I don’t think you’re using the word correctly.
So is rape and child abuse. All grievous acts against another human being is an automatic excommunication, even if they received the holy orders. There was not now, nor ever any public or private acceptance of child abuse of any kind save for a few corrupt individuals…I am pretty sure most child molesters ain’t Catholic. I’d like to see a chart.
Rape is clearly not an automatic excommunication, the rapist in the case has not been excommunicated. Neither have the hundreds of child rapists that Roman Catholic Church deliberately covered up.[/quote]
The church did not cover it up, certain people did, but this was not a church sanctioned cover up.
Hundreds? Do you have proof of this claim? A link or anything credible, not something from atheistuniverse.com or somebody who clearly has a bone to pick. Last I heard the numbers were double digits, one is to high, but let’s not exaggerate here.
I’d still be willing to be the vast majority of child rapists are atheists. Religious folk have done some bad things in history, but atheist are still the winners when it comes to crimes against humanity.
Care to discuss history of brutal murders carried out in the name of atheism…the numbers are in the millions and this is referencable in a million places.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
I wouldn’t really classify myself as a liberal though I wouldn’t put an abortionist on the same level as an axe murderer like you do.
Ah, and that is the rub. Abortion is murder to us, period. It is the deliberate taking of an individual human’s life. Now keeping that in mind, you can see why we find the condemnations of many atheists to be amusing. Not all, there surely are atheist pro-lifers. But, in general. How does one take these criticisms seriously, from those who defend–or at least refuse to oppose-- the premeditated murder of innocent human life? We can’t.
And this is the problem, the abortion was performed in order to save the life of a 9 year old child. The Brazilian Government (which is anti abortion) doesn’t see an issue with that. You see it as murder. You would rather see the girl die an agonising death than allow her an operation which protects her.
I do not support abortion as a birth control method. I do support the use of the pill and condoms. I also support the right of people to choose early term abortions in certain cases.
Most atheists base their decisions on rational ideals. Catholics deliberately suspend rationality in favour of following the Pope’s interpretation of a 1,500 year old badly translated collection of folk tales.[/quote]
I mean hell if you wanna pull out the logical fallacies, then by golly I know what I am up against. Folk tales, do you know that, were you a live when it happened. I know you do not have proof, I mean you look like some country boy who lives in Mexico so I doubt you are an expert on the validity of the Bible and the Catholic Doctrine.
This little blurb explains the thoughts of why abortion is punished by excommunication. You can disagree or agree with how the Catholic Church sees human life, but we personally see it as, as soon as conception happens, it is a person.
And this blurb explains the views of excommunication briefly. See the last sentence, what that is saying is that with excommunication it is a devise that is used by the Church to the followers of God to repent of their mortal sins. Once they do that they are allowed to take communion again. Which communion (community of the brothers and sisters of the Church) being very important and being needed, this does not take away the blessings of grace and forgiveness that God gives you. God gave those, his wife cannot take them away.
[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.
The hypocrisy is in the fact that a mother trying to save her daughter is excommunicated whereas the rapist is not. Mind you, given the history of rape and child abuse by the Catholic Church I guess that is just par for the course.
That’s not hypocrisy. It’s no secret that abortion, a pre-meditated act of murder, is an automatic excommunication. I don’t think you’re using the word correctly.
So is rape and child abuse. All grievous acts against another human being is an automatic excommunication, even if they received the holy orders. There was not now, nor ever any public or private acceptance of child abuse of any kind save for a few corrupt individuals…I am pretty sure most child molesters ain’t Catholic. I’d like to see a chart.
Rape is clearly not an automatic excommunication, the rapist in the case has not been excommunicated. Neither have the hundreds of child rapists that Roman Catholic Church deliberately covered up.
The church did not cover it up, certain people did, but this was not a church sanctioned cover up.
Hundreds? Do you have proof of this claim? A link or anything credible, not something from atheistuniverse.com or somebody who clearly has a bone to pick. Last I heard the numbers were double digits, one is to high, but let’s not exaggerate here.
I’d still be willing to be the vast majority of child rapists are atheists. Religious folk have done some bad things in history, but atheist are still the winners when it comes to crimes against humanity.
Care to discuss history of brutal murders carried out in the name of atheism…the numbers are in the millions and this is referencable in a million places.
[/quote]
The vatican sent a document to all Bishops detailing how to cover such cases up.
And as for numbers, the Church estimates it at roughly 5,000 so probably a lot more than that.
As for your claim that the vast majority of child rapists are atheist, any chance you could back that up? Given that atheists are for the moment in the minority in the population I doubt it very much.
The discussion of Atheist attrocities has been done to death. Yes there were a couple of individuals that committed horrific acts and espoused atheism however the reason the numbers killed were so high had nothing to do with atheism, it was to do with efficiency. There have been far more instances of attrocities in the name of religion.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
I wouldn’t really classify myself as a liberal though I wouldn’t put an abortionist on the same level as an axe murderer like you do.
Ah, and that is the rub. Abortion is murder to us, period. It is the deliberate taking of an individual human’s life. Now keeping that in mind, you can see why we find the condemnations of many atheists to be amusing. Not all, there surely are atheist pro-lifers. But, in general. How does one take these criticisms seriously, from those who defend–or at least refuse to oppose-- the premeditated murder of innocent human life? We can’t.
And this is the problem, the abortion was performed in order to save the life of a 9 year old child. The Brazilian Government (which is anti abortion) doesn’t see an issue with that. You see it as murder. You would rather see the girl die an agonising death than allow her an operation which protects her.
I do not support abortion as a birth control method. I do support the use of the pill and condoms. I also support the right of people to choose early term abortions in certain cases.
Most atheists base their decisions on rational ideals. Catholics deliberately suspend rationality in favour of following the Pope’s interpretation of a 1,500 year old badly translated collection of folk tales.
I mean hell if you wanna pull out the logical fallacies, then by golly I know what I am up against. Folk tales, do you know that, were you a live when it happened. I know you do not have proof, I mean you look like some country boy who lives in Mexico so I doubt you are an expert on the validity of the Bible and the Catholic Doctrine.[/quote]
Well as you can see the direct linkage between stories in the bible and stories in Egyptian, Greek and other mythologies then I think folk tales is a pretty accurate description. The bible was wholesale ripped off from stories that were around at the time. Then bits and pieces were made up to fill in the gaps and explain why certain groups should have rights over certain other groups.
You can call me a country boy if you like, I spent a lot of my childhood on farms. But then again I have also spent a lot of time living in large cities.
I have always been fascinated by religion and have read a lot on the origins of various religions. I wouldn’t call myself an expert though no.