[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Of course if Catholicism is totally made up, there is no God and no afterlife then there is nothing wrong with it. So for you Christians in the audience, which is it to be?
You’re asking if one should be able to repent and receive forgiveness? Yeah, sure. [/quote]
No, I am asking whether you believe that 9 year old girl’s soul has been correctly condemned to eternal damnation for the crime her mother committed.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Of course if Catholicism is totally made up, there is no God and no afterlife then there is nothing wrong with it. So for you Christians in the audience, which is it to be?
You’re asking if one should be able to repent and receive forgiveness? Yeah, sure.
No, I am asking whether you believe that 9 year old girl’s soul has been correctly condemned to eternal damnation for the crime her mother committed.[/quote]
Did you read the article?
I do happen to be Catholic. It’s pretty clear you are not. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, [b]except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[/b] [emphasis clearly mine]
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1463.htm
Anyway you are REALLY reaching here, trying to equate the modern day Church with Islam. You should chase a different rabbit, seriously.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.[/quote]
That’s the claim of Muhammad and the late Pope John Paul. Islam co-opts quite a bit in the Bible, but makes completely different claims. It doesn’t build on anything in the Bible, and Bible characters are only mentioned in passing and in much different ways. “Ibrahim” in the Qur’an is quite a bit different, whereas Judaism and Christianity affirm the same Old Testament:
This is essentially Islam in a nut-shell: all your prophets are belong to us. Now that Muhammad has come and gone, if you don’t believe in him, you’re not a Muslim and subject to jizya or death if you’re a Christian or Jew.
Islam is the religion of Muhammad, not YHWH. Whatever Muhammad did is codified as “good” in Islam.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I do happen to be Catholic. It’s pretty clear you are not. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, [b]except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[/b] [emphasis clearly mine]
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1463.htm
Anyway you are REALLY reaching here, trying to equate the modern day Church with Islam. You should chase a different rabbit, seriously.[/quote]
Well it depends. If Catholicism is a load of nonsense then no the modern day Church is not committing crimes anywhere close to as bad as Islam, they are just another bunch of hypocrites. If however there is truth in what Catholics believe then it is far worse.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Cortes wrote:
I do happen to be Catholic. It’s pretty clear you are not. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, [b]except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[/b] [emphasis clearly mine]
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1463.htm
Anyway you are REALLY reaching here, trying to equate the modern day Church with Islam. You should chase a different rabbit, seriously.
Well it depends. If Catholicism is a load of nonsense then no the modern day Church is not committing crimes anywhere close to as bad as Islam, they are just another bunch of hypocrites. If however there is truth in what Catholics believe then it is far worse.[/quote]
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Sorry.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Of course if Catholicism is totally made up, there is no God and no afterlife then there is nothing wrong with it. So for you Christians in the audience, which is it to be?
You’re asking if one should be able to repent and receive forgiveness? Yeah, sure.
No, I am asking whether you believe that 9 year old girl’s soul has been correctly condemned to eternal damnation for the crime her mother committed.
Did you read the article?[/quote]
I posted the fox news article so people here didn’t claim bias 
Let me find the Brazilian newspaper one where it states that the girl was also excommunicated.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Cortes wrote:
I do happen to be Catholic. It’s pretty clear you are not. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, [b]except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[/b] [emphasis clearly mine]
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1463.htm
Anyway you are REALLY reaching here, trying to equate the modern day Church with Islam. You should chase a different rabbit, seriously.
Well it depends. If Catholicism is a load of nonsense then no the modern day Church is not committing crimes anywhere close to as bad as Islam, they are just another bunch of hypocrites. If however there is truth in what Catholics believe then it is far worse.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Sorry.[/quote]
In liberal parlance, being a hypocrite ranks right up there with being A. Hitler. You can be an axe-murderer, an abortionist, or a fan of Commie death camps like Ayers and it’s ok. In fact, liberals will campaign for you and defend you. But if you’re a hypocrite, you deserve the scorn and opprobrium of the entire universe.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Edit: OK, seems like most of the reports state that just the mother and the doctors were condemned to an eternity of hellfire for protecting the life of a 9 year old child. The rapist of course still gets to repent and go to heaven.[/quote]
Ok, now that we cleared one thing up. The doctors and the mother aren’t “condemned to an eternity of hellfire.” First, the church doesn’t claim that power. Second, repentance and forgiveness haven’t been removed. This thread is based on the false premise that excommunication is a finality. On the contrary, excommunication is supposed to lead to repenting, which then leads to absolution. Abortion has been repented and forgiven an untold number of times. Indeed, there are groups dedicated to ministering to these people, helping them come to terms, and bringing them back into communion.
Abortion is an automatic excommunication, due to the killing of a human being. That is, it doesn’t have to even be pronounced, as soon as the act is committed one has removed oneself from communion. Now, the 9 year old isn’t excommunicated because the Church recognizes that not every human being is mentally capable to make judgements. Such ideas can be found in it’s writings.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Cortes wrote:
I do happen to be Catholic. It’s pretty clear you are not. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, [b]except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[/b] [emphasis clearly mine]
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1463.htm
Anyway you are REALLY reaching here, trying to equate the modern day Church with Islam. You should chase a different rabbit, seriously.
Well it depends. If Catholicism is a load of nonsense then no the modern day Church is not committing crimes anywhere close to as bad as Islam, they are just another bunch of hypocrites. If however there is truth in what Catholics believe then it is far worse.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Sorry.
In liberal parlance, being a hypocrite ranks right up there with being A. Hitler. You can be an axe-murderer, an abortionist, or a fan of Commie death camps like Ayers and it’s ok. In fact, liberals will campaign for you and defend you. But if you’re a hypocrite, you deserve the scorn and opprobrium of the entire universe. [/quote]
I wouldn’t really classify myself as a liberal though I wouldn’t put an abortionist on the same level as an axe murderer like you do. I just see a huge amount of hypocrisy in religion and a lot of disengenous arguments used to support one religion over another. I take it you can also see the hypocrisy in the church as instead of proving that it is not there, you claim that hypocrisy is not important.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Cortes wrote:
I do happen to be Catholic. It’s pretty clear you are not. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, [b]except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[/b] [emphasis clearly mine]
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1463.htm
Anyway you are REALLY reaching here, trying to equate the modern day Church with Islam. You should chase a different rabbit, seriously.
Well it depends. If Catholicism is a load of nonsense then no the modern day Church is not committing crimes anywhere close to as bad as Islam, they are just another bunch of hypocrites. If however there is truth in what Catholics believe then it is far worse.[/quote]
But you don’t believe this, so it still doesn’t make the actions of the modern Catholic Church anywhere near comparable to those of Islam. (But you know this, and you are just engaging in the typical goal-post moving that has come to characterize your particular style of “debate.”)
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Edit: OK, seems like most of the reports state that just the mother and the doctors were condemned to an eternity of hellfire for protecting the life of a 9 year old child. The rapist of course still gets to repent and go to heaven.
Ok, now that we cleared one thing up. The doctors and the mother aren’t “condemned to an eternity of hellfire.” First, the church doesn’t claim that power. Second, repentance and forgiveness haven’t been removed. This thread is based on the false premise that excommunication is a finality. On the contrary, excommunication is supposed to lead to repenting, which then leads to absolution. Abortion has been repented and forgiven an untold number of times. Indeed, there are groups dedicated to ministering to these people, helping them come to terms, and bringing them back into communion.
Abortion is an automatic excommunication, due to the killing of a human being. That is, it doesn’t have to even be pronounced, as soon as the act is committed one has removed oneself from communion. Now, the 9 year old isn’t excommunicated because the Church recognizes that not every human being is mentally capable to make judgements. Such ideas can be found in it’s writings. [/quote]
They are condemned to eternal hellfire until such a point as they agree that the Church was right that the 9 year olds life should have been risked by bringing twins to term.
And the fact that there is a special group set up to heap guilt on people who have already been through a horrific ordeal hardly makes matters better does it?
All I know is I’m not reading of too many Catholic suicide bombers.The particular tool that Islamic fundamentalists have chosen (and which is now their signature) to further their cause says all you need to know of them and their world view.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Cortes wrote:
I do happen to be Catholic. It’s pretty clear you are not. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, [b]except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[/b] [emphasis clearly mine]
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1463.htm
Anyway you are REALLY reaching here, trying to equate the modern day Church with Islam. You should chase a different rabbit, seriously.
Well it depends. If Catholicism is a load of nonsense then no the modern day Church is not committing crimes anywhere close to as bad as Islam, they are just another bunch of hypocrites. If however there is truth in what Catholics believe then it is far worse.
But you don’t believe this, so it still doesn’t make the actions of the modern Catholic Church anywhere near comparable to those of Islam. (But you know this, and you are just engaging in the typical goal-post moving that has come to characterize your particular style of “debate.”)
[/quote]
I don’t believe this but, if you are a Catholic, you do.
About the case itself, my thoughts on the matter is that a 9 year old girl is not likely to be capable of carrying the child to term and would likely die in the process. Hence, aborting the child to save the motherâ??s life is allowed, since neither would likely survive anyway. If this were the case, which is a likely, but not definite scenario, then I believe the bishopâ??s actions were wrong, but they are not with out recourse. They can plead their case to Rome. I would like to know more actual facts of the case and may look into it deeper if I have the time. The news media is seldom a good filter for news on the Catholic Church. Itâ??s the only institution they can bash with out fear of repercussions.
Second, most people have no idea what excommunication means. Itâ??s a big fancy word, but all it means is that a person or persons, are not allowed by the church to receive the sacraments until reconciliation has been made. Thatâ??s it. Itâ??s not a tossing out of the church or forbidding the person to go to church or a guaranteed trip to hell. The excommunicated person just needs to reconcileâ?¦If the bishop is acting like an asshole, they can appeal directly to Rome. Bishops are human after all and they can make mistakes.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
I wouldn’t really classify myself as a liberal though I wouldn’t put an abortionist on the same level as an axe murderer like you do. [/quote]
Ah, and that is the rub. Abortion is murder to us, period. It is the deliberate taking of an individual human’s life. Now keeping that in mind, you can see why we find the condemnations of many atheists to be amusing. Not all, there surely are atheist pro-lifers. But, in general. How does one take these criticisms seriously, from those who defend–or at least refuse to oppose-- the premeditated murder of innocent human life? We can’t.
And as Sloth points out, even the title of this thread is wrong. You assumed the Church was condemning a 9 year old girl and her mother to hellfire for eternity, and ironically, specifically use the word “forgiveness” as if this is supposed to highlight Her hypocrisy, when the actual facts of the matter are nothing of the sort. Now which of us is it creating fantasy dream worlds around here?
Once again, you were WAY too quick to pull the trigger (ahem, snort) on this one. You should just let this thread sink and go back to prevaricating about crime in England.
[quote]pat wrote:
About the case itself, my thoughts on the matter is that a 9 year old girl is not likely to be capable of carrying the child to term and would likely die in the process. Hence, aborting the child to save the motherâ??s life is allowed, since neither would likely survive anyway. If this were the case, which is a likely, but not definite scenario, then I believe the bishopâ??s actions were wrong, but they are not with out recourse. They can plead their case to Rome. I would like to know more actual facts of the case and may look into it deeper if I have the time. The news media is seldom a good filter for news on the Catholic Church. Itâ??s the only institution they can bash with out fear of repercussions.
Second, most people have no idea what excommunication means. Itâ??s a big fancy word, but all it means is that a person or persons, are not allowed by the church to receive the sacraments until reconciliation has been made. Thatâ??s it. Itâ??s not a tossing out of the church or forbidding the person to go to church or a guaranteed trip to hell. The excommunicated person just needs to reconcileâ?¦If the bishop is acting like an asshole, they can appeal directly to Rome. Bishops are human after all and they can make mistakes.
[/quote]
I agree that the news is not always the best filter however it seems to be good enough anytime anyone wants to attack any religion other than Christianity. The girl was carrying twins by the way.
And excommunication is denying the person the grace of God. If this is not a big deal, why bother taking the sacrement in church? You can’t have it both ways.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
They are condemned to eternal hellfire until such a point as they agree that the Church was right that the 9 year olds life should have been risked by bringing twins to term.
And the fact that there is a special group set up to heap guilt on people who have already been through a horrific ordeal hardly makes matters better does it?[/quote]
Stop it. The Church can’t condemn anyone to hell. Unrepentance can. A deliberate act followed by a refusal to repent. Both are choices of the individual.
Your last comment pretty much tells me the underlying objection. Which is, that we’re not a pro-abortion Church in the first place.
“Good to see you. How was your week?”
“Eh, I had an abortion. Still a bit sore.”
“Yeah, my second one was pretty rough. So hey, after church, swing by for some lunch.”
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
And excommunication is denying the person the grace of God. If this is not a big deal, why bother taking the sacrement in church? You can’t have it both ways.[/quote]
Actually, we’re not supposed to take communion if we’re in a state of mortal sin. Excommunicated or not. We all have to repent first.