Religion of Forgiveness (Now with 25% More Hypocrisy)

Cockney_Blue · October 28, 2009, 10:47pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
direct abortion, willed as an end or as means, as well as cooperation in it. Attached to this sin is the penalty of excommunication because, from the moment of his or her conception, the human being must be absolutely respected and protected in his integrity;

This little blurb explains the thoughts of why abortion is punished by excommunication. You can disagree or agree with how the Catholic Church sees human life, but we personally see it as, as soon as conception happens, it is a person.

[/quote]

OK so please define at what point the catholic church considers conception to have taken place.

Excommunication (Latin ex, out of, and communio or communicatio, communion Ã?Â¢?? exclusion from the communion), the principal and severest censure, is a medicinal, spiritual penalty that deprives the guilty Christian of all participation in the common blessings of ecclesiastical society. Being a penalty, it supposes guilt; and being the most serious penalty that the Church can inflict, it naturally supposes a very grave offence. It is also a medicinal rather than a vindictive penalty, being intended, not so much to punish the culprit, as to correct him and bring him back to the path of righteousness.

And this blurb explains the views of excommunication briefly. See the last sentence, what that is saying is that with excommunication it is a devise that is used by the Church to the followers of God to repent of their mortal sins. Once they do that they are allowed to take communion again. Which communion (community of the brothers and sisters of the Church) being very important and being needed, this does not take away the blessings of grace and forgiveness that God gives you. God gave those, his wife cannot take them away.[/quote]

Again, so it is the worst punishment that the Catholic Church can mete out and then they compound it by heaping guilt on you till you break down and come sobbing back into the fold. Real compassionate!

Sloth · October 28, 2009, 11:52pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.

The hypocrisy is in the fact that a mother trying to save her daughter is excommunicated whereas the rapist is not. Mind you, given the history of rape and child abuse by the Catholic Church I guess that is just par for the course.

That’s not hypocrisy. It’s no secret that abortion, a pre-meditated act of murder, is an automatic excommunication. I don’t think you’re using the word correctly.

So is rape and child abuse. All grievous acts against another human being is an automatic excommunication, even if they received the holy orders. There was not now, nor ever any public or private acceptance of child abuse of any kind save for a few corrupt individuals…I am pretty sure most child molesters ain’t Catholic. I’d like to see a chart.

Rape is clearly not an automatic excommunication, the rapist in the case has not been excommunicated. Neither have the hundreds of child rapists that Roman Catholic Church deliberately covered up.

The church did not cover it up, certain people did, but this was not a church sanctioned cover up.
Hundreds? Do you have proof of this claim? A link or anything credible, not something from atheistuniverse.com or somebody who clearly has a bone to pick. Last I heard the numbers were double digits, one is to high, but let’s not exaggerate here.

I’d still be willing to be the vast majority of child rapists are atheists. Religious folk have done some bad things in history, but atheist are still the winners when it comes to crimes against humanity.
Care to discuss history of brutal murders carried out in the name of atheism…the numbers are in the millions and this is referencable in a million places.

The vatican sent a document to all Bishops detailing how to cover such cases up.

And as for numbers, the Church estimates it at roughly 5,000 so probably a lot more than that.

As for your claim that the vast majority of child rapists are atheist, any chance you could back that up? Given that atheists are for the moment in the minority in the population I doubt it very much.

The discussion of Atheist attrocities has been done to death. Yes there were a couple of individuals that committed horrific acts and espoused atheism however the reason the numbers killed were so high had nothing to do with atheism, it was to do with efficiency. There have been far more instances of attrocities in the name of religion.[/quote]

I guess it’s a good for all of us religious that you guys are the minority! Might’ve been able to maximize that effiency until we were extinct.

Sloth · October 29, 2009, 4:10am

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Again, so it is the worst punishment that the Catholic Church can mete out…[/quote]

Gosh, that’s scary! You infidels and heretics must be quivering in your boots. Battery acid, anyone? Anyone?

PRCalDude · October 29, 2009, 12:10am

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Again, so it is the worst punishment that the Catholic Church can mete out…

Gosh, that’s scary! You infidels and heretics must be quivering in your boots. Batter acid, anyone? Anyone?

[/quote]

But infidels and heretics of the various atheist religions of the last century (Maoism, Stalinism, Leninism, etc) have ended up in the gulag.

Brother_Chris · October 29, 2009, 3:54am

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
I wouldn’t really classify myself as a liberal though I wouldn’t put an abortionist on the same level as an axe murderer like you do.

Ah, and that is the rub. Abortion is murder to us, period. It is the deliberate taking of an individual human’s life. Now keeping that in mind, you can see why we find the condemnations of many atheists to be amusing. Not all, there surely are atheist pro-lifers. But, in general. How does one take these criticisms seriously, from those who defend–or at least refuse to oppose-- the premeditated murder of innocent human life? We can’t.

And this is the problem, the abortion was performed in order to save the life of a 9 year old child. The Brazilian Government (which is anti abortion) doesn’t see an issue with that. You see it as murder. You would rather see the girl die an agonising death than allow her an operation which protects her.

I do not support abortion as a birth control method. I do support the use of the pill and condoms. I also support the right of people to choose early term abortions in certain cases.

Most atheists base their decisions on rational ideals. Catholics deliberately suspend rationality in favour of following the Pope’s interpretation of a 1,500 year old badly translated collection of folk tales.

I mean hell if you wanna pull out the logical fallacies, then by golly I know what I am up against. Folk tales, do you know that, were you a live when it happened. I know you do not have proof, I mean you look like some country boy who lives in Mexico so I doubt you are an expert on the validity of the Bible and the Catholic Doctrine.

Well as you can see the direct linkage between stories in the bible and stories in Egyptian, Greek and other mythologies then I think folk tales is a pretty accurate description. The bible was wholesale ripped off from stories that were around at the time. Then bits and pieces were made up to fill in the gaps and explain why certain groups should have rights over certain other groups.

You can call me a country boy if you like, I spent a lot of my childhood on farms. But then again I have also spent a lot of time living in large cities.

I have always been fascinated by religion and have read a lot on the origins of various religions. I wouldn’t call myself an expert though no.[/quote]

Wow that is amazing, maybe because the Bible took place in Egypt and around Greek speaking countries, as well as other places that surrounded the area. You know it’s amazing that maybe two people saw or heard about a story and took it into their own perspective. I mean that never happens in real life does it. In the religion of Ba’al a lot of God’s attributes were given to Ba’al by the people that worshiped the idol Ba’al. They had the same stories, just different reasons etc. So would it not be possible that the Egyptians took these things they saw, that Jews and Gentiles saw and put them into context of their Gods?

Folk tale is not accurate description, just because some atheist professor says that there is similarities in mythology and the Bible does not mean that the Bible ripped off the mythology stories. And to prove my point, how come all those archeologist found proof of the stories in the Bible that no one else was necessarily talking about?

Also, one point on what I have seen atheist do lately, proof texting. I hope you know what it is, I just love how atheist take proof text and say that this is why something is wrong, that this is how the Bible advocates this or that.

Cockney_Blue · October 29, 2009, 4:09am

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
To sum up, the hypocrisy charge is groundless. The Church hasn’t suddenly changed from auto-forgiveness (if unrepentant), to repentance then forgiveness. It hasn’t deviated from it’s teachings.