[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Some of you are forgetting atheists have been, by far, a minority.
16% of the USA is a bigger minority than Jews or gays.
Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.
Because a lot of Atheists even today have to keep quiet about it for fear of persecution.
Oh please! What a load of horseshit.
Would an openly atheist person ever get elected president? In many companies being openly atheist would block your chances of promotion or employment in the first place.
We have an openly stupid person as president and Nasty Pelosi as speaker of the house. It said atheist shared my political views, I’d vote for 'em. Freedom of religion includes the freedom to not have one.
However, I have never seen or heard of atheist discrimination…I have heard of it the other way around, but not people discriminating against atheists…That’s a new one on me.[/quote]
The majority of the US population when polled has stated they would not vote for an atheist. When asked which religion people would not want their daughter marrying into the largest response group was Atheist.
And that is in the suposedly enlightened US complete with separation of Church and State. Try being a public atheist figure in Africa, Italy, or Latin America and you are going to find difficulties
[quote]pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.
I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.
C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?
Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.
Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.
I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?
The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.
The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining.
It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire.
History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.
By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.
Uh, yeah all three religions are know as Abrahamic religions. They are all sourced from the same place. Judaism and Christianity claim decent from his son Issac and islam claims decent from Ishmael.
All view God as creator, hence it’s the same one since there cannot be more than one. [/quote]
The claim by Muhammed which has no direct lineal decent to Ishmal. This is only a claim. Muhammed wanted his belief to be accepted by the religious leaders of his time , Judeism, and Christianity.
What better way to make it seem more related then by making a claim to Abraham. Making a claim to be worshipping the same God does not make it so. When you bend the truth it does not make it the truth. Christiantiy and Judeism are direct descendents of Abraham.
If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.
I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.
On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie.
We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist.
If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way.
You should maybe try reading up a bit on the history of your Religion and Islam.[/quote]
See my post replying to Pat. Maybe you should not talk about things you do not know about.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.
I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.
C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?
Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.
Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.
I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?
The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.
The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining.
It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire.
History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.
By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.
Uh, yeah all three religions are know as Abrahamic religions. They are all sourced from the same place. Judaism and Christianity claim decent from his son Issac and islam claims decent from Ishmael.
All view God as creator, hence it’s the same one since there cannot be more than one.
The claim by Muhammed which has no direct lineal decent to Ishmal. This is only a claim. Muhammed wanted his belief to be accepted by the religious leaders of his time , Judeism, and Christianity.
What better way to make it seem more related then by making a claim to Abraham. Making a claim to be worshipping the same God does not make it so. When you bend the truth it does not make it the truth. Christiantiy and Judeism are direct descendents of Abraham. [/quote]
You could make the same argument about Paul and Judaism. He wanted his own religion so he tagged a few myths onto Judaism and came up with Christianity.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Some of you are forgetting atheists have been, by far, a minority.
16% of the USA is a bigger minority than Jews or gays.
Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.
Because a lot of Atheists even today have to keep quiet about it for fear of persecution.
Oh please! What a load of horseshit.
Would an openly atheist person ever get elected president? In many companies being openly atheist would block your chances of promotion or employment in the first place.[/quote]
I think that anyone that is persecuted is wrong. Believe what you want to believe, but if all atheists have to worry about is the above then I could live with that. There are more than 1,000,000 Christians killed every year around the world for their beliefs. Now that is persecution.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.
I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.
On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie.
We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist.
If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way.
You should maybe try reading up a bit on the history of your Religion and Islam.
See my post replying to Pat. Maybe you should not talk about things you do not know about.[/quote]
Erm…OK, thanks for the advice there oh learned one. You have demonstrated your huge in depth understanding of theological history and I bow to your great knowledge.
You are a Christian, right? And you therefore believe that there is only one God, right? So how can Muslims not be worshiping the same God? Maybe you think they are doing it wrong, but you can’t claim it is a different God unless you want to take your own religion back to it’s polytheistic roots.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Some of you are forgetting atheists have been, by far, a minority.
16% of the USA is a bigger minority than Jews or gays.
Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.
Because a lot of Atheists even today have to keep quiet about it for fear of persecution.
Oh please! What a load of horseshit.
Would an openly atheist person ever get elected president? In many companies being openly atheist would block your chances of promotion or employment in the first place.
We have an openly stupid person as president and Nasty Pelosi as speaker of the house. It said atheist shared my political views, I’d vote for 'em. Freedom of religion includes the freedom to not have one.
However, I have never seen or heard of atheist discrimination…I have heard of it the other way around, but not people discriminating against atheists…That’s a new one on me.
The majority of the US population when polled has stated they would not vote for an atheist. When asked which religion people would not want their daughter marrying into the largest response group was Atheist.
And that is in the suposedly enlightened US complete with separation of Church and State. Try being a public atheist figure in Africa, Italy, or Latin America and you are going to find difficulties[/quote]
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.
I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.
C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?
Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.
Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.
I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?
The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.
The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining.
It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire.
History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.
By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.
Uh, yeah all three religions are know as Abrahamic religions. They are all sourced from the same place. Judaism and Christianity claim decent from his son Issac and islam claims decent from Ishmael.
All view God as creator, hence it’s the same one since there cannot be more than one.
The claim by Muhammed which has no direct lineal decent to Ishmal. This is only a claim. Muhammed wanted his belief to be accepted by the religious leaders of his time , Judeism, and Christianity.
What better way to make it seem more related then by making a claim to Abraham. Making a claim to be worshipping the same God does not make it so. When you bend the truth it does not make it the truth. Christiantiy and Judeism are direct descendents of Abraham.
You could make the same argument about Paul and Judaism. He wanted his own religion so he tagged a few myths onto Judaism and came up with Christianity.[/quote]
I see what you mean, and that is the argument of most Hebrews, but Jesus made the claim and not Paul. Josephus a Hebrew by descent paid by the Roman non-Christian Emperor had writtings about a man named Jesus that lived at the time that Jesus lived.
The main point of Josephus’ book was based on Roman History and this small tidbit was actually put into his book. Josephus had no motive to put this into his writtings, he just reported history. Also the lineage of Jesus all the way back to Adam is pretty rock solid.
This was taken out of Jewish history. The only part of Christianity that is really up for debate is whether Jesus actually rose from the grave. This is what Christianity is or is not. We can only take the eye witness accounts of people of the time and that is where Faith comes into play.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
The cosmological argument states that because every effect has a cause (not true) and nothing is infinite (not necessarily true) then there must be an uncaused first cause which is god.
It is not really an argument at all, it just says we don’t know the answer to this question so we will break our own rules and call the answer God. And even past that it is based false premises.
Now we are getting somewhere. Ok, so lets look at what you said and see if it makes any sense.
First:
The cosmological argument states that because every effect has a cause (not true) and nothing is infinite (not necessarily true) then there must be an uncaused first cause which is god.
So you are asserting that there are causeless effects? An effect by definition must have a cause. But let’s not dwell in semantics; what exists that was not caused by something else?
All I need it one example of something that was not caused or does not have a cause. If you say it you got to back it up.
Now the second part you say “nothing is infinite”. The cosmological argument does not require all things be finite. For instance, light is infinite, yet has a cause.
Causation does not require limits, not does it require time.
Let’s look at the second part that where you say the cosmological argument isn’t really an argument?
You are partially right in that it is more an argument style than a singular argument. It depends on your starting point. However, it is historically, one of if not the most enduring arguments ever known. It’s origin is Aristotle and was not established by religious people to justify religion.
This notion is completely false. Aristotle lived in a polytheistic society, so he had no precedence what so ever for coming to the conclusion he came to. He did it through pure reason. I am not even sure he realized what he discovered. It is a very well reasoned and solid argument. Philosophers have been trying for millenniums to dispel it and have never succeeded.
It does not answer a question we don’t know the answer to it solves a problem. It’s mathematical. You cannot have an infinite regress because it begs the question, which is a logical fallacy.
Now which premises, specifically are incorrect?
To answer the first part I already gave one, motion in gas molecules. There are dozens more.
[/quote]
The motion is gas molecules is not caused by something??? Are you being serious? Perhaps you should try some of the other dozens…The motion in gas molecules is caused by the atoms contained within. The sharing of electrons bonds molecules together. This is not news and it is not a random event.
How is it a cheat? For something to be an initial cause, it cannot itself be caused. The only solution for that is uncaused cause. Something that sits outside the causal chain is not a place marker. It is logic in perfect simplicity. The only thing you can do with argument is prove the premises are incorrect, you cannot prove the conclusion is incorrect in any other way.
[quote]
It also uses a big non-sequitar, just because it is possible for something not to exist it doesn’t follow that it ever didn’t exist, it could have existed infinitely.
Aristotle was a clever guy but he was wrong on a number of things.[/quote]
LOL! There have been many complaints about the cosmological argument, non-sequitur has never been one of them. I am not sure you understand the argument completely. The cosmological argument is not bound by temporal restrictions, though that is a natural manner of thought. Einstein was able to prove simultaneous causation, I.E. The cause and subsequent effect not being bound by time and space through something called the EPR effect.
Here is some light reading on the topic, complete with objections, far better than the ones you proposed. It should help you form better objections. And no the irony of a theist helping an atheist to form better arguments for atheism is not lost on me.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.
I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.
On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie.
We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist.
If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way.
You should maybe try reading up a bit on the history of your Religion and Islam.
See my post replying to Pat. Maybe you should not talk about things you do not know about.
Erm…OK, thanks for the advice there oh learned one. You have demonstrated your huge in depth understanding of theological history and I bow to your great knowledge.
You are a Christian, right? And you therefore believe that there is only one God, right? So how can Muslims not be worshiping the same God? Maybe you think they are doing it wrong, but you can’t claim it is a different God unless you want to take your own religion back to it’s polytheistic roots.[/quote]
I made a statement earlier, but it might be in another thread, because I can not find it. The basis of Judaism and Christianity really starts with Moses who actually wrote down the first 5 books of the Old Testament or Torah as you would like.
Is it possible to think that the polytheistic roots, that you talk about, were nothing more that what people, who perverted by their own lusts and desires, actually only knew pieces of what God was. It was not until Abraham that God’s true self was actually grasped. By bringing all the different correct pieces of the different polytheistic religions of the time was put together and the True God was know.
You are a smart guy CB and it seems that you have done some research on my religion. I am just making an observation and not trying to be mean or disrespectful in what I am about to say. If atheists do not believe in God, why do they debate the existance of God if there is no afterlife and who cares if someone wants to believe in something that does not exist?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.
I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.
C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?
Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.
Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.
I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?
The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.
The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining.
It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire.
History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.
By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.
Uh, yeah all three religions are know as Abrahamic religions. They are all sourced from the same place. Judaism and Christianity claim decent from his son Issac and islam claims decent from Ishmael.
All view God as creator, hence it’s the same one since there cannot be more than one.
The claim by Muhammed which has no direct lineal decent to Ishmal. This is only a claim. Muhammed wanted his belief to be accepted by the religious leaders of his time , Judeism, and Christianity.
What better way to make it seem more related then by making a claim to Abraham. Making a claim to be worshipping the same God does not make it so. When you bend the truth it does not make it the truth. Christiantiy and Judeism are direct descendents of Abraham. [/quote]
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Some of you are forgetting atheists have been, by far, a minority.
16% of the USA is a bigger minority than Jews or gays.
Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.
Because a lot of Atheists even today have to keep quiet about it for fear of persecution.
Oh please! What a load of horseshit.
Would an openly atheist person ever get elected president? In many companies being openly atheist would block your chances of promotion or employment in the first place.
I think that anyone that is persecuted is wrong. Believe what you want to believe, but if all atheists have to worry about is the above then I could live with that. There are more than 1,000,000 Christians killed every year around the world for their beliefs. Now that is persecution.[/quote]
Where are you getting that figure of a Million Christians killed per year?
[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Some of you are forgetting atheists have been, by far, a minority.
16% of the USA is a bigger minority than Jews or gays.
Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.
Because a lot of Atheists even today have to keep quiet about it for fear of persecution.
Oh please! What a load of horseshit.
Would an openly atheist person ever get elected president? In many companies being openly atheist would block your chances of promotion or employment in the first place.
We have an openly stupid person as president and Nasty Pelosi as speaker of the house. It said atheist shared my political views, I’d vote for 'em. Freedom of religion includes the freedom to not have one.
However, I have never seen or heard of atheist discrimination…I have heard of it the other way around, but not people discriminating against atheists…That’s a new one on me.
The majority of the US population when polled has stated they would not vote for an atheist. When asked which religion people would not want their daughter marrying into the largest response group was Atheist.
And that is in the suposedly enlightened US complete with separation of Church and State. Try being a public atheist figure in Africa, Italy, or Latin America and you are going to find difficulties
Did you just say atheism is a religion?[/quote]
No but the people who wrote the poll included it alongside religions. Nice try!
[quote]pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.
I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.
C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?
Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.
Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.
I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?
The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.
The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining.
It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire.
History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.
By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.
Uh, yeah all three religions are know as Abrahamic religions. They are all sourced from the same place. Judaism and Christianity claim decent from his son Issac and islam claims decent from Ishmael.
All view God as creator, hence it’s the same one since there cannot be more than one.
The claim by Muhammed which has no direct lineal decent to Ishmal. This is only a claim. Muhammed wanted his belief to be accepted by the religious leaders of his time , Judeism, and Christianity.
What better way to make it seem more related then by making a claim to Abraham. Making a claim to be worshipping the same God does not make it so. When you bend the truth it does not make it the truth. Christiantiy and Judeism are direct descendents of Abraham.
Can you link up? I don’t see anything resembling what you claim.[/quote]
I am not a big fan of Wiki but this is all I could really find on the internet, but I think it is fair in what it says on both sides. I will have to find the book I read a long time ago in college and i might have sold it back to the bookstore in college. I needed the money.
The Ishmaelites are the only true descendents of Ishmael. The Palestinians are direct descendents of the Philistines in the bible. The Arabs come from southern Arabia. Muhammed was/is an Arab and so has no direct blood/lineage to Abraham, but Muhammed never actually made the claim that he was a descendent of Ishmael.
If we really want to get technical, Jesus did not have Josephs’ seed, so to speak, he did not technically have the blood back to King David. But in Jewish customs if a Father took a child from a woman as his own then that child gets the rights and inheratence of the Father. Jesus was the first born of Joseph, by this custom so he actually gets the rights of the lineage of Joseph which goes back to King David.
If we really want to make our brains ooze then it was actually the woman Sarah that caused all this. She is the one that told Abraham to have relations with Hagar so Abraham could have a son since Sarah was barren.
After Ishmael was born and grown up from what we can gather, Sarah concieves and has a boy. Sarah then demands that Hagar and Ishmael get thrown out. Sarah caused all this, but God wanted Ishmael to succeed. That is why Abraham put a blessing upon Ishmael.
I just wanted to say that Muhammed has made a claim that is hard to actually and historically base in fact, but it is really close.
If a lie is 90% or greater truth it is more believable, but is still a lie.
I have to again say that this has been a great discussion and you guys have me thinking about things that I have not thought about in a long time. I need to brush up on my history.
I would like to say I am a hypocrit just like all other Christians. The ones that think they are not need to compare themselves to God and not all the people of the world.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.
I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.
On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie.
We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist.
If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way.
You should maybe try reading up a bit on the history of your Religion and Islam.
See my post replying to Pat. Maybe you should not talk about things you do not know about.
Erm…OK, thanks for the advice there oh learned one. You have demonstrated your huge in depth understanding of theological history and I bow to your great knowledge.
You are a Christian, right? And you therefore believe that there is only one God, right? So how can Muslims not be worshiping the same God? Maybe you think they are doing it wrong, but you can’t claim it is a different God unless you want to take your own religion back to it’s polytheistic roots.
I made a statement earlier, but it might be in another thread, because I can not find it. The basis of Judaism and Christianity really starts with Moses who actually wrote down the first 5 books of the Old Testament or Torah as you would like.
Is it possible to think that the polytheistic roots, that you talk about, were nothing more that what people, who perverted by their own lusts and desires, actually only knew pieces of what God was. It was not until Abraham that God’s true self was actually grasped. By bringing all the different correct pieces of the different polytheistic religions of the time was put together and the True God was know.
[/quote]
Funnily enough there are Hindu’s that would argue that their religion is monotheistic and the different God’s are actually just different aspects of Shiva.
Most religions throughout history have had a waxing and waning in terms of the number of Gods as multiple Gods coaless into one as, happened with YHWH and El for instance, or individual Gods aspects get separated into discrete entities, as happened with the Catholic trinity
[quote]
You are a smart guy CB and it seems that you have done some research on my religion. I am just making an observation and not trying to be mean or disrespectful in what I am about to say. If atheists do not believe in God, why do they debate the existance of God if there is no afterlife and who cares if someone wants to believe in something that does not exist?[/quote]
I debate the existence of God because I find the evolution of religon fascinating. Beyond pure mental masturbation, religion directly impacts everyone’s lives therefore I have a vested interest in the outcome of the debate.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.
I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.
C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?
Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.
Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.
I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?
The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.
The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining.
It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire.
History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.
By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.
Uh, yeah all three religions are know as Abrahamic religions. They are all sourced from the same place. Judaism and Christianity claim decent from his son Issac and islam claims decent from Ishmael.
All view God as creator, hence it’s the same one since there cannot be more than one.
The claim by Muhammed which has no direct lineal decent to Ishmal. This is only a claim. Muhammed wanted his belief to be accepted by the religious leaders of his time , Judeism, and Christianity.
What better way to make it seem more related then by making a claim to Abraham. Making a claim to be worshipping the same God does not make it so. When you bend the truth it does not make it the truth. Christiantiy and Judeism are direct descendents of Abraham.
Can you link up? I don’t see anything resembling what you claim.
I am not a big fan of Wiki but this is all I could really find on the internet, but I think it is fair in what it says on both sides. I will have to find the book I read a long time ago in college and i might have sold it back to the bookstore in college. I needed the money.
The Ishmaelites are the only true descendents of Ishmael. The Palestinians are direct descendents of the Philistines in the bible. The Arabs come from southern Arabia. Muhammed was/is an Arab and so has no direct blood/lineage to Abraham, but Muhammed never actually made the claim that he was a descendent of Ishmael.
If we really want to get technical, Jesus did not have Josephs’ seed, so to speak, he did not technically have the blood back to King David. But in Jewish customs if a Father took a child from a woman as his own then that child gets the rights and inheratence of the Father. Jesus was the first born of Joseph, by this custom so he actually gets the rights of the lineage of Joseph which goes back to King David.
If we really want to make our brains ooze then it was actually the woman Sarah that caused all this. She is the one that told Abraham to have relations with Hagar so Abraham could have a son since Sarah was barren.
After Ishmael was born and grown up from what we can gather, Sarah concieves and has a boy. Sarah then demands that Hagar and Ishmael get thrown out. Sarah caused all this, but God wanted Ishmael to succeed. That is why Abraham put a blessing upon Ishmael.
I just wanted to say that Muhammed has made a claim that is hard to actually and historically base in fact, but it is really close.
If a lie is 90% or greater truth it is more believable, but is still a lie.
I have to again say that this has been a great discussion and you guys have me thinking about things that I have not thought about in a long time. I need to brush up on my history.
I would like to say I am a hypocrit just like all other Christians. The ones that think they are not need to compare themselves to God and not all the people of the world.
[/quote]
I just want to throw out there that there is absolutely no evidence of the existence of any of them. Mohamed, Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Ismael, Sarah, any of them.
if the essential nature and character of a being are different than another- they cannot be the same being - thus the God of the Christian and the Allah of the Muslim cannot be the same being. Just because you call the being by the same name does not mean that they are the same being. It would be the same as calling every dog Rover because your dog is named Rover. The naming does not equate with being identical.
The sooner this realization is faced, the easier it is to understand the substantially different natures of the faiths involved and the more clearly one can distinguish the vital separations intrinsic in the nature of the deity which they worship and the resultant effects upon its devotees.
Back to the original point of this thread - the Catholic church has maintained its beliefs by adhering to the sanctity of life. The reality is that all human life - regardless of the circumstances of its creation - it sacred - to willingly kill another human it to directly accuse God of making a mistake by allowing that life to even exist.
Thus, recognizing that God does not make mistakes and has a purpose for allowing that life to be created (tenets of the Christian faith) must necessarily conclude that the destruction of a life is a sin - and committing sin and being unrepentant of that sin is grounds for excommunication.
It is a recognition that the person excommunicated has already renounced their faith by their actions and accordingly forcing them out from among the true believers. It is not a judgment - it is an acknowledgment of that person’s own free will choice to no longer believe in the tenets of their professed faith.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Well if you can give me a logical answer, as to how with your own sciences evolution or creation, or whatever you want to argue started the universe if nothing started the process.
Who says nothing started the process? Furthermore, be more specific, what process are you referring to?[/quote]
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.
I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.
C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?
Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.
Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.
I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?
The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.
The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining. It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy.
Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire. History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.
By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.[/quote]
Wait how did the Catholic Church turn their back on someone? I’m not following, they were not shunned. You do understand what excommunication is right?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
It was not until Abraham that God’s true self was actually grasped.[/quote]
I do not think you even understand your own religion. Abraham came before Moses, that is why even the Jews are covered by the grace of God. And scripture is tradition/divine. Another symbolism of Jesus, hundred percent man (tradition), hundred percent God (divine).
