Religion of Forgiveness (Now with 25% More Hypocrisy)

[Makavali]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Well if you can give me a logical answer, as to how with your own sciences evolution or creation, or whatever you want to argue started the universe if nothing started the process.

Or you could admit we don’t know.

Okay you don’t know, however I do have reason to believe that God is where it started. In the Old Testament it says God created the earth. Given this reason in the Bible God is an uncaused-cause, coming from the Alpha and the Omega. He is the highest being, nothing is greater.

So concluding with that information on God that means that God was never created, he just has always been. So, whoever pointed out the cause theory, that all the effects throughout the world needed a cause, but in order for something to move, it needed something to set it in motion, and the only way theoretically is if something which always has been and nothing came before it except itself, started this chain of events. And that starts at God. At least for me.[/quote]

And your assertion that the Bible is infallible comes from…?

[Cockney_Blue]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Well if you can give me a logical answer, as to how with your own sciences evolution or creation, or whatever you want to argue started the universe if nothing started the process.[/quote]

Who says nothing started the process? Furthermore, be more specific, what process are you referring to?

[Cockney_Blue]

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Please explain how your argument differs from ‘I don’t understand this so I will say that God did it.’

And why would the cosmological argument blow my mind? It is deeply flawed and also leaves theists in exactly the same position as they claimm, incorrectly, that atheists are, now they have a cause but what caused the cause? What caused God?

Simple, it has nothing to do with understanding or not understanding, it’t not about filling in the gaps with “God”. It is about deducing that God exists using a priori logic. It deduces that there must necessarily be an uncaused-cause. Something that can cause, but in it self cannot be caused, it necessarily sits out side the causal chain.
The cosmological argument isn’t some much a singular argument, but an argument form. It is not flawed in at all it’s logic and deduction are as philosophically solid as any argument can be.
The only caveat, and most agnostics and athiests who argue against it use this, it that it is impossible to prove all the premises absolutely true; no matter how likely. It’s simply knowledge that is flat unavailable. This leaves the atheist a tiny window to argue against and many times have painted themselves in to corners doing so, like Hume’s argument for a third element in causation or some have even argued that causation does not exist, only moments in time, etc.
The cosmological argument, in it’s eloquent simplicity has survived 2 millenniums of counter arguments still emerging unrefuted. You can try some different angles in counter arguing, but cosmology as a flawed argument is not one of them. The argument is solid, you have to prove it’s actually wrong, that’s a whole other ball game.

The cosmological argument is not even an argument. It is religious people making up a fairy godfather to fix the gaps in science they don’t understand and then sticking their fingers in their ears and going “LALALALALALALALALAL” the second anyone with any reasoning ability points out the huge gaping hole in their argument.

It doesn’t prove their is a God, it proves how self deluding religious people are.

This was the best you can do? Seriously? You try to prove a argument wrong by just saying it’s wrong?

Let’s see if you can do better…How is is a fairy tale? What are the holes? Generally one has to back up what one says with either fact or reason, lets see you you can actually do either.[/quote]

The cosmological argument states that because every effect has a cause (not true) and nothing is infinite (not necessarily true) then there must be an uncaused first cause which is god.

It is not really an argument at all, it just says we don’t know the answer to this question so we will break our own rules and call the answer God. And even past that it is based false premises.

[Cockney_Blue]

[quote]pat wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.

It’s a horribly flawed argument to keep bringing up and it does you position no favors to keep regurgitating it.

Bringing what up?

The whole ‘atheists psychos killed more people than religious psychos’ schtick.

It depends on what the argument is. If one is arguing that people of religious faith have committed the worst atrocities in human history, that argument can be debunked by historical fact, very easily.
If you are arguing that because religious people done bad things there for all religion is a fairly tale, irrelevant and false in it’s belief, then the argument is very flawed.

In this case it was a pissing contest, atheist contention that all Catholics are sexual predators because some people in the church did bad things…Well, I’ll be damned if I am going to let them sweep under the rug the massive crimes against humanity that athiests did. You bring up one, I’ll bring up the other, every time with out fail…If it’s brought up agian I will retort again, 'case when it comes to doing evil things in the world, nobody has ever beaten atheists, they are the kings of human misery on earth.[/quote]

And the retort would be at least Atheists can only cause misery on earth during your lifetime. Religious people can damn you for eternity

[Cockney_Blue]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Well if you can give me a logical answer, as to how with your own sciences evolution or creation, or whatever you want to argue started the universe if nothing started the process.

Or you could admit we don’t know.

Okay you don’t know, however I do have reason to believe that God is where it started. In the Old Testament it says God created the earth. Given this reason in the Bible God is an uncaused-cause, coming from the Alpha and the Omega. He is the highest being, nothing is greater.

So concluding with that information on God that means that God was never created, he just has always been. So, whoever pointed out the cause theory, that all the effects throughout the world needed a cause, but in order for something to move, it needed something to set it in motion, and the only way theoretically is if something which always has been and nothing came before it except itself, started this chain of events. And that starts at God. At least for me.[/quote]

Gas molecules in a sealed container bounce of the walls with nothing setting them in motion. Particle antiparticle pairs spontaneously come into being, not everything needs a cause.

[dmaddox]

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.

I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.

C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?

Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.

Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.

I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?

The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.[/quote]

The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining. It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire. History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.

By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.

[Cockney_Blue]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.

I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.

C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?

Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.

Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.

I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?

The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.

The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining. It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire. History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.

By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.[/quote]

What are you going on about? Islam is just a different interpretation of how to worship the same God. They both developed out of Judeism.

[dmaddox]

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.

I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.

C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?

Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.

Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.

I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?

The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.

The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining. It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire. History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.

By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.

What are you going on about? Islam is just a different interpretation of how to worship the same God. They both developed out of Judeism.[/quote]

If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.

I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.

On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie. We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist. If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way.

[Rza_UK]

I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

[pat]

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Some of you are forgetting atheists have been, by far, a minority.

16% of the USA is a bigger minority than Jews or gays.

Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.

Because a lot of Atheists even today have to keep quiet about it for fear of persecution.[/quote]

Oh please! What a load of horseshit.

[pat]

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy[/quote]

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

[pat]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.

I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.

C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?

Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.

Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.

I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?

The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.

The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining. It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire. History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.

By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.

What are you going on about? Islam is just a different interpretation of how to worship the same God. They both developed out of Judeism.

If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.

I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.

On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie. We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist. If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way. [/quote]

The only people that do not accept evolution are some factions of Bible literal evangelicals. Most everybody else considers it a viable theory.

[pat]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.

I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.

C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?

Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.

Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.

I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?

The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.

The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining. It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire. History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.

By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.[/quote]

Uh, yeah all three religions are know as Abrahamic religions. They are all sourced from the same place. Judaism and Christianity claim decent from his son Issac and islam claims decent from Ishmael.
All view God as creator, hence it’s the same one since there cannot be more than one.

[Cockney_Blue]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.

I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.

On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie. We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist. If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way. [/quote]

You should maybe try reading up a bit on the history of your Religion and Islam.

[Cockney_Blue]

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Some of you are forgetting atheists have been, by far, a minority.

16% of the USA is a bigger minority than Jews or gays.

Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.

Because a lot of Atheists even today have to keep quiet about it for fear of persecution.

Oh please! What a load of horseshit.[/quote]

Would an openly atheist person ever get elected president? In many companies being openly atheist would block your chances of promotion or employment in the first place.

[pat]

[quote]Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:

1. Saying God did it is a cop out, and you know it. You giving an arbitrary answer with no proof or definable origin (lost to time, an unfortunate side effect of bronze age myths that are passed down by word of mouth) and not seeking anything more.

2. Bullshit on the atheists being worse call. You’re so full of shit that when you die, we could give you an enema and bury you in a match box. If you want to stuff your ears and pretend witch burnings, blood libel, the Crusades, and countless other atrocities didn’t happen, then that’s your fucking problem. Don’t spread your history denying here.

The root problem, is that Dogma and Ideology which must be obeyed without question, lead inevitably to horrors. The precedents, both religious and secular are legion. Religion is merely a subset of the primary concept. The antidote, is genuine free thought, skepticism and critical thinking.

Sam Harris hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that the Killing Fields, the Gulag and the Holocaust were not the result of societies that became too attached to critical thinking, or too demanding of evidence.

So what is it that I have a big problem with? DOGMA. With the belief that it is acceptable, even admirable, to believe propositions without good evidence or without good reasons for believing those propositions to be true.

Why don’t you get educated on the matter before discussing it. You sound like an idiot, none of what you said is a retort to anything I said because I did not say those things.

You are responding to things in you imagination, not based in any reality or any of the arguments I made. You wanna be a history deny atheist, go right the fuck ahead. Just don’t waste my fucking time arguing about crap you think I said or meant, that I did not say or mean.

You SAID Atheists are worse, you SAID God answers everything. Quite frankly, you are full of shit and don’t like facts. You’ll invariably bring up the same 3-4 people as examples of atheism gone wrong, then claim victory while ignoring basically every theocracy to have ever existed.[/quote]

I said none those things. You need reading comprehension work. If you presented facts I’d like to see them, because they are conspicuously absent.

My retorts are if you are going to claim that world is a worse place becuase of the actions of those who claim religion, then I will not hesitate to point out the fact that that is not true. That the worst atrocities ever committed in history were done by those who proclaim themselves athiests.

Now you counter with things I did not say but things you think I mean. You are wrong…Quite frankly I think you are in over your head with this discussion. All you want to do is insult and mock, not answer with concise logical answers or retorts.
If you want to just make fun and call names, go ahead, go nuts.

[pat]

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

The cosmological argument states that because every effect has a cause (not true) and nothing is infinite (not necessarily true) then there must be an uncaused first cause which is god.

It is not really an argument at all, it just says we don’t know the answer to this question so we will break our own rules and call the answer God. And even past that it is based false premises.[/quote]

Now we are getting somewhere. Ok, so lets look at what you said and see if it makes any sense.

First:

The cosmological argument states that because every effect has a cause (not true) and nothing is infinite (not necessarily true) then there must be an uncaused first cause which is god.

So you are asserting that there are causeless effects? An effect by definition must have a cause. But let’s not dwell in semantics; what exists that was not caused by something else?

All I need it one example of something that was not caused or does not have a cause. If you say it you got to back it up.
Now the second part you say “nothing is infinite”. The cosmological argument does not require all things be finite. For instance, light is infinite, yet has a cause.

Causation does not require limits, not does it require time.

Let’s look at the second part that where you say the cosmological argument isn’t really an argument?

You are partially right in that it is more an argument style than a singular argument. It depends on your starting point. However, it is historically, one of if not the most enduring arguments ever known. It’s origin is Aristotle and was not established by religious people to justify religion.

This notion is completely false. Aristotle lived in a polytheistic society, so he had no precedence what so ever for coming to the conclusion he came to. He did it through pure reason. I am not even sure he realized what he discovered. It is a very well reasoned and solid argument. Philosophers have been trying for millenniums to dispel it and have never succeeded.

It does not answer a question we don’t know the answer to it solves a problem. It’s mathematical. You cannot have an infinite regress because it begs the question, which is a logical fallacy.
Now which premises, specifically are incorrect?

[pat]

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:

If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.

I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.

On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie.

We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist.

If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way.

You should maybe try reading up a bit on the history of your Religion and Islam.[/quote]

X2, you need to do some history.

[pat]

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Some of you are forgetting atheists have been, by far, a minority.

16% of the USA is a bigger minority than Jews or gays.

Doesn’t change my point. And, historically, I’d say it’s been much less, worldwide. So yeah, there’s not going to be a whole lot of known and notable atheist figures are regimes to point to. Which is why the same one’s continue to pop in this discussion.

Because a lot of Atheists even today have to keep quiet about it for fear of persecution.

Oh please! What a load of horseshit.

Would an openly atheist person ever get elected president? In many companies being openly atheist would block your chances of promotion or employment in the first place.[/quote]

We have an openly stupid person as president and Nasty Pelosi as speaker of the house. It said atheist shared my political views, I’d vote for 'em. Freedom of religion includes the freedom to not have one.

However, I have never seen or heard of atheist discrimination…I have heard of it the other way around, but not people discriminating against atheists…That’s a new one on me.

[Cockney_Blue]

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

The cosmological argument states that because every effect has a cause (not true) and nothing is infinite (not necessarily true) then there must be an uncaused first cause which is god.

It is not really an argument at all, it just says we don’t know the answer to this question so we will break our own rules and call the answer God. And even past that it is based false premises.

Now we are getting somewhere. Ok, so lets look at what you said and see if it makes any sense.

First:

The cosmological argument states that because every effect has a cause (not true) and nothing is infinite (not necessarily true) then there must be an uncaused first cause which is god.

So you are asserting that there are causeless effects? An effect by definition must have a cause. But let’s not dwell in semantics; what exists that was not caused by something else?

All I need it one example of something that was not caused or does not have a cause. If you say it you got to back it up.
Now the second part you say “nothing is infinite”. The cosmological argument does not require all things be finite. For instance, light is infinite, yet has a cause.

Causation does not require limits, not does it require time.

Let’s look at the second part that where you say the cosmological argument isn’t really an argument?

You are partially right in that it is more an argument style than a singular argument. It depends on your starting point. However, it is historically, one of if not the most enduring arguments ever known. It’s origin is Aristotle and was not established by religious people to justify religion.

This notion is completely false. Aristotle lived in a polytheistic society, so he had no precedence what so ever for coming to the conclusion he came to. He did it through pure reason. I am not even sure he realized what he discovered. It is a very well reasoned and solid argument. Philosophers have been trying for millenniums to dispel it and have never succeeded.

It does not answer a question we don’t know the answer to it solves a problem. It’s mathematical. You cannot have an infinite regress because it begs the question, which is a logical fallacy.
Now which premises, specifically are incorrect?
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To answer the first part I already gave one, motion in gas molecules. There are dozens more.

As for the second part, it is not a solution to a mathematical problem it is a place marker. It says, we don’t know therefore God exists. It is a cheat.

It also uses a big non-sequitar, just because it is possible for something not to exist it doesn’t follow that it ever didn’t exist, it could have existed infinitely.

Aristotle was a clever guy but he was wrong on a number of things.