Religion of Forgiveness (Now with 25% More Hypocrisy)

Brother_Chris · November 13, 2009, 5:48am

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Catholic trinity
[/quote]

Explain, last time I checked my religion (Roman Catholic) still believes in one God.

Cockney_Blue · November 13, 2009, 6:42am

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Catholic trinity

Explain, last time I checked my religion (Roman Catholic) still believes in one God.[/quote]

That is why I put the winking smiley.

Rza_UK · November 13, 2009, 10:25am

[quote]pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.[/quote]

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?

Makavali · November 13, 2009, 12:03pm

Sigh.

Judaism --------------> Islam —> Shiite/Sunni

Judaism ------> Christianity ------> Various degrees of crazy.

Also, it pays not to pretend the Bible was ever meant to be taken metaphorically. You choose to do so because your innate sense of morality tells you stoning children and adulterers to death is wrong.

dmaddox · November 13, 2009, 2:03pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
It was not until Abraham that God’s true self was actually grasped.

I do not think you even understand your own religion. Abraham came before Moses, that is why even the Jews are covered by the grace of God. And scripture is tradition/divine. Another symbolism of Jesus, hundred percent man (tradition), hundred percent God (divine).[/quote]

I do understand that Abraham came before Moses, but Moses was the first to write it all down. A tradition of telling stories was finally written down so the story could not change. Have you ever played the telephone game with a bunch of people? The tradition was repeated endlessly unlike the telephone game, so it is unlikely that the story changed. With it written down there was only one story that would be passed down. That is why I stated Moses.

dmaddox · November 13, 2009, 2:07pm

Funnily enough there are Hindu’s that would argue that their religion is monotheistic and the different God’s are actually just different aspects of Shiva.

I have heard this, but when I went to India it is hard to understand that they are all part of the same Shiva. They worship the one parts that fits them. If you do not want the entire god, then what is the point?

dmaddox · November 13, 2009, 2:09pm

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?[/quote]

You did know that the sun was made on the 4th day, so really days are not actual days that you think they are. Adam and Eve has not been disproven. Their names might be different though.

dmaddox · November 13, 2009, 2:11pm

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
if the essential nature and character of a being are different than another- they cannot be the same being - thus the God of the Christian and the Allah of the Muslim cannot be the same being. Just because you call the being by the same name does not mean that they are the same being. It would be the same as calling every dog Rover because your dog is named Rover. The naming does not equate with being identical.

The sooner this realization is faced, the easier it is to understand the substantially different natures of the faiths involved and the more clearly one can distinguish the vital separations intrinsic in the nature of the deity which they worship and the resultant effects upon its devotees.

Back to the original point of this thread - the Catholic church has maintained its beliefs by adhering to the sanctity of life. The reality is that all human life - regardless of the circumstances of its creation - it sacred - to willingly kill another human it to directly accuse God of making a mistake by allowing that life to even exist.

Thus, recognizing that God does not make mistakes and has a purpose for allowing that life to be created (tenets of the Christian faith) must necessarily conclude that the destruction of a life is a sin - and committing sin and being unrepentant of that sin is grounds for excommunication.

It is a recognition that the person excommunicated has already renounced their faith by their actions and accordingly forcing them out from among the true believers. It is not a judgment - it is an acknowledgment of that person’s own free will choice to no longer believe in the tenets of their professed faith.[/quote]

Well said.

pat · November 13, 2009, 2:38pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:

If they came out of Judeism, why do the Muslims hate the Hebrews and the Christians? I dont think it is the same God that they worship. If it was there would be a lot more peace and a lot less Jihad.

I will admit I have not read all of the thread, but the discussion here is really good of what I have read.

On the creation vs evolution discussion all I have to say is that the Atheists are correct for now. The Subjective Truth, that is presented in the Bible, is the only subjective proof that will one day become Objective Proof or a lie.

We Christians believe that one day Jesus will return and it is our Faith that holds on to that truth. Once he does return then all will see that we were correct. If we are not correct then we just die. IMO I would rather hold on to the hope that Jesus is who he said he is, then just exist.

If I am wrong nothing will happen, but if I am right all that do not believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven will go to hell. That is how it is spelled out in the Bible. It is very Black and White, and in this day of gray laws and loop holes people just cant believe that there is not another way.

You should maybe try reading up a bit on the history of your Religion and Islam.

See my post replying to Pat. Maybe you should not talk about things you do not know about.

Erm…OK, thanks for the advice there oh learned one. You have demonstrated your huge in depth understanding of theological history and I bow to your great knowledge.

You are a Christian, right? And you therefore believe that there is only one God, right? So how can Muslims not be worshiping the same God? Maybe you think they are doing it wrong, but you can’t claim it is a different God unless you want to take your own religion back to it’s polytheistic roots.

I made a statement earlier, but it might be in another thread, because I can not find it. The basis of Judaism and Christianity really starts with Moses who actually wrote down the first 5 books of the Old Testament or Torah as you would like.

Is it possible to think that the polytheistic roots, that you talk about, were nothing more that what people, who perverted by their own lusts and desires, actually only knew pieces of what God was. It was not until Abraham that God’s true self was actually grasped. By bringing all the different correct pieces of the different polytheistic religions of the time was put together and the True God was know.

Funnily enough there are Hindu’s that would argue that their religion is monotheistic and the different God’s are actually just different aspects of Shiva.
[/quote]
Actually this is correct. They are monotheistic. Language issues make there manifestations of Vishna (not Shiva, she’d be one of the said manifestations) in to the word “god”. They do not see the manifestations as different gods, but different manifestations of the same God.

[quote]
Most religions throughout history have had a waxing and waning in terms of the number of Gods as multiple Gods coaless into one as, happened with YHWH and El for instance, or individual Gods aspects get separated into discrete entities, as happened with the Catholic trinity

You are a smart guy CB and it seems that you have done some research on my religion. I am just making an observation and not trying to be mean or disrespectful in what I am about to say. If atheists do not believe in God, why do they debate the existance of God if there is no afterlife and who cares if someone wants to believe in something that does not exist?

I debate the existence of God because I find the evolution of religon fascinating. Beyond pure mental masturbation, religion directly impacts everyone’s lives therefore I have a vested interest in the outcome of the debate.[/quote]

Rza_UK · November 13, 2009, 2:41pm

lol! where has that talking snake gone?

pat · November 13, 2009, 2:41pm

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?[/quote]

Much more than proving Bible stories historically incorrect. The Bible is a philosophical book of religion, not a history book. If you want history, study archeology. While the Bible may contain smatterings of history, it’s purpose isn’t to be a book of full of historical facts.

pat · November 13, 2009, 2:46pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, no! A voluntary and private association has been sundered! Rofl. Come on, maybe you don’t like it, and maybe you’ll do your best to cover up for Islam as much as you can here, but noone buys it. The creators of South Park lampoon Christ constantly, yet the riots seem to be absent. The brits didn’t want to let Wilders in their country for fear of Islam.

I’m not a Roman Catholic, but I have a hard time seeing this as analogous to honor killing and the other stuff in Islam.

C_B, was this the foil you had for our arguments on the other thread?

Not at all. So called ‘Honour’ killing is absolutely disgusting. This was just something I found on a google search and I put it up as a spin of the religion of Peace thread.

Modern Islam is way more insane than modern Christianity however there are plenty of Christians who want to make the Christianity Good, Islam Evil simplification when they are really far more closely related than followers of either would like to admit. They are branches of the same stupid tree.

I must apologize for my misunderstanding of what you were trying to say. However, I do not understand how the Catholic Church, who’s most controversial issue from the world’s POV is that we say you should not use condoms, and the Muslims is close to the same thing? And how did it come from the same “stupid” tree?

The two religions come from the same root, worship the same god and share many customs. Islam is just a different branch of the worship of YHW than Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity or Protestantism.

The 2 religions do not come from the same root. If it did Islam would include the Hebrews and the Christians. Oh yeah. The Koran does say to befriend the Hebrews and the Christians at the begining.

It only changed its tune at the end when the Jews and Christians told Muhammed he was preaching blasphemy. Islam was a way for a man to unify a people under one religion. Kind of like the Hebrews/Israel, and the Christians/Roman Empire.

History shows that a people united under one religion has a better chance of becoming a world power. If the Arabs would unite instead of bickering about whose Koran is correct they might actually become a world power.

By the way Jesus did not turn his back on the people in this story. The Catholic Church did. Jesus still loves all of us. The question is how are You all going to receive him.

Uh, yeah all three religions are know as Abrahamic religions. They are all sourced from the same place. Judaism and Christianity claim decent from his son Issac and islam claims decent from Ishmael.
All view God as creator, hence it’s the same one since there cannot be more than one.

The claim by Muhammed which has no direct lineal decent to Ishmal. This is only a claim. Muhammed wanted his belief to be accepted by the religious leaders of his time , Judeism, and Christianity.

What better way to make it seem more related then by making a claim to Abraham. Making a claim to be worshipping the same God does not make it so. When you bend the truth it does not make it the truth. Christiantiy and Judeism are direct descendents of Abraham. [/quote]

So far, the only person that I have ever heard of saying islam is not an Abrahamic religion is you. I do not believe you have to directly decent from the line to be considered abrahamic, but to continue in the tradition. Beside, there are many share stories between the Torah and the Koran. I’ll leave it at that. I am not saying your wrong, I just don’t see any factual evidence to back it up.

Rza_UK · November 13, 2009, 2:55pm

But is’nt the Bible “gods word”? it should be full of facts?

pat · November 13, 2009, 3:02pm

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
But is’nt the Bible “gods word”? it should be full of facts?[/quote]

Yes. No. Why would God have to present facts that are easily attainable? There are facts in the Bible, but it isn’t a history book. It’s a book to communicate the many facets of God. Study Archeology if you want to dig up dirt on ancient man and societies. The Bible may have some of that info, but it isn’t to provide that info. It uses the facts to tell truths about God. You also must consider the audiences these were written for, to get full understanding of what is being said. If your looking at it as a history book, your screwed. Your facts will be all kinds of fucked up.

Rza_UK · November 13, 2009, 3:13pm

[quote]pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
But is’nt the Bible “gods word”? it should be full of facts?

Yes. No. Why would God have to present facts that are easily attainable? There are facts in the Bible, but it isn’t a history book. It’s a book to communicate the many facets of God. Study Archeology if you want to dig up dirt on ancient man and societies. The Bible may have some of that info, but it isn’t to provide that info. It uses the facts to tell truths about God. You also must consider the audiences these were written for, to get full understanding of what is being said. If your looking at it as a history book, your screwed. Your facts will be all kinds of fucked up. [/quote]

Well if the bible was factually correct then I would be a beleiver, but I just cant trust a book that has so much wrong with it, no matter who it was written for.

pat · November 13, 2009, 3:43pm

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
But is’nt the Bible “gods word”? it should be full of facts?

Yes. No. Why would God have to present facts that are easily attainable? There are facts in the Bible, but it isn’t a history book. It’s a book to communicate the many facets of God. Study Archeology if you want to dig up dirt on ancient man and societies. The Bible may have some of that info, but it isn’t to provide that info. It uses the facts to tell truths about God. You also must consider the audiences these were written for, to get full understanding of what is being said. If your looking at it as a history book, your screwed. Your facts will be all kinds of fucked up.

Well if the bible was factually correct then I would be a beleiver, but I just cant trust a book that has so much wrong with it, no matter who it was written for.[/quote]

It’s a book of truth, not a book of fact.

Cockney_Blue · November 13, 2009, 3:50pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Funnily enough there are Hindu’s that would argue that their religion is monotheistic and the different God’s are actually just different aspects of Shiva.

I have heard this, but when I went to India it is hard to understand that they are all part of the same Shiva. They worship the one parts that fits them. If you do not want the entire god, then what is the point?[/quote]

Well Catholics do the same, they just call them saints instead of Gods. I am travelling over the weekend, best put my St Christopher on etc.

Sloth · November 13, 2009, 3:55pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Funnily enough there are Hindu’s that would argue that their religion is monotheistic and the different God’s are actually just different aspects of Shiva.

I have heard this, but when I went to India it is hard to understand that they are all part of the same Shiva. They worship the one parts that fits them. If you do not want the entire god, then what is the point?

Well Catholics do the same, they just call them saints instead of Gods. I am travelling over the weekend, best put my St Christopher on etc.[/quote]

Except saints are only models with no power of their own. They can only pray–to the same God we pray to–on our behalf.

dmaddox · November 13, 2009, 4:09pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Funnily enough there are Hindu’s that would argue that their religion is monotheistic and the different God’s are actually just different aspects of Shiva.

I have heard this, but when I went to India it is hard to understand that they are all part of the same Shiva. They worship the one parts that fits them. If you do not want the entire god, then what is the point?

Well Catholics do the same, they just call them saints instead of Gods. I am travelling over the weekend, best put my St Christopher on etc.

Except saints are only models with no power of their own. They can only pray–to the same God we pray to–on our behalf. [/quote]

I think CB just opened a huge bomb in this thread.

I am not a big fan of asking someone who is dead to pray for me. I understand the need to have someone interceed for you, just not talking to the dead. I would prefer to go to the High Priest in Jesus to go to God. No better place to start than with God’s son. I am ok with talking with a priest or pastor if you would like them to pray for you or to keep you accountable.

The Saints and Mary ideal of the Catholic Church is really hard for me to grasp on to. Are the Saints and Mary as dead as your Great, Great, Great Grandmother/Grandfather?

I really want to understand this and I in no way am looking to get into a fight. I just want knowledge.

Cockney_Blue · November 13, 2009, 4:14pm

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote: